interesting vid rs3 loses to bmw
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as opposed to a supposed comparative review of 2 cars 
I am a convert from BMW to Audi and I do love my A4 Quattro but I have to agree with Chris and I know my A4 is no RS3 but it is infuriating when you turn in on a slightly greasy roundabout and all you get is massive amounts of under steer, regardless of what you do with the throttle, I've known FWD cars with less understeer.
Plus I don't understand why the RS3 was ever released as a 5 door hatch/sportback thing, just doesn't make sense.
Plus I don't understand why the RS3 was ever released as a 5 door hatch/sportback thing, just doesn't make sense.
You guys are taking one man's opinion too seriously, I thought it was a great review, I just ignored everything he said, I do that a lot with jeremy clarkson. That bmw mmi or what ever with torque reading looked mint, I would love that in my A3.
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I suppose there was the hark back to Audi's being Avants, but also:
Would a family man with kids buy a 3 door hatch - PROBABLY NOT
Would a young/single/no kids in tow man buy a 5 door car with an RS badge on it - PROBABLY WOULD
Do sportbacks outsell 3 doors these days - PROBABLY
One production line, lower costs, maximum profit - Audi quids in - JOB DONE!
Sportbacks definintely outsell the 3dr and I think they were right to stick with the Sportback for the RS3 if they were only making one body type the 5dr looks "more" car and more contemporary, like a mini A6 Avant.
He commended the RS3 where due; excellent engine and drivetrain, looks good, but he didn't like the understeer!!!! Every other review of the RS3 concurs with this. Why is it biased??
The M135i isn't a proper "M" car; like you say it is the equivalent of an S-Line or maybe S3. AUDI RS models = BMW M Models. The M135i is a halfway house to the top end model and normally would be call M Sport like in old BMW branding of 3-series...but they're not an M3.
Comparing a top A3 model [RS3] with the mid sport model of the 1-series [M135i] there are different levels of expectations, so when the RS3 loses out to a lower equivalent 1-series it's hard to ignore.
Don't forget the RS4 was well-loved, just accept the RS3 isn't the car is should be as a "driver's" car.
That's what he said in the reviews; it's one of the fastest point to point cars in any weather.
The main problem with the understeer in the review is yes you can pre-empt it and drive around it by entering corners slower but one of the critical things is that of adjusting the car and in the video he said it doesn't do that which would make it a very "blunt instrument" and that would only compound his frustration on track.
Artimus
Shortback
I see you conveniently carved up my post to avoid commenting on the parts you couldn't refute.
...have another bite.
Artimus
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Can someone please explain to me what th eissue with the understeer is? Is everyone expecting to go round corners drifting? I have never once seen a car on the road with its rear end swinging behind it. If I bought a car and it did that I would take it back. I have no idea what this obsession with a loose back end is?? Everyone knows a back end is better tighter
Look guy's, you listening to the opinion of someone who thought the suspension firmed up when the sports button was pressed?? Sorry, doesn't happen. This guy was looking for issues that don't exist
Look guy's, you listening to the opinion of someone who thought the suspension firmed up when the sports button was pressed?? Sorry, doesn't happen. This guy was looking for issues that don't exist
PaulAr
S3 (8P)
Spot on.
The TTRS `kind of` fills the space for singletons who want a 5cyl AUDI RS.
Anyway, what about this Baby AMG.....
I love audi's and have always had them but the rs3 is not great and especially for £40,000 for a car with sporting pretensions all it has going for it is the outside looks and the engine, and that m135 is lovely!! i know what car i will be getting next
Chris
Chris
I see you conveniently carved up my post to avoid commenting on the parts you couldn't refute.
...have another bite.
I didn't carve anything, I just cut the length to avoid lengthy quotations and also make it clearer what I was referring too!
