S3 Understeer, Mermaids and Unicorns

veeeight · Dec 8, 2015

edit:

Actually, I was wrong (I know, right?) about which was my very first response to you back in August. Here it is:

veeeight said:
The lessons in understeer are all very well.
However, what the OP (and myself plus others) is referring to:
The S3 - compared to cars that we have both previously owned - and compared to some other cars on the market today - understeers more readily given the same tyres, roads, roundabouts, corners, conditions.
Couple this with the poor damping on the S3 - a bumpy or irregular surfaced corner will see the tyres lose contact with the tarmac and all the grip is immediately reduced - sooner than compared to another car on the same corner with identical conditions and factors.

It's a relative comparison, not absolute comparison.

From Day 1 - "It's a relative comparison, not absolute comparison."

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-understeering-in-wet.223943/

steeve · Dec 8, 2015

Should I return mine to the dealer then? It does understeer and the handling on mine is good, but staggering? I've had quite a few heart in the mouth moments on less than flat bendy local country roads. It pitches and bounces like a bouncy castle with the regular feeling that not all four wheels are in contact with the earth. When really pressing on I can feel the front tyres scrubbing on corners (wet or dry roads) as the fronts are the first thing to lose traction.
This is not my imagination I can assure you.
On other 'performance' cars I've found them to be much more controlled, but as I've said before I knew the S3 had these traits before I bought one so its all I expected and overall I love it. But I agree with veeeeeight the handling should be better.

I honestly believe that Audi spend too much time round the Ring and pay too little attention to setting the car up for normal road conditions. I find mine superb on smooth roads, but I see it still loses time to 'other' cars when circuit tested.

Perhaps my experiences may differ from others as I live in the country and quite a bit of my driving is on B and unclassified roads whose surfaces and inherent flatness are not as good as we'd really like.

S3Alex · Dec 8, 2015

steeve said:
Should I return mine to the dealer then? It does understeer and the handling on mine is good, but staggering?....

Some here will dispute that with their dying breath......good luck convincing them.

thebluefox · Dec 8, 2015

@Flatoot - You speak so much of driving sensibly, and within the highway code. Why on earth have you bought an S3 if you obviously drive so carefully everywhere? Status? Midlife crisis?

veeeight said:
Brilliantly to middle aged guys and above

Oi - I'm only 28!

Martinbanshee · Dec 8, 2015

The big problem here is one persons 'on the limit' is another persons 'just warming up'.

So yeah, it understeers a bit (it's an Audi), but not everyone will discover the understeer so easily.
It doesn't make it a slow car though, I find it predictable which in turn leads to confidence pushing on (yeah, really!), it's really difficult to unsettle it, even at 120+ on bends.
I guess some like a car that sticks like glue and others are happy feeling it move about underneath them and it's really how you adapt to that which will dictate your max comfortable speed on the road in the S3.

Ultimately, this is more a matter of who bought the right car for them and who didn't as a Fiesta ST might have less understeer but would it get you from Aberdeen to Ballater quicker than an S3? No chance!

Dandanfings · Dec 8, 2015

Wow this thread is going a bit mad.

Question: does s3 suffer with understeer?
Answer: yes it does

My 3 step solution to solving most of the understeer:

Step 1: spend £250 on rear anti roll bar
Step 2: 30 mins on a ramp switching roll bars
Step 3: Drive into corner and be amazed by the lack of understeer.

Can lock the thread now

veeeight · Dec 8, 2015

Martinbanshee said:
I guess some like a car that sticks like glue and others are happy feeling it move about underneath them and it's really how you adapt to that

Sure we've discussed this many time before Martin, but this isn't what the crux of the issue is, I'm sure most drivers seeking fun would be happy and delighted to have a car move around underneath them, but in this instance, the crux is - does the S3 reach the limits of grip sooner than other similar cars.

There are other additional areas which we haven't ventured into (yet!) - but for example, much has been talked about understeer into corners, but not a lot said about corner exit understeer. Again, for me, the S3 is poor in this respect, because you can't put the power down where you should be able to have that advanatge, over say a front wheel drive car. You just have to patient, and wait longer (compared to other similar cars). Which shouldn't be the case with the extra traction afforded by Haldex. Again, mainly due to the setup of the car. And the standard tyres.

