It's the strength in the arms required, to hold the steering wheel an extra 10 degrees of understeer around every bend 
S3 Understeer, Mermaids and Unicorns
- Thread starter Flatoot
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It's the strength in the arms required, to hold the steering wheel an extra 10 degrees of understeer around every bend
You sure it's not from something else that builds up the muscles in your arms?
PanamaS3
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You could equally just leave this here:
Buyer's Remorse (BR): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyer's_remorse
While we are at it.....this belongs here too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_retentiveness
It never was
The thread (I think) is all about whether we imagine that the S3 understeers, or not!
Which , as we all know, does!
I think my point was that we are arguing whether a S3 understeers more readily than a Golf R, thus making it an inferior handling car which therefore results in slower lap times. You have evidenced that this is true by posting the lap times, but is 0.7% slower around a race track really worth banging on about. Can you really justify that this amount of difference is worth arguing over, injecting this point at every possible opportunity even on topics that it isn't needed? I mean come on, that difference even if both runs were on the same day, by the same person one after the other it could easily be explained by something as simple as a change in conditions. I'm sure the Golf R does handle better, I'm sure it doesn't understeer as easily as an S3 but as clearly evidenced by yourself it makes ****** all difference in the hands of someone who can drive and placed on a track. I mean, do I really care that my £31k car (sorry V8 I didn't hit the options list that hard) is 0.7 - 1.2% slower round a race track that it will never ever visit? Well to be honest, no I don't as I just can't get my head round it being that big a deal.
So if we all agree that the S3 understeers easier than other cars and that in the grand scheme of things no one really gives a flying fish stick as most poeple won't even notice it, can this be put to bed?
There are, of course (as posted several times) more differences that just the understeer issue - there's the steering issue, and the suspension issue, all of which add up to how a car feels, whether it rewards to subtle inputs, if there's any finesse in a cars handling etc. etc. which we have all covered before,
Neither the Golf R or the S3 are really 'drivers cars' (ask those that have gone from a S3 to say, a Cayman, of which there are quite a few) - but one is certainly more fun and rewarding. The understeer issue is just the tip of the iceberg.
There are plenty on here that will tell you that track times don't matter and are irrelevant (except when it suits them) - and in the specific character of understeer, you can have a Fiesta ST which will turn out a slower track time than a S3, but will be so much more pleasurable and engaging to drive around that same track.
It can be put to bed anytime - sadly........ there are some that will dispute this till their dying breath.
Neither the Golf R or the S3 are really 'drivers cars' (ask those that have gone from a S3 to say, a Cayman, of which there are quite a few) - but one is certainly more fun and rewarding. The understeer issue is just the tip of the iceberg.
There are plenty on here that will tell you that track times don't matter and are irrelevant (except when it suits them) - and in the specific character of understeer, you can have a Fiesta ST which will turn out a slower track time than a S3, but will be so much more pleasurable and engaging to drive around that same track.
It can be put to bed anytime - sadly........ there are some that will dispute this till their dying breath.
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PanamaS3
Registered User
There are, of course (as posted several times) more differences that just the understeer issue - there's the steering issue, and the suspension issue, all of which add up to how a car feels, whether it rewards to subtle inputs, if there's any finesse in a cars handling etc. etc. which we have all covered before,
Neither the Golf R or the S3 are really 'drivers cars' (ask those that have gone from a S3 to say, a Cayman, of which there are quite a few) - but one is certainly more fun and rewarding. The understeer issue is just the tip of the iceberg.
There are plenty on here that will tell you that track times don't matter and are irrelevant (except when it suits them) - and in the specific character of understeer, you can have a Fiesta ST which will turn out a slower track time than a S3, but will be so much more pleasurable and engaging to drive around that same track.
It can be put to bed anytime - sadly........ there are some that will dispute this till their dying breath.
@veeeight what are you buying next and when?
PanamaS3
Registered User
perhaps we can point you towards a "few" threads on this forum that might help
How about a S3 facelift?
Or a RS3 non facelift?
Problem is, I'm not sure the RS3 is worth the £10k premium over the S3
Or a RS3 non facelift?
Problem is, I'm not sure the RS3 is worth the £10k premium over the S3
I'm a S3 owner get me out of here..........
as long as the exit is in a straight line I should be ok unless there are a few bumps and undulations in the road!!!!!!
Spur of the moment cash purchase to tide me over until I found what I wanted.
Where I live the roads are excellent and most journeys the car is very good particularly over winter passes, at 2am making progress back from the airport in rural Europe I just get a little disappointed...........a bit like the early Civic Type R but opposite, in the mood I found the 2nd gen CTR very good but frustrating the rest of the time.