Seem to be taking it personally, it's a car none of us are affiliated too, if it was a family member I can agree with your stance, and with that it in mind it's hard to discuss without getting touchy like you just got
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Lol, he said what he saw, on the road it's definitely quick, and in all-weather quicker than the 1-series but you will not have the same driving experience as the BMW [but at £40k+ for the top RS3 model you would not expect that]. What in that do you not understand!?
If the review was of, for example, an RS3 and a Nissan GTR and the RS3 ran the GTR close in areas then the relative expectations of the RS3 are lower so it would be looked upon more favourably. This is partly what has happened here, a sub-top spec BMW is as fast and better to drive than a rival's top model costing 33% more. Therefore you go in to this with higher expectations of the RS3 than the BMW. The fact the BMW is better in some areas than the AUDI didn't help.
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Define 'better'; better for you, for me, for say Artimus???
Better is a word that I've always though is subjective based on an individuals needs or wants when it comes to cars. I think it depends on what floats your boat, and it's clear Mr Harris is a Bimmer man. Personally I don't have any issue with that, to be frank I couldn't really care less what he thinks. My mother would say her Corsa is better than my S3 for her needs as my S3 has terrible MPG by todays standards and only has 2 doors (she thinks 2 door cars are irrelevant!).
From the facts presented I can look at the two cars and make personal choices depending on what I interpret from his reported findings, but to be honest because whatever car I choose will be a daily driver (and if I'm spending that much money I'd hope to like how it looks), there are decisions I'd make as priority over whether I can sling it's **** round a track at full tilt or drag race to 140. I respect the 1'er massively for what it can achieve out of the box for £30k, and to be honest I do find it galling that Audi are charging £40k for the RS3 at base spec (so the thick end of £47k with the toys I'd want), but then I suspect Audi's hand was forced by their tiered pricing hierarchy.
Which would I rather own, the RS3 (for all sorts of reasons), but as I can't afford one would I buy the 1'er? No, I'd buy the even less spectacular S3 for the same money. Why? Because it fits most of my needs and I like it. If I spend thirty odd grand on the bimmer I'd always look at it and think 'boy you are one ugly mother'. Because design is an important consideration to me the Beemer fails as spectacularly in the aesthetic space as the Audi's do in the outright driving dynamics, but I know for a few quid I can fix most of the Audi's driving gremlins. Lookwise it's hard to polish the BMW's looks with any amount of money.
Artimus
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Nope! Now that would have been something for you to chew on
I do own a BMW though as well as the A3.The irony is out of those two I'd probably have the RS3 too, and it's probably the same reason as you; I really like the looks and useable performance but would have to admit it's not the driver's tool it should be with an RS monicker. I couldn't buy it new though at that price knowing you can buy a 54 plate Sportback that has the same essnetial interior and to many people look pretty much the same. Driving at 8-10/10ths and it won't deliver the same thrills as the BMW. Maybe it really is just a case of having the Haldex "chipped" to make it more rear driven and that might transform the car.
In answer to why it [1 series] is "better" in some areas, we can't start trying to discuss what "better" mean, it's a word and we know what it means, the 1 series is a better driver's car and appears to be faster after 80. These are performance cars offering thrills to the driver and that is how they are judged. If an estate diesel car with soft suspension offered no space, poor mpg and was uncomfortable it would be marked down for that as that is supposed to be its strength. AUDI's are famous for being dull cars to drive (getting better though). The old RS4 was raved by all the motoring press so I don't accept there is bias against AUDI. With regards to the 1-series looks.
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Again I agree to some extent, but then are Audi's dull because at every bend you aren't half expecting the back to come round on you and fire you into a ditch and kill you (in the same way an old TVR could on a wet day)?
Or are they dull because of the overbearing sense of control that is put in place with the Haldex system which eradicates the torque steer / wheel scrabbling / front end lift which makes the car feel (more controlled / slower) than some of the 2wd alternatives.