The other elephant in the room with regard to understeer, is the trademark 'terminal' understeer that both the S3 and RS3 seem to suffer from. There is little or no mid corner adjustibility on these cars, compared to say an A45 where you can balance and change the attitude of the car with subtle inputs of throttle and steering. With the S3 and RS3, there is so much lag/delay that it doesn't make it pleasurable to have it move under you (because you're trying to respond to symptoms of something that happened in the past), whereas it's a sheer joy in the A45, you can just play tunes with balancing this car.

Ultimately, this is more a matter of who bought the right car for them and who didn't as a Fiesta ST might have less understeer but would it get you from Aberdeen to Ballater quicker than an S3? No chance!

You've said this before a few times now, I'm not so sure it will be that clear cut

The little ST, being more nimble, and able to carry more speed through the corners, may yet have that advantage.
For example, over the 28km Nurburgring, the lower powered Seat Leon is able to do a 7'58" against the Golf 7R's 8'14" despite being down on power!
So I would say the jury is out on that one

Tony1982 · Dec 8, 2015

Is this not over yet?!!

veeeight · Dec 8, 2015

It's just one of many threads that all say the same thing

edit: It's got to be better than talking about logo'd puddle lamps, squared off steering wheels, and christmas avatars, surely?

pburv · Dec 8, 2015

veeeight said:
It's just one of many threads that all say the same thing

edit: It's got to be better than talking about logo'd puddle lamps, squared off steering wheels, and christmas avatars, surely?

I quite like the christmas avatars... :hubbahubba:

Flatoot · Dec 8, 2015

V8? Why do you still own the S3? Seriously. I do wonder. According to you, a Ford Transit sounds like a better option. You are SO bias against the S3, it's almost like your ex ran off with one!
Someone says black, you say white. And have you actually driven, to the level of understanding every nook and cranny, ALL the S3's competitors, or are you (as I suspect) just trudging through internet forums and reading reviews on them. You make yourself out to be some guru of car testing.
Take your Golf R and come meet me on the track and we'll see who gets the chequered flag first eh!

Martinbanshee · Dec 8, 2015

veeeight said:
Sure we've discussed this many time before Martin, but this isn't what the crux of the issue is, I'm sure most drivers seeking fun would be happy and delighted to have a car move around underneath them, but in this instance, the crux is - does the S3 reach the limits of grip sooner than other similar cars.

There are other additional areas which we haven't ventured into (yet!) - but for example, much has been talked about understeer into corners, but not a lot said about corner exit understeer. Again, for me, the S3 is poor in this respect, because you can't put the power down where you should be able to have that advanatge, over say a front wheel drive car. You just have to patient, and wait longer (compared to other similar cars). Which shouldn't be the case with the extra traction afforded by Haldex. Again, mainly due to the setup of the car. And the standard tyres.

The other elephant in the room with regard to understeer, is the trademark 'terminal' understeer that both the S3 and RS3 seem to suffer from. There is little or no mid corner adjustibility on these cars, compared to say an A45 where you can balance and change the attitude of the car with subtle inputs of throttle and steering. With the S3 and RS3, there is so much lag/delay that it doesn't make it pleasurable to have it move under you (because you're trying to respond to symptoms of something that happened in the past), whereas it's a sheer joy in the A45, you can just play tunes with balancing this car.

You've said this before a few times now, I'm not so sure it will be that clear cut
The little ST, being more nimble, and able to carry more speed through the corners, may yet have that advantage.
For example, over the 28km Nurburgring, the lower powered Seat Leon is able to do a 7'58" against the Golf 7R's 8'14" despite being down on power!
So I would say the jury is out on that one

It's cool, I'm not picking sides here V8, I actually agree with some of what you say, I'm throwing my thoughts into the mix, my point being that it's difficult nail down what is good (safe) or bad understeer as it really depends on the individual.
The S3/RS3 definitely have safe understeer built in (as do most Audis) which make them less rewarding for some people but it means my missus is happier nailing it round the McDonald's roundabout

veeeight · Dec 8, 2015

Flatoot said:
You are SO bias against the S3,

No bias, just neutral, honest and stating facts.
It's a good car, just not a great car to drive dynamically. Nice interior and quick in a straight line.

According to you, a Ford Transit sounds like a better option.

Now you're just bring extra silly.