Mine only goes from home to the airport and back, nothing else, and because it is good at that I still have it.
How about discussing whether my S3 has more understeer with winter tyres fitted than summer tyres??
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Yeah sure, I'll chew the cud with you on tyres...........................don't know much about them to be honest but then again I reckon I can hold my own with you seeing as you throw £30k at a car on the spur of the moment.........................geez, I thought I was talking to folks on this forum who had a bit of nouse about them!! lol
Tony1982
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This is how Flatoot and Veeeight's arms look after battling it out on their keyboards for the 7 days on this thread!
I spent 160 miles in the car on Friday, the second half along some very fast but twisty B-Roads (for anyone that knows the South East coast, I came inland cross-country from Lydd towards Tunbridge Wells through Tenterden, Goudhurst...) and in the middle of the day they were empty. I have to say (and @veeeight and I have absolutely no beef and get on very well thanks!) that the car was superb - never in any danger of understeering, was able to sequence bends and straights smoothly and make really good progress. What really impressed me was a few times I went into surface water (damp not wet) on corners due to a heavy morning downpour before sun and high winds. Didn't miss a beat. However I really do feel the Eibach springs have had a big impact on this - lowering, stiffening and changing it to a slightly nose-down stance which of course helps turn in and body positioning. I can't really comment for the standard chassis as the springs were fitted not long after I bought the car and certainly before I'd started really pushing it about. I also think the additional power and torque from the tuning box has taken it closer to the chassis limits and makes it a bit more playful.
Long and the short of it though is that even though it may not be dynamically as polished as the R, it's a very capable cross-country weapon and 9.5 times out of 10 it won't let you down, even with 375-ish HP on a crappy UK b-road!
Long and the short of it though is that even though it may not be dynamically as polished as the R, it's a very capable cross-country weapon and 9.5 times out of 10 it won't let you down, even with 375-ish HP on a crappy UK b-road!
TheFiftheElement
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Haha, having read through all 9 pages, and with not a lot to do at work, and since I am one of those who sold my S3 as it didn't quite hit the spot, thought I could add a little to this thread.
I owned a S-tronic Sportback, with no mag ride, and now have a Boxster S with PDK (quite prepared for the hairdressers joke hehe).
I had a few frustrations with the S3, mainly pogo/handling behavior, throttle response and lack of character. Unfortunately I don't drive that much, and 80% of my driving is around town, with the occasional hoon. I guess as understeer is the topic, I will restrict my thoughts to that.
Did I get the S3 to understeer, yes I did That's more than likely down to my poor driving though, too much throttle, too soon, with too much steering angle I'm not an advocate of taking a car to it's limits on public roads as I think it's dangerous and the wrong place to do it, but do like to drive quickly when conditions allow (dry, quiet roads etc.) and my S3 just wasn't as good as I had hoped.
I think you can tell a lot of how a car is set up, at speeds/conditions well below losing grip at either the front or the back. Does it turn in sharply (this could be at 5/30/60 mph), does an application of throttle sharpen a line, or make the car wash a bit wide. Does a car handle a series of S-bends well, or are you conscious of weigh transfer or slack in the suspension or poor re-bound behaviour. I think you can feel this whether you are on the limit or not. Is a car light on it's feet, is it twitchy reacting to road surfaces, or is it a bit mushy when you turn the wheel? Sure a car can go wherever you point it, but what attitude does it have when you do that? You can tell this at town speeds, miles away from driving like a nutter
For me, my S3 was very quick but had to be driven in a typical slow in, fast out hot hatch way, wait until your almost in a straight line before feeding the throttle back in, unless you wanted to feel a push towards the outside front tyre and washing slightly wide. I'd have liked it to feel sharper, and when you applied a bit of throttle, it tightening the line.
I have no doubt that the S3 driven at 8/10th's is quicker than 95% of cars out there. I wouldn't say it handles badly, it's just set up to be safe and secure. Which is probably what most Audi S drivers want. I think I've said it before, the S3 is a hatch with a powerful engine, it's not a sports car.
I would recommend S3 owners to go try something set up to be a sports car from day one, Cayman, Boxster, Elise and feel the increase in response and attitude on the road, even at 30 mph. Just to give a reference to how a typical hot hatch is set up.
I agree that a Golf R being 0.7 seconds round a track means very little in the real world and certainly shouldn't form the basis for buying a car, it should have as little input as BHP and 0-60 really.