I concede quite happily that the tendency to understeer makes them a frustrating car to drive on the limit on a track (esp. with the wrong tyres), but I've never really found a situation where I find the S3 dull to drive on normal A/B roads. It's quick / capable / reassuring, and I sometimes wonder whether the motoring journo's who universally adopt the phrase 'Audi drive = dull' actually change their driving style to thread the car through bends rather than man handle it / over drive it in the pursuit of 'losing control' (e.g. finding its limits).
I'll give you an example. At Goodwood I was lucky enough to go in an R8 V10 with Jochi Klient who was European Rally Champion in the 80's (and is a tuition driver at Silverstone on the Audi experience). We were chatting about the car and how you thread a fast Audi through the tight turns of the hill climb track. He expressed in no uncertain terms you have to be more sensitive with your steering input, get all your braking done ahead of the corner, and never accelerate until you 100% certain you won't have to lift out of the throttle on the other side to complete the move, choose lines very carefully etc.. Now in my mind that seems pretty basic to the fundamentals of quick driving, but he said he can watch from outside the car and determine by the pitch and roll of the car whether a driver is driving unsympathetically (e.g. applying too much throttle to early in the corner / braking too late into corner etc.) and he prefers to monitor drivers from outside the car to get a sense of where they are going wrong before providing tuition (as he learns more)! Supposedly like with RWD, there is a specific way to extract the most from a 4wd car, and unfortunately we didn't get into that part of the conversation before the hill climb was done.
I intend to head to Silverstone (to Audi's driver training sessions) to find out what that is, but I would say that when he took the R8 up the hill climb we were going well over early 3 figure speeds, and his driving style was so calm it was akin to doing 50. No excessive input, smooth as silk. I tend to find if you manhandle the Audi's they do get understeery / slower (as the intervention of electronics kick in to regain composition etc.), and the better your driving capability the more you can drive around their weaknesses. If you wrestle them they just become a pain in the **** and quite unrewarding.
The RS3 is not an R8 though and we all know how good the R8 is and it's not your average AUDI - and the motoring journalists have said so too, but I don't really see any relevance in talking about an R8 V10. A good car to drive can still be involving and safe/grippy.
It's not just the haldex/quattro a3 I was referring too, just AUDIs in general. For example my A3 "Sport" is not sporty at all lol. It's too woolly, too soft, doesn't respond to steering or throttle inputs, but it has good road holding and reasonable grip so it's safe to drive but then so do most cars these days. But they are better in general these days. I was impressed with the A5 Sportback S-Line I drove earlier this year, it cornered really flat and the steering was much nicer than the A3 (more weighted), it wasn't what you'd call a driver's car, but it wasn't a wallowly old boat like say an old S4.
It's not just the haldex/quattro a3 I was referring too, just AUDIs in general. For example my A3 "Sport" is not sporty at all lol. It's too woolly, too soft, doesn't respond to steering or throttle inputs, but it has good road holding and reasonable grip so it's safe to drive but then so do most cars these days. But they are better in general these days. I was impressed with the A5 Sportback S-Line I drove earlier this year, it cornered really flat and the steering was much nicer than the A3 (more weighted), it wasn't what you'd call a driver's car, but it wasn't a wallowly old boat like say an old S4.
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I think a lot of the issue with the woolliness of Audi's comes down to the fact that they are engineered for the masses who have little more aspiration that to get from A - B safely. Understeer is more manageable for the average driver, so Audi engineer that tendency, and given the overhang and weight over the front wheels it's not surprising the Audi's do suffer. If you look at the overhang in front of the front wheel axis on an A3 only Concorde has more nose than an A3 against the length of it's overall wheelbase! Many cars seem to have so little overhang by comparison (e.g. mini / bmw)
Against A3:
and I appreciate some of this will reflect crash structures / size of engine & gearbox etc, but it does seem excessive. They've tipped the engine back in the 8V which may help, but visually it appears much the same story.