Take your Golf R and come meet me on the track and we'll see who gets the chequered flag first eh!

Again, too much testosterone.

Daveotto · Dec 8, 2015

OMG ... I left this thread this time yesterday.....come back today and it's three pages longer..but no one is any the wiser....and as I skim read is more than a couple of '"it's been said many times before" comments.......Groundhog day......agree to disagree and move on

veeeight · Dec 8, 2015

I can do you a quick summary, if you like

(Which I think most people can agree on)

1. The S3 does understeer
2. All mass produced cars have understeer inherently designed into them (with qualifiers)
3. Some cars get to the limit of grip sooner than others
4. You fit new tyres to the rears.
5. You can improve/change a cars handling characteristics with aftermarket parts.

Pulp84 · Dec 8, 2015

Wow....

Go on holiday for a couple of weeks come back to this gem of a thread.

Some personal observations:-

1) The S3 understeers. It's no better or worse than many cars but it is there.

2) My new Golf GTE company car has better steering weighting and consistency than the S3. It pogos just like the S3 too however. The GTE is a hybrid....not sure what Audi's excuse for getting the damping wrong on the S3 is.

3) After having an up / down relationship with my S3 and now owning a Golf I am reminded that actually it's a great car and I'm glad I got it over the Golf R. Mainly for the cabin and the various other design features I just prefer on the Audi. It's an 8/10ths car all day long but it's enough for me at the moment

a3_phil · Dec 8, 2015

I'm just gonna leave this here:

Buyer's Stockholm Syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization

Flatoot · Dec 8, 2015

Pulp84 said:
It's an 8/10ths car all day long but it's enough for me at the moment

Most modern day 'luxury' cars are. They are heavier than cars of yesteryear, due to more stringent safety regulations and emission laws.

I'd say, other than the R8, pretty much every car in the Audi range is an 8/10th car. To eak out the remaining 2/10ths would compromise what their marketing dept have spent years trying to achieve. It's a brand that says refined, quality, low depreciation, with quattro system and prestige. It's not a sports brand. They may have had a successful era with rallying, but nothing like a pure sports brand say for instance, Porsche.

Sure, they could strip down their cars, make them lighter, make them stiffer, lower..... but this would lose them about 50% of their sales. Look at your average joe soap who drives out of an Audi garage - look at the demographic.

Regardless, the question was not one of the comparison to it's competitors. If this was the only car on the road, the question would still remain. Does it actually understeer when driven to about 80% of it's capability? And the answer, from my perspective at least, is no.

That's it.

Others may say it does, and that is in all likelihood, due to the additional 20% they are putting into it. As you said, it's not a car that really wants to be pushed to the limits. It hasn't got the tools in it's locker - it's not been setup to be an out and out sports car. Nothing other than the R8 has.

But as a rule of thumb, it doesn't have 'understeers' as one of it's USP's. I have proven that much by driving it and it doesn't matter if V8 and whoever else, throw 1000 more posts at me telling me that it does.... I know from real life, owning and driving one, that driven at 8/10th's, maybe even 9/10th's, it is sure footed. I have the benefit of new tyres though and it may be that when the Conti's lose their initial grip, the slight handling deficiencies that others see, are accentuated. Just possibly. I'm now on Pirelli SottoZerro's for winter and there is even more grip (albeit a bit more rolling about).

Simon L · Dec 8, 2015

Flatoot said:
Most modern day 'luxury' cars are. They are heavier than cars of yesteryear, due to more stringent safety regulations and emission laws.

I'd say, other than the R8, pretty much every car in the Audi range is an 8/10th car. To eak out the remaining 2/10ths would compromise what their marketing dept have spent years trying to achieve. It's a brand that says refined, quality, low depreciation, with quattro system and prestige. It's not a sports brand. They may have had a successful era with rallying, but nothing like a pure sports brand say for instance, Porsche.

Sure, they could strip down their cars, make them lighter, make them stiffer, lower..... but this would lose them about 50% of their sales. Look at your average joe soap who drives out of an Audi garage - look at the demographic.

Regardless, the question was not one of the comparison to it's competitors. If this was the only car on the road, the question would still remain. Does it actually understeer when driven to about 80% of it's capability? And the answer, from my perspective at least, is no.

That's it.