So, to sum up, can you make an S3 understeer - yes, but you can drive around it's limitations or understand how the car is set up, and don't ask it to do things it isn't going to do. Is it the sharpest set up of the hot hatches - no. Should that let it spoil your ownership, certainly not. I don't think it's the best choice for people who want to feel a car move under them, or for track work, but as a solid 8/10's, quick, safe, secure hatch/saloon it's pretty good
Whether this is what you expect from Audi and it's range of S cars, is entirely subjective.
I owned a S-tronic Sportback, with no mag ride, and now have a Boxster S with PDK (quite prepared for the hairdressers joke hehe).
I had a few frustrations with the S3, mainly pogo/handling behavior, throttle response and lack of character. Unfortunately I don't drive that much, and 80% of my driving is around town, with the occasional hoon. I guess as understeer is the topic, I will restrict my thoughts to that.
Did I get the S3 to understeer, yes I did
That's more than likely down to my poor driving though, too much throttle, too soon, with too much steering angle I'm not an advocate of taking a car to it's limits on public roads as I think it's dangerous and the wrong place to do it, but do like to drive quickly when conditions allow (dry, quiet roads etc.) and my S3 just wasn't as good as I had hoped.I think you can tell a lot of how a car is set up, at speeds/conditions well below losing grip at either the front or the back. Does it turn in sharply (this could be at 5/30/60 mph), does an application of throttle sharpen a line, or make the car wash a bit wide. Does a car handle a series of S-bends well, or are you conscious of weigh transfer or slack in the suspension or poor re-bound behaviour. I think you can feel this whether you are on the limit or not. Is a car light on it's feet, is it twitchy reacting to road surfaces, or is it a bit mushy when you turn the wheel? Sure a car can go wherever you point it, but what attitude does it have when you do that? You can tell this at town speeds, miles away from driving like a nutter
For me, my S3 was very quick but had to be driven in a typical slow in, fast out hot hatch way, wait until your almost in a straight line before feeding the throttle back in, unless you wanted to feel a push towards the outside front tyre and washing slightly wide. I'd have liked it to feel sharper, and when you applied a bit of throttle, it tightening the line.
I have no doubt that the S3 driven at 8/10th's is quicker than 95% of cars out there. I wouldn't say it handles badly, it's just set up to be safe and secure. Which is probably what most Audi S drivers want. I think I've said it before, the S3 is a hatch with a powerful engine, it's not a sports car.
I would recommend S3 owners to go try something set up to be a sports car from day one, Cayman, Boxster, Elise and feel the increase in response and attitude on the road, even at 30 mph. Just to give a reference to how a typical hot hatch is set up.
I agree that a Golf R being 0.7 seconds round a track means very little in the real world and certainly shouldn't form the basis for buying a car, it should have as little input as BHP and 0-60 really.
So, to sum up, can you make an S3 understeer - yes, but you can drive around it's limitations or understand how the car is set up, and don't ask it to do things it isn't going to do. Is it the sharpest set up of the hot hatches - no. Should that let it spoil your ownership, certainly not. I don't think it's the best choice for people who want to feel a car move under them, or for track work, but as a solid 8/10's, quick, safe, secure hatch/saloon it's pretty good
Whether this is what you expect from Audi and it's range of S cars, is entirely subjective.
SimpsonTide985
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It really depends subjectively on the driver's interpretation of what understeer is. Some people have greater sensitivities to it and can notice it immediately while other people may not and not even acknowledge it.
Matty_S3&S5
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Understeer / Lift off oversteer / all wheel drift... it all comes down to how you feel the car and drive the car as a driver. Turn all the babysitting controls of the car off and enter a roundabout at a moderate pace in the wet and you will feel the car go straight on regardless. Turn the babysitting control back on and do the same and car goes round the roundabout with no issues as the car is doing all the work for you by applying independent braking and speed blah blah blah you just steer and exit as normal.
Any of you done the Audi drive day they throw in at purchase? (maybe just here in Oz) but they deliberately make you understeer on a wet track so you can feel what the car is doing with and without the babysitter switched on. Was fun in a Q7 and A7 and they had an S3 there too and they all did it...even the new RS6.
At the end of the day, as Simpson above says, some feel it some dont.
Any of you done the Audi drive day they throw in at purchase? (maybe just here in Oz) but they deliberately make you understeer on a wet track so you can feel what the car is doing with and without the babysitter switched on. Was fun in a Q7 and A7 and they had an S3 there too and they all did it...even the new RS6.
At the end of the day, as Simpson above says, some feel it some dont.
wtf - no drive day included for me - and don;t feel like pay $1,000 for one either !
yep S3 understeers as you said, just drive accordingly - slower in, faster out - but definitely looking for a RWD car next time round.