This is then accentuated by overly soft bushing in the steering and suspension, so unless you change roll bars, add anti lift kits, stiffen the suspension and change to some proper rubber the car will never feel pin sharp or pointy in the same way a BMW can. That said, there's no shortage of A3's round this neck of the woods, so the average buyer doesn't seem put off!
Against A3:
and I appreciate some of this will reflect crash structures / size of engine & gearbox etc, but it does seem excessive. They've tipped the engine back in the 8V which may help, but visually it appears much the same story.
This is then accentuated by overly soft bushing in the steering and suspension, so unless you change roll bars, add anti lift kits, stiffen the suspension and change to some proper rubber the car will never feel pin sharp or pointy in the same way a BMW can. That said, there's no shortage of A3's round this neck of the woods, so the average buyer doesn't seem put off!
Artimus
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did anybody see this video from the other similar thread? I think it makes the point as clear as day.
see how easy that happened?
edit: that's a 1M coupe BTW.
see how easy that happened?
edit: that's a 1M coupe BTW.
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Artimus
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My wife had a Lupo 'Sport' years ago and on closer inspection I found it had 1" bigger alloys, an exhaust with a centre exit (still same diameter as base model) and a 16V badge on the back of it. Other than a couple more bhp that was pretty much it. How that qualified as 'Sport' I'll never know, so I took it to RSD in Banbury and had it optimised as best as it could be. Rolled like a dog in submission before the suspension was changed.
essIII
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did anybody see this video from the other similar thread? I think it makes the point as clear as day.
(vid deleted)
see how easy that happened?
edit: that's a 1M coupe BTW.
LOL, you can find videos of knobs driving any car on Youtube - check out this **** in an Audi. Does your video mean all BMW's are going to spin in the rain? No. Does mine mean all Audi's will flip and roll in the rain? No.
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Artimus
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Find me a vid of a well maintained RS3 doing the same as the 1M, in the same conditions as my link and I'll agree with you, until then ...the point has obviously gone over your head.
Considering the conditions, the 1M let go because to wag its tail is in its nature - it may well be a demon on a track, but in normal, everyday conditions they're virtually un-driveable. Harris isn't a reviewer, he's a BMW salesman! ..and he has many people hood-winked with his glossing over of the short-comings of high powered, short wheel-base, RWD track cars like these.
and my video is the perfect example of how easy they let go when "commuting" in city traffic.
Considering the conditions, the 1M let go because to wag its tail is in its nature - it may well be a demon on a track, but in normal, everyday conditions they're virtually un-driveable. Harris isn't a reviewer, he's a BMW salesman! ..and he has many people hood-winked with his glossing over of the short-comings of high powered, short wheel-base, RWD track cars like these.
and my video is the perfect example of how easy they let go when "commuting" in city traffic.
essIII
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My point has obviously also gone over your head.
You posted 1 video of a 1M losing it's tail in the wet and then assumed that it is well maintained and concluded that "in everyday conditions they're virtually un-driveable". But you know nothing of:
1. The state of the driver. Was it his car, was it stolen, was he drunk, was he high, was he supremely incompetent, was he a test-pilot....
2. The state of the road. Was there something other than rain on there; fuel for example...
3. The state of the car. What tyres were on it, how many miles had they done, what suspension was on it...
My point was that single videos, in isolation, with no background knowledge, prove nothing other than that someone in Japan crashed a BMW 1M.
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Artimus
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I haven't assumed as much as you have.
The link in the other thread I spoke of, takes you to a Hong Kong forum where a lot of your points re the driver, conditions, car, etc are tackled. The driver has been identified as "capable".
Edit: sorry ..not "capable", "experienced" see for yourself .. That's why Quattro rules in rainy days... - VORSICHT Hong Kong
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I think describing a well sorted RWD car with 320bhp as "undriveable" because it requires a little more respect in the wet and one crashed in a video is a best naive as most supercars have much more power and RWD. Nobody's doubting that a 4wd car (eg RS3) in bad weather is easier to drive fast for your "average" driver, average being the key word as driving a RWD car does require more from the driver, hence can be more rewarding and involving to drive.