Others may say it does, and that is in all likelihood, due to the additional 20% they are putting into it. As you said, it's not a car that really wants to be pushed to the limits. It hasn't got the tools in it's locker - it's not been setup to be an out and out sports car. Nothing other than the R8 has.

But as a rule of thumb, it doesn't have 'understeers' as one of it's USP's. I have proven that much by driving it and it doesn't matter if V8 and whoever else, throw 1000 more posts at me telling me that it does.... I know from real life, owning and driving one, that driven at 8/10th's, maybe even 9/10th's, it is sure footed. I have the benefit of new tyres though and it may be that when the Conti's lose their initial grip, the slight handling deficiencies that others see, are accentuated. Just possibly. I'm now on Pirelli SottoZerro's for winter and there is even more grip (albeit a bit more rolling about).

Excellent post mate, completely agree with you.

veeeight · Dec 8, 2015

Flatoot said:
Most modern day 'luxury' cars are. They are heavier than cars of yesteryear, due to more stringent safety regulations and emission laws.

And there was me thinking that the S3 was in the hot/hyper hatch sector. I really wouldn't call a S3 a luxury car.
Again. You miss the salient point. There are better set up cars in this sector than the S3.

Regardless, the question was not one of the comparison to it's competitors. If this was the only car on the road, the question would still remain. Does it actually understeer when driven to about 80% of it's capability?

And that wasn't the original premise of this, and you know it.
From Day 1 - "It's a relative comparison, not absolute comparison."
You are changing your position.

As you said, it's not a car that really wants to be pushed to the limits. It hasn't got the tools in it's locker - it's not been setup to be an out and out sports car.

No one has said that, and that isn't what this thread has been about.
To repeat - it's always been about a relative comparison of cars in this sector, and how soon the S3 gets to that limit before the others do.

But as a rule of thumb, it doesn't have 'understeers' as one of it's USP's.

You must be new to the Audi marque

But again, no one has said that that is one of its USP's. You're putting words into peoples mouths.

CraigI · Dec 8, 2015

With mag ride the S3 is a reasonable drive, inspires more confidence, corners better, flatter, faster. I'll likely keep my saloon for a couple of years.
Without mag ride I didn't gel at all.

The 80/20 split is a good summary, up to 80% the S3 (mag ride equipped) is reasonably competent; above 80% it unravels quickly.

This isn't my biggest issue though, it's the lack of involvement, steering feel and excitement factor that is the S3's biggest downfall, and that's why this will be my last Audi.

Flatoot · Dec 8, 2015

veeeight said:
And there was me thinking that the S3 was in the hot/hyper hatch sector.
Again. You miss the salient point. There are better set up cars in this sector than the S3.

The S3 is neither a hyper nor a hot hatch. I don't think it's marketed as such either. Hot hatch to me, smacks of 18 year olds, running around with tyres that are far too wide for their rims, slammed to the floor and drainpipe exhausts. Do you think the salesman at Audi say, do you want to look at this hot hatch sir? It's an S-Line that's been on the Vodka Red Bull's!

veeeight said:
And that wasn't the original premise of this, and you know it.

The original premise of my post was to debunk your claims that it understeers, or at least, to get you to admit it handles just fine unless you drive it beyond where it should be. This based on my driving around waiting for this dreaded understeer to bite me on the ***.... hasn't happened, as I've said, through a variation of different conditions, roads and driving styles.

veeeight said:
No one has said that, and that isn't what this thread has been about.
To repeat - it's all about a relative comparison of cars in this sector, and how much the S3 gets to that limit before the others do.

This is NOT about how it compares. It's my frickin thread mate. I started off by asking who was it that said it understeered. You brought the comparisons in to your beloved Golf R. Oh, still waiting for you to agree to that track race. I'll put a grand on me beating you by the way

veeeight said:
You must be new to the Audi marque But again, no one has said that that is one of its USP's. You're putting words into peoples mouths.

Actually, no, I've owned 5 A4's, 2 A6's and now I'm on to the S3. This in addition to the 30 other cars I've owned and about 10 different road bikes. So, spare me the lecture.

veeeight · Dec 8, 2015

Flatoot said:
The S3 is neither a hyper nor a hot hatch. I don't think it's marketed as such either.

Dear me. It is categorised in the "hot hatch" category (despite what you think) - a few call the 300PS+ cars "hyper hatches", and a small number categorise them as "premium hatches". Never Luxury Car.

