Too Smokey for a mapped BKD cold start?

bentwenty

bentwenty

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This was my A3 this morning. It has an EGR delete (but the cooler is still in place), a remap from Darkside and a 2.5" custom cat back.

It has only recently started smoking like this, and only when bone cold on a cold day. after 10 minutes of idling, it will be completely clear, then only belch out black smoke on power.
It is using a small amount of coolant, but I'm not alarmed by it. I checked it 3 weeks ago and it was about half way between the marks, this evening it was pretty much on the minimum mark.
IMG 5051

There are no signs of emulsification on the oil filler cap.

I have a few theories of my own, I would be grateful for anyone else's input!

My best case is its just condensation, but I think it is a bit to much smoke for that.

I also suspect it could be the EGR cooler, I have ordered the EGR cooler delete connector from Darkside, so I'll see if that solves it.

I am also aware of the fact that it could be a cracked or porous head, it was delivered in July 03, so it probably has one of the earliest heads on it. I hope its not that!

many thanks for your input! (Y)
 
I believe if you do an EGR delete then you will get black smoke anyway? I could be wrong
 
Bramley said:
I believe if you do an EGR delete then you will get black smoke anyway? I could be wrong
Click to expand...

I'm not too worried about black smoke, it was actually worse for black smoke when it had just the exhaust. The EGR delete/remap seemed made the black smoke a lot better. I'm more worried about the white/grey smoke on cold starts.
 
audi upgrades
i'm no mechanic but if that is your coolant bottle something deffo isn't right

i can't remember for sure but don't you get that sludge stuff when the oil and coolant are mixing somewhere?
 
Egr delete or disable will always be less black smoke as the engine is no longer re breathing it's own soot.
 
Sayam said:
i'm no mechanic but if that is your coolant bottle something deffo isn't right

i can't remember for sure but don't you get that sludge stuff when the oil and coolant are mixing somewhere?
Click to expand...
I think you may just be seeing deposits from the old colorant, there is no oil in the coolant or vice versa. This would cause creamy deposits if it were happening.
 
bentwenty said:
I think you may just be seeing deposits from the old colorant, there is no oil in the coolant or vice versa. This would cause creamy deposits if it were happening.
Click to expand...

fair enough mate, as i say i'm not a mechanic but my coolant bottle doesn't look like that
 
I don't want to be alarmist, but, when the head went on my one, there was never any indication of any contamination in the coolant bottle. It started using coolant at the rate you describe and ended up going through 5 litres a week. The inevitable happened and the head went south after about 3 months, taking a reconed turbo with it.
The only good thing is the new heads are less than £300.00 from Audi, grafting all your internals into the new one is the expensive part.
Incidentally, I used to get a very minor puff of grey smoke on start up.
 
just a thought too - could it be something in the map? i know generic maps aren't the best and it's a different engine but a good friend has a 1.9 tdi mk5 golf mapped to around 130bhp from 105, that smokes on startup
 
Sayam said:
just a thought too - could it be something in the map? i know generic maps aren't the best and it's a different engine but a good friend has a 1.9 tdi mk5 golf mapped to around 130bhp from 105, that smokes on startup
Click to expand...

I'd be very surprised if it was the map. It was mapped by Darkside Developments, widely regarded as one of the best VAG diesel tuning companies.
It is not a generic map, it's a fully custom map done on a rolling road, and then tested with data logging on the road by them.
I won't rule it out as a possibility though, and thanks for the input!

I think I may drop them an email and see what they say, they seem to be very good with helping out with any issues.
 
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Jakey 61 said:
I don't want to be alarmist, but, when the head went on my one, there was never any indication of any contamination in the coolant bottle. It started using coolant at the rate you describe and ended up going through 5 litres a week. The inevitable happened and the head went south after about 3 months, taking a reconed turbo with it.
The only good thing is the new heads are less than £300.00 from Audi, grafting all your internals into the new one is the expensive part.
Incidentally, I used to get a very minor puff of grey smoke on start up.
Click to expand...

That's not what I wanted to hear :(
What would my next steps be? I am thinking of ringing Audi and asking about any recalls on my head. I'm gonna try and find out which revision of the head I have. As it was registered in July 03, it's probably the A revision, which I think has the porous issues.
Other then that, should I just keep an eye on the coolant usage?
Presumably fitting the valves and guides would be the most expensive part? Would it be safe to assume it would be a£1k job all in if it went?
Cheers
 
bentwenty said:
That's not what I wanted to hear :(
What would my next steps be? I am thinking of ringing Audi and asking about any recalls on my head. I'm gonna try and find out which revision of the head I have. As it was registered in July 03, it's probably the A revision, which I think has the porous issues.
Other then that, should I just keep an eye on the coolant usage?
Presumably fitting the valves and guides would be the most expensive part? Would it be safe to assume it would be a£1k job all in if it went?
Cheers
Click to expand...
As far as I know, there was no recall on BKD heads due to the cracking /porous issues. I checked on here before I was a member and couldn't find anything. All you can do is, as you say, keep an eye on coolant use. I knew it was coming and was as prepared for the inevitable as I could be. Sounds like the car is the right age with the A version head casting, so I would get ready for it. All in, with a new turbo, it was a £1600 day out.
I did lift the phone and vent my spleen at Audi, not that it did any good but, I felt a lot better afterwards.
Sorry to cheer you up, but it isn't sounding good.
:apologetic:
 
