Starting Problems

Chris AJC

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Hi all,

Trying to work out why my 2000 Audi A3 8L 1.8l wont start. The only Vag fault code to be seen is the P1602 low voltage to ECU which as far as I can tell shouldn't affect the car starting. There is spark and air, i can hear the fuel pump buzzing when I turn the ignition. The starter spins but the cambelt does not turn however when i try and start the car in gear it jumps. I'm at a loss, Please help me out.

Thanks alot.
 
Thought i'd mention i've also tried to bump start it in the hope that it was just the starter motor to no avail, however this could be because it hasn't started in two odd weeks.
 
Could be stater motor no engaging, remove the starter, spray the shaft with brake cleaner, then liberally oil the shaft with wd40, then make sure the sprocket runs along the shaft freely, then refit and give it a try.
 
Hi mate, just to clarify things: When you're cranking over the starter, is the bottom (crankshaft) pulley turning?
If you're on your own: on level ground stick it in 2nd or 3rd gear with the handbrake off. Pop the bonnet and standing at the front rock the car back and forth as far as you can. This should let you see what's turning or not...
 
Hi,

Took the starter out, lubed it up it spins freely one way and the one way clutch makes it harder to spin the other way but not impossible. The engine rocks when I try and start it which implies that the starter is indeed engaging, the car has spark and fuel and i can only assume air. Any suggestions?
 
Did you try my suggestion above? Only ask because of your initial comment that the cambelt isn't moving...
Can you confirm whether the pulleys are turning when you crank it over?
 
When I crank the cambelt does not move, however it does turn as I can move it by hand with a socket on the cog. The pulleys are not turning when I crank it over.
 
OK, try the bit about engine off, sticking it in 3rd gear, handbrake off and pushing it forwards/backwards. Do the pulleys turn then?
There will probably be a bit of slack before you feel resistance, and all your looking for is that the pulleys TRY to turn when you feel that resistance...
 
Yeah the pullyes turn, they did when I tried to push start it aswell.​
 
Cool, just ruling out major mechanical failure (unlikely but always possible). Any idea what the state of the battery is? So can you hear the starter keeping spinning as long as you're cranking it, or does it just stop/click?
 
Yeah the battery is fine, tried iton another battery which i know is spot on to no avail. The starter keeps spinning as long as and slightly after i stop cranking.
 
So the pulleys all turn OK (checked crank AND cam are turning?) when trying to bump it, but not when you crank it on the starter, yet the car lurches when you try to start it in gear?
 
Trying to start it in gear, the car lurches and does it stop the starter from spinning freely?
 
Yeah the starter's engaging the flywheel so cant spin.
 
I keep going back to first principles trying to envision a scenario that fits all this.....
If the car tries to move forward when cranking in gear (and it stalls out the starter motor), it suggests the starter is spinning and engaging OK.
If the starter is engaging (and still spinning) but the camshaft pulley isn't turning, the obvious cause would be timing belt/gear failure. But if the camshaft and crankshaft pulleys are turning normally when you try to bump start it, it kind of rules that one out...
 
Yeah this is what I can't get my head round, the belt is intact, they move when the cars in gear. It just makes no sense.
 
Not sure how the starters are set up internally, but at the moment all I can picture is when you try to start it in gear, there is so much load on the starter it stalls out whilst in the engaged position, but when you try to start it OUT of gear, there is less load so the pinion flies out then bounces back without engaging and just sits there spinning against nothing. The starters on these ARE notorious for getting sticky (make a brief graunching noise when you release the key after the engine fires), mine does it occasionally depending on temperature. Not sure what effects a dodgy starter supply/earth would have, but worth checking. Either way, if it's a starter motor issue it OUGHT to start from a bump.....
 
That was the conclusion I came to, I feel like its possible that it didnt bump start because it had been sat for a couple of weeks, i had the starter apart earlier and it appeared okay but i'm unsure whether a new one would solve it.
 
I agree it's plausable, no VCDS code cane up however so i dont really know where to start with that..
 
Mmmm, bit of a tough one, I think a try with another starter might be your only option to rule that out, the armature may have come away from the shaft, allowing the motor to spin without turning the shaft, although I have never heard of this before, but the car should still bump start, beware that bump starting can damage the cat, as unburnt fuel can get to it, stripping it of its precious metals.
 