The original premise of my post was to debunk your claims that it understeers,

Yes, it does. See all the references and replies to this effect.
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-understeering-in-wet.223943/
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-sb-undertyred-motor-mag-review.231092/
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-a3-ride-handling-honest-opinions.240977/
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-traction-abs-and-sliding.237290/
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/coilovers-for-the-8v.241997/
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-tyres.246232/
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-now-on-h-r-lowering-springs.219988/

By now, you should realise that understeer is a very real thing, and not a figment of anyone's imagination (your opening words).

Actually, no, I've owned 5 A4's, 2 A6's and now I'm on to the S3. This in addition to the 30 other cars I've owned and about 10 different road bikes. So, spare me the lecture.

And you're still in denial that Audi's (in general) understeer. Well well.

MikeParkin · Dec 8, 2015

I agree with both I think that makes things easier. :haudrauf:

veeeight · Dec 8, 2015

CraigI said:
above 80% it unravels quickly.

^ This. Never a truer word.

This isn't my biggest issue though, it's the lack of involvement, steering feel and excitement factor that is the S3's biggest downfall, and that's why this will be my last Audi.

I can empathise.

veeeight · Dec 8, 2015

Sooooooo.

The new Focus RS then ...................

(might as well get it out of the way, the F word is bound to come up sooner or later

)

Flatoot · Dec 8, 2015

veeeight said:
Dear me. It is categorised in the "hot hatch" category (despite what you think) - a few call the 300PS+ cars "hyper hatches", and a small number categorise them as "premium hatches". Never Luxury.

The term 'hot hatch' was an 80's and 90's thing mate. Some have tried to recreate that look and feel. But as I said, it'll never be recreated due to different engineering methods, regulations etc. You crash a prpoer hot hatch (an XR2, XR3, Pug, GT Turbo, AX etc), there was no coming back from it. That's why they were so exciting to drive. You felt every bump, every rev, through the seat of your pants.
Today's drive is sterelised. All the cars you talk of, are tanks in comparison. Your Golf R.... just a Golf at the end of the day. A big, heavy, boxy lump of a car.

veeeight said:
Yes, it does. See all the references and replies to this effect.

It doesn't. It does if you push it past where it wants, But then, the Star Ship Enterprise performed best in the lower to medium thresholds. Warp Speed gave Scotty too many problems. Same applies to the S3... it's rip round the B roads quite happily, sail round bends, without the need to redline it. If you want to take it to the limit, it's gonna say no. It's not that sort of car bud. Sorry to disappoint.

veeeight said:
And you're still in denial that Audi's (in general) understeer. Well well.

EVERY CAR UNDERSTEERS! It's not that difficult to absorb is it? Every single car, when pushed too fast into a corner will understeer. I truly don't know the limits to which you drive, nor do I particularly care. I know how I have driven my car to date - one particular whirl from Aberdeen, over the back roads to the Lecht then up to Dingwall.... I gave it the beans (or at least, 75-80% on the twisty bits that I like - took me back to a drive, probably about 25 years ago, in my old Pug 1.9 GTi.... probably the best driving experience I've ever experienced. The thing was a sheer delight to drive fast on that road). Anyway, bottom line is, the S3 hit every apex, held every line and powered out of the corners with that cheeky wee rasp that makes me smile.

I enjoy driving the S3... I get enjoyment out of anything I drive, as I can take it to the limit of where it needs it be without binning it. That's part of the allure though - knowing that a certain car has it's limits, then finding them and coaxing them in a dance with grip and disaster. I don't really need to in the S3 though. It's plenty fast enough to get that grin factor, without really getting out of breath.

Essflee · Dec 8, 2015

I bet your wifes / girlfriends never ever win an argument...

Flatoot · Dec 8, 2015

Essflee said:
I bet your wifes / girlfriends never ever win an argument...

Mine doesn't. V8 is a computer program, designed to criticise every post about S3. Nanu, nanu, shazbot!!

veeeight · Dec 8, 2015

Flatoot said:
The term 'hot hatch' was an 80's and 90's thing mate.