Jakey 61 said:
As far as I know, there was no recall on BKD heads due to the cracking /porous issues. I checked on here before I was a member and couldn't find anything. All you can do is, as you say, keep an eye on coolant use. I knew it was coming and was as prepared for the inevitable as I could be. Sounds like the car is the right age with the A version head casting, so I would get ready for it. All in, with a new turbo, it was a £1600 day out.
I did lift the phone and vent my spleen at Audi, not that it did any good but, I felt a lot better afterwards.
Sorry to cheer you up, but it isn't sounding good.
:apologetic:
Click to expand...
Thanks for spelling it out plainly!
I will be checking the P/N on my head later tonight to see which revision it has.
I quickly checked my coolant earlier and say it has used a noticeable amount since last night :( I will fill it up and mark the level and the date with a sharpie so I have some objective data.
I will also do the EGR cooler delete as I have ordered the part. That would be best case!
It has been fine all day today even when cold (the weather has been a lot warmer), if it was a head problem, would it be constant or temperature related?
Cheers :)
 
Hey mate, please do update if EGR cooler delete solves your coolant and smoke issues as I am having the same issues here! Same engine but not mapped.
 
darkside are renown for smoky maps , they think every one wants loads of power ,they dont do nice clean maps . a good tuned file wont smoke much at all maybe just a quick burst on acceleration . but mine was mapped by myself 5 different map attempts till i was happy with power,economy ,etc dpf deleted but very little smoke at all
 
bentwenty said:
Thanks for spelling it out plainly!
I will be checking the P/N on my head later tonight to see which revision it has.
I quickly checked my coolant earlier and say it has used a noticeable amount since last night :( I will fill it up and mark the level and the date with a sharpie so I have some objective data.
I will also do the EGR cooler delete as I have ordered the part. That would be best case!
It has been fine all day today even when cold (the weather has been a lot warmer), if it was a head problem, would it be constant or temperature related?
Cheers :)
Click to expand...
If your head is on the way out the coolant loss will be constant and getting steadily worse.
;)
 
bentwenty said:
I'd be very surprised if it was the map. It was mapped by Darkside Developments, widely regarded as one of the best VAG diesel tuning companies.
It is not a generic map, it's a fully custom map done on a rolling road, and then tested with data logging on the road by them.
I won't rule it out as a possibility though, and thanks for the input!
Click to expand...
If it's such a good map why does it belch out black smoke ??. overfuelling such that you get loads of black smoke is pointless in a diesel just a waste of fuel and totally unnecessary. Assuming the glow Glowplugs are running OK which helps the reduction of smoke at start up , I would say your issue is likely to be a head gasket or porous cylinder head casting.
Try the EGR cooler delete but I don't think that will be the issue. The heads when they go porous can develop cracks into the exhaust ports which results in water ending up in the exhaust manifold. when the engine starts this is boiled off. As the engine heats and things expand the cracks can close reducing the loss but it will get worse.

Karl.
 
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hollow said:
darkside are renown for smoky maps , they think every one wants loads of power ,they dont do nice clean maps . a good tuned file wont smoke much at all maybe just a quick burst on acceleration . but mine was mapped by myself 5 different map attempts till i was happy with power,economy ,etc dpf deleted but very little smoke at all
Click to expand...
I won't speak to the overall reputation of Darkside as I don't feel that's my place. However, in the interest of preserving all the facts, I feel I should point out a few things; MY car has been considerably less smokey since the map with Darkside, they even told me before they started on it that this would be the case.
The emphasis of the mapping session was not on max power, but on reliable power. It has been known for the BKD to make 190+ on a map with 2.0+ bar of boost. I made 180 with only 1.6 bar.
The session I received was far from a quick session, many factors were taken into consideration.
I would describe the map as very clean actually, I have seen better fuel economy, more power, and less smoke.
 
I had cracks with STEAM and my head had huge cracks upon inspection that closed up with thermal expansion. I f*cked it all and couldn't be ***** with that sh*t getting to the point of destruction and put a NEW engine in. As would be expected everything is hunky dory now but I paid for it
 
desertstorm said:
If it's such a good map why does it belch out black smoke ??. overfuelling such that you get loads of black smoke is pointless in a diesel just a waste of fuel and totally unnecessary. Assuming the glow Glowplugs are running OK which helps the reduction of smoke at start up , I would say your issue is likely to be a head gasket or porous cylinder head casting.
Try the EGR cooler delete but I don't think that will be the issue. The heads when they go porous can develop cracks into the exhaust ports which results in water ending up in the exhaust manifold. when the engine starts this is boiled off. As the engine heats and things expand the cracks can close reducing the loss but it will get worse.