Can't see it being Immo related tbh. You would get the warning light on the dash, relevant codes in VCDS, and wouldn't cause the starter to spin without turning the engine. If you're sure the battery is good, I'd check main earthing leads/points, then suspect starter failure. Take a look at http://uk-mkivs.net/topic/65329-sootpigs-v5-sold/page-12 about half way down the page. Starter motor causing similar probs which the OP fixed by stripping/cleaning (with pictures). If you can hold the starter safely (vice), you can bench test them to see how they're working, but you need to be VERY careful, 'cos they WILL try to bite you.....
 
So bench tested the starter and the starter is good, I'm sure its something to do with the timing belt not turning when I crank the engine, Why would that not turn?
 
Possibles if the starter itself is OK (though none exactly fit the circumstances as you've laid them out):

Missing teeth on the flywheel. Starter would spin without driving the crankshaft, can sometimes be diagnosed by moving the engine round a bit (bumping etc), and seeing if the starter will then engage, or by visual inspection of the flywheel edge with starter removed. (Doesn't fit if the car jumps and stalls out the starter when in gear).

Broken/stripped timing belt or timing gear. Starter would turn the crankshaft and serpentine belt (alternator etc), but camshaft pulley stays still. Starter often seems to spin quicker than normal due to no compression (Doesn't fit if all pulleys inc camshaft turn when bumping it).

Broken crankshaft key/keyway or crankshaft itself. Same as above, but crankshaft pulley and serpentine belt don't move either. Doesn't fit if crankshaft pulley turns when bumping (Had this myself on a Ur Quattro donkeys years ago, turned out to be the crankshaft key that was sheared).

Broken flywheel bolts. Starter engages and turns flywheel, but none of the pulleys move. (Doesn't fit as pulleys turn when bumping)

Broken Dual mass flywheel. Same as above (but I don't know if there's any way it could fail that would cause it to catch when in gear, thus turning the pulleys on a bump - Anyone with some DMF experience want to chime in on this?)

Starter motor supply or earth fault could cause the starter to behave oddly/fail to engage. (Doesn't really fit if starting in gear makes the car jump and stalls the starter, but electrical faults can cause some bizzare behaviour.

The last one still seems to be vaguely possible to me. Especially if the starter was fine on a bench test (different wiring being used).
How hard does the car try to move forward if trying to start in gear? (With the handbrake off and slipping the clutch a little most cars will actually move a fair way doing this, BUT it's a good way to burn out your starter/wiring or strip flywheel teeth :( )
If the car doesn't really try to shift before the starter stalls out, it normally indicates a low battery or dodgy supply/earth wiring.

Personally I'd recheck the supply and earth cables, check the battery condition (inc voltage drop when cranking), then probably try another starter motor. Hard to diagnose much further without more info or seeing the thing.....
 
Thanks alot for taking the time to help me out with this firstly,

When I get back from work i'll go and check exactly which pulleys are moving as the scenario as it is I agree seems impossible so I must be missing something, I know for a fact that the starter engages the flywheel which is not stripped, i've checked. I'm also sure that the battery is good, i've tried it with several and also jumped it so thats not the problem.

I'm not 100% sure that the cambelt isn't stripped at some point i'll check that, and i'll also check that the crankshaft pulley is moving as that seems like the most likely cause to me at the moment.

Cheers
 
No worries mate. Let us know what you find.
Got my fingers crossed for you that it's not timing related 'cos the likelihood is fairly serious valvetrain damage if it is... :(
 
Another thought is that if the timing belt IS turning, it's always possible that the cam pullies have failed. VERY unlikely (never heard of it except when running mega aggressive race cams), but getting pretty desperate for ideas here!
 
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A knowledgable friend of mine has decided that it must be the DMF, he normally knows what he's talking about but does anyone on here have any help as to how to confirm diagnosis without removing engine/gearbox and/or the repair procedure, Interested in converting to solid flywheel but depending on cost may be cheaper to get a new engine with lower miles.
 
Honestly don't know enough about the Dual Mass setup on these engines to add much, but I have a feeling that the starter ring gear may be attached to the primary mass, in which case surely DMF failure still wouldn't explain the symptoms (failure to turn the engine over on the starter). Anyone who's had their DMF out want to confirm/deny this? If you've tested the voltage drop over the battery when cranking, and checked the wiring, I'd still be tempted to take a punt on a used starter (£20 odd quid on fleabay) before condemning the DMF/engine...
 

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