In 2015:

TG June 2015

TG Oct 2015

evo Feb 2015

WC 2015

HJ 2015

CAR Jan 2015

Pulp84 · Dec 8, 2015

@Flatoot

To

Obama knows where it's at. You should have a go in one....it's pretty good!

veeeight · Dec 8, 2015

Flatoot said:
Your Golf R.... just a Golf at the end of the day. A big, heavy, boxy lump of a car.

Lighter and more agile than a S3 though

EVERY CAR UNDERSTEERS!

Hallelujah

I enjoy driving the S3... I get enjoyment out of anything I drive, as I can take it to the limit of where it needs it be without binning it.

And that's great. I'm happy that you're happy with it! Sincerely!

Flatoot · Dec 8, 2015

Oh yes, cause a few car magazines use the term, it's ok. Think it was Peugeot that tried to re-surface the hot hatch buzzword. You may call them that.... they don't make cars like they used to when I were a lad.

Flatoot · Dec 8, 2015

Pulp84 said:
@Flatoot

To

Obama knows where it's at. You should have a go in one....it's pretty good!

Boy at the VW wouldn't give me enough for my trade in and thought that just because he had a pre-registered one on his forecourt, I should be grateful. He lost the deal - never even bothered taking the demo out. Such contempt is why I would rather deal with Audi in Aberdeen.

Flatoot · Dec 8, 2015

veeeight said:
Lighter and more agile than a S3 though

More 'laddish' and lower residual. To be honest, that 5% better handling, I can live without thanks. When I come to trade in the S3, I think the cash in my bank account will speak volumes.

Blackwhite · Dec 8, 2015

Oh noooooo! The F word AND G word
on the same page!

veeeight · Dec 8, 2015

Flatoot said:
Oh yes, cause a few car magazines use the term, it's ok.

No, all the publications, reviewers, trade use the term, I think you'll find that it's you that's out of kilter with reality!
It's a category that may have been coined in the 80's but is still valid and in use.

Flatoot · Dec 8, 2015

veeeight said:
No, all the publications, reviewers, trade use the term, I think you'll find that it's you that's out of kilter with reality!

How old are you just out of interest?

msdmjb · Dec 8, 2015

Flatoot said:
V8? Why do you still own the S3? Seriously. I do wonder. According to you, a Ford Transit sounds like a better option. You are SO bias against the S3, it's almost like your ex ran off with one!
Someone says black, you say white. And have you actually driven, to the level of understanding every nook and cranny, ALL the S3's competitors, or are you (as I suspect) just trudging through internet forums and reading reviews on them. You make yourself out to be some guru of car testing.
Take your Golf R and come meet me on the track and we'll see who gets the chequered flag first eh!

I think he like some others can assess/critic his car for being a car and not be attached to it emotionally. It is just metal and plastic and I suspect he and I have fundamentally the same views e.g. mine is 18months old and the only wash it has had is at the 1st service as opposed to some cherished pampered pride and joy (I will throw the bait out there for perhaps a different thread..............)

Every car will understeer if someone less able is driving it (or a good driver provoking it) but a really decent car will allow you to work with it to adjust/remove the understeer, given the marketing behind the S3 some would expect the S3 to be a little more towards the adjustability end of things rather than the very rapid very safe handling car that it is. I don't think the RS3 is that much better in that regard but heh Audi want to sell cars and most people like to feel fast and safe (with lots of grip) rather than fast and edgy. Somebody on here has already nailed it, the S3 is a 8/10 road car, where it starts to show its engineering design is the final 2/10 which is inherent across many fast Audis.

Nobody will disagree that on the road there are few cars of a comparable price for getting from A-B safely in all conditions, it is just a bit clinical/easy rather than fun if you go looking for fun.

Anyway, lets keep it good humoured as it is more interesting than some other boring threads that have been on here.............

Flatoot · Dec 8, 2015

msdmjb said:
Nobody will disagree that on the road there are few cars of a comparable price for getting from A-B safely in all conditions, it is just a bit clinical/easy rather than fun if you go looking for fun.

I doubt many will disagree with that if they're being really honest.

But it doesn't understeer round roundabouts at 30mph mate. Come on! It just doesn't. It can drive quite happily, all day long, and chew the road up, without getting out of shape - that's the 'safe, sanitised' design you refer to. If you take it to Warp Factor F**k Off, then yeah, I'm sure it does protest. Wooly handling - yep. All that is not up for dispute. Understeers with ease? Nope. That's all I have to say on the issue.

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