Matty_S3&S5
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Thats a shame mate - was a good day and the R8 day is awesome! Done the sailing day on the Audi America's cup boat too. Guess it comes down to the relationship with the stealership. Got my name down on the RS driving week over in Germany for Jan 2018 (as will be back home in the UK this xmas for a cold one; 35+ degress on xmas day doesnt feel right) where you drive all the RS cars on a frozen lake up in the mountains. Think its about $6000 (AUD) for the week.
It definitely understeers near limits, but even before remotely close to it's limit, at faster corners, you can still feel the weight going to the front outer wheel and really hurting the turn in. I recently installed the H&R rear sway bar, and it's makes the world of differences! Much much sharper turn in and the weight is more evenly distributed to the rear. No more understeers and now drives exactly the way I wanted, it's a must mod IMO...
Actually, I only installed rear H&R sway only, and kept the front stock.. That's how you alter the weight distribution toward the rear by limiting the rear flex. With the front also upgraded, you will see much less effect IMO, and it will still understeers but just with tighter body flex..
Try going back to stock front, you'll see how big of a difference it makes, I'm not saying it will be tail happy or anything like that, but you wouldn't believe how sharp the turn in is with this setup. And I could toss the car into any corner at much higher speed and a little slight correction if any at all before full throttling out...
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I put RS4 swaybars on my old A4 quattro and noticed the effect straight away..I had three other mates with A4's who wanted to get it done so we put together a little group buy with our local dealer and got 30% discount..
I did the H&Rs on my R32 (now that's a car that understeers!) and they transformed it. As above, though, I'd only do the rear one next time, as you want a softer front end to make sure the tyres stay in contact with the tarmac.
Has anyone on here fitted an after-market LSD, I see on Quaife have one for the S3.
My current car is a Megane RS250 which has one and it is great fun being able to correct the car when going through a corner, by putting your foot down. As counterintuitive as that sounds in a front wheel drive car.
I was wondering if the LSD and the cars electronic version would play nicely together or conspire to chuck you in the nearest ditch.
BTW am not interloping, I am currently waiting for them to build my S3 Cab.
My current car is a Megane RS250 which has one and it is great fun being able to correct the car when going through a corner, by putting your foot down. As counterintuitive as that sounds in a front wheel drive car.
I was wondering if the LSD and the cars electronic version would play nicely together or conspire to chuck you in the nearest ditch.
BTW am not interloping, I am currently waiting for them to build my S3 Cab.
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I have a Quaife diff on my manual S3 8P.
It does make a big difference to traction,especially on mapped/modified cars,but it's worth remembering a few things:
Torque biassing diffs like the Quaife are very effective at finding traction,and directing torque to that wheel,so there is a small tendency to pull you in that direction.
That tendency is nowhere near as bad as it used to be,and Audi's dead steering also masks it somewhat.
The diff will fight with Audi's TC to a moderate degree,especially on wet or slippery surfaces,and you may want to run(as I did before changing the ECU to something better),to run with the TC disengaged.
It won't chuck you in a ditch,but it is a bit of an eyeopener if you are running both.
Overall,I think it is a worthwhile benefit over the open diff,and as I said,more so as power and torque increase.
Be interested to hear your thoughts on the Meg 250 against the S3 when you've had it a few months.
IMO the Megane is a vastly superior drive and far more rewarding when doing so.
The chassis, suspension, diff combination in the Megane really is perfection.
I nearly threw the Golf into a hedge on the test drive, as I had a Renaultsport Clio at the time and was used to cornering at silly speeds. That's why it ended up getting new ARBs!
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Good to see this old chestnut doing the rounds again.............oh boy, we had some laughs on this one!! lol
As a few have already said this is totally down to user perception and driving style. We've got boy racers and church pastors..............it can't possibly be all things to all men (and ladies).
As a few have already said this is totally down to user perception and driving style. We've got boy racers and church pastors..............it can't possibly be all things to all men (and ladies).
Had 4 Renaultsport Clio's in my time.
When Renaultsport get it right, they get it right!
It is indeed a great car to drive when you are in the mood for it.
When you are not, it is dam uncomfortable and as basic as a weekend away at Butlins.
Looking forward to having a car for all moods and feeding my midlife crisis by getting the cab
I saw a S3 Cab at the weekend.
They certainly look great.
I never got tired of my Megane. I did have a second car at that time though so didn't drive it all the time.
After moving from Renault to Audi, for me there's something special about being back to basics. I doubt the new Renaultsport will be as basic, which for me is a shame.
Going back to what you said, would you recommend rear ARB then Simon?
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When I changed them on my A4 for RS4 versions they made a significant difference..Standard were 22mm dia and the RS4 were 25mm dia I think..
So it might be worth fitting the RS3 version if they are bigger dia??
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