Karl.
Click to expand...
Cheers for the reply! I'm doing the EGR cooler first as it's the cheapest ;)
I have just checked the head, it is indeed the A revision
:( so that is at the front of my mind, I'm watching the coolant bottle like a hawk!

The smoke in the video was an isolated incident, I haven't had that much previously, or since then. It was a very different colour to the black smoke I had before the map.
I don't think it would be accurate to describe it as 'an overfueling map'.
I get a small wisp of black smoke under full power, that seem to be out it.

It's probably also worth noting, since everyone has been so quick to blame the map ;) lol, that the map has been on the car for about a month now, and I have only just seen this issue yesterday...
 
+1 I did the full EGR and cooler delete to take this out of the equation so it can't be an issue going forward. I have to say with EGR delete if I've been idling round town for a couple of days if I get on an A road and boot it it's like a James Bond smoke screen behind me for the first couple of times when it clears it's throat
 
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Lukeyb said:
I had cracks with STEAM and my head had huge cracks upon inspection that closed up with thermal expansion. I f*cked it all and couldn't be ***** with that sh*t getting to the point of destruction and put a NEW engine in. As would be expected everything is hunky dory now but I paid for it
Click to expand...
What did you drop on that?
I've got my eye on a second hand (C revision) head to save fitting valave and guides etc in case it does go.
 
Cooler is leaking colant into your exhaust manifold so get cooler delete done asap i had this issue on mine deleted cooler and nonmore coolant loss, also bang some K seal in it doesnt harm the engine i did it on mine just in case and mine was highly tuned
 
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K seal = .......,,.,
 

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What it cost = £££££££ should have got like a 12 plate instead but I like my cars shape and it's spec it's fully loaded down to even the wheels. So heart wins head
 
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TDI140 said:
Cooler is leaking colant into your exhaust manifold so get cooler delete done asap i had this issue on mine deleted cooler and nonmore coolant loss, also bang some K seal in it doesnt harm the engine i did it on mine just in case and mine was highly tuned
Click to expand...

Lukeyb said:
K seal = .......,,.,
Click to expand...

Woah, I've used K Seal as well, the coolant loss is much less, but this picture got me worried!
 
That was the old heater matrix that was blocked and I had no heat, this is what I found when I cut the top off
 
Egr cooler is gone as of last night, was a few hours work, but I think it should solve a few issues, I will update on coolant loss.
25dc4403be77348bc8b045a2abd2bd2d.jpg

Before I removed it, I was using about 1l a month, so it should be easy to spot.
The exhaust from the egr cooler to the egr valve has also split somehow, so blanking that off was also a good thing...
703ca3a3ae72305a052e318dc8417d8e.jpg
 
Those pipes are bad for going. I put a new one on my one at £100, should've blanked it as well.
I hope you get some decent resuts.
;)
 
Yeah mine went after I'd blanked the valve off, so it wasn't causing me any issues (other than some awesome induction noise ;) ). I just blanked off the outlet in the exhaust manifold.
 
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Do inform us about the results mate, because from previous posts, it seems like I have the same issue... White smoke, coolant loss and awesome induction noise even at idle (like air is going out of a tiny hole somewhere).

This is how my cold startup looks like (car is mapped):

 
Rideen said:
Do inform us about the results mate, because from previous posts, it seems like I have the same issue... White smoke, coolant loss and awesome induction noise even at idle (like air is going out of a tiny hole somewhere).

This is how my cold startup looks like (car is mapped):

Click to expand...

From that description it sounds exactly like mine. I could hear and smell exhaust gas in the engine bay on mine, and it was pretty obvious once I hade the turbo inlet off that this was the issue.
 
bentwenty said:
From that description it sounds exactly like mine. I could hear and smell exhaust gas in the engine bay on mine, and it was pretty obvious once I hade the turbo inlet off that this was the issue.
Click to expand...

Thanks, still gives me hope it's not a porous cylinder head! :)
 
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Rideen said:
Thanks, still gives me hope it's not a porous cylinder head! :)
Click to expand...
Yeah that's ultimate feat with this engine!
So far the coolant seems ok, I've left it just below the max, so if it is still leaking it will put the light on within a week...
 
bentwenty said:
Yeah that's ultimate feat with this engine!
So far the coolant seems ok, I've left it just below the max, so if it is still leaking it will put the light on within a week...
Click to expand...

Really helpful mate, thanks, I will take my car to a local garage in 10 days or so to inspect the EGR and turbo pipes, hopefully the problem is EGR pipe as well! :D
 
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