I know the Sport model isn't "really" sporty but the S-Line merely has stiffer springs connected to the same woolly chassis. It's like lowering an old Nova, it does not make it a 205GTi. The S-Line drives better for sure but it maintains the same level of lifeless steering and lack of response to throttle inputs. If the RS3 responded in anything remotely the same way you would be severely disappointed with your choice of £45k spend.
I know the Sport model isn't "really" sporty but the S-Line merely has stiffer springs connected to the same woolly chassis. It's like lowering an old Nova, it does not make it a 205GTi. The S-Line drives better for sure but it maintains the same level of lifeless steering and lack of response to throttle inputs. If the RS3 responded in anything remotely the same way you would be severely disappointed with your choice of £45k spend.
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Artimus
Shortback
I honestly can't decide if some people deliberately aim to wind other people up with their views on this so-called review, because it's so obviously biased you'd have to be blind not to see it for what it is ...It's a BMW Sales video! Not blaming Harris though - everybody's got to earn a living somehow, it's those that can't see through the scam that get my goat.
Artimus
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watch the video again & define "Bad Weather"
EDIT: sorry, my laptop juice as running low, so i posted before it turned off.
anywhoooo! ..the S-Line has stiffer & lower suspension than the Sport, The S is stiffer & lower again than the S-Line! This removes the woolly feeling you complain of. You can't judge the rest of the range based on your Sport model.
There's nothing wrong with the A3 chassis - it's stiff enough to handle more power than the Standard RS3 has, it just needs driving in a different manner to a RWD car to get the best out of it - which is exactly the point Warren was trying to make regarding the R8, which you earlier dismissed as irrelevant.
Ohh ..and lowering a standard 205 DOES make it a 205GTi. so your definition is completely void
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Artimus, he prefers the M135i for the reasons we've gone over and over, the RS3 is not as good a car as it should have been which does it no favours in this "lesser" company but gets mentions about it's powerplant and all-weather performance. There are more reviews of the RS3 concurring with Harris' conclusion about the car than disagreeing.
I really don't know what your getting at but like a dog with a bone I don't think you're going to give up on this.
If you know anything about road conditions you will recognise that the damp conditions in that video can be some of the most slippery you will experience when driving. If you've ever driven on a track it's at it's most slippery in conditions like that NOT when it's lashing down with rain. We could also add elements such as a long hot dry period before rain making the roads extremely greasy, but that is just guessing.
Leave the big powered scary RWD cars to the big boys!
I haven't assumed as much as you have.
The link in the other thread I spoke of, takes you to a Hong Kong forum where a lot of your points re the driver, conditions, car, etc are tackled. The driver has been identified as "capable".
Edit: sorry ..not "capable", "experienced" see for yourself .. That's why Quattro rules in rainy days... - VORSICHT Hong Kong
Every response in that thread regarding the driver and accident to is pure conjecture and guess work?
Biased at all? lol
Artimus
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see my edit above.
a. you wouldn't think the review was an honest & unbiased assessment of two cars.
b. you wouldn't think all A3\S3's handle like your Sport.
lol! that video is shot in Hong Kong, not England! it's in a City, not a country lane prone to greasy or leafy conditions, the roads are clean, not dirty and if you had a clue about cars or driving:I really don't know what your getting at but like a dog with a bone I don't think you're going to give up on this.
If you know anything about road conditions you will recognise that the damp conditions in that video can be some of the most slippery you will experience when driving. If you've ever driven on a track it's at it's most slippery in conditions like that NOT when it's lashing down with rain. We could also add elements such as a long hot dry period before rain making the roads extremely greasy, but that is just guessing.
Leave the big powered scary RWD cars to the big boys!
a. you wouldn't think the review was an honest & unbiased assessment of two cars.
b. you wouldn't think all A3\S3's handle like your Sport.
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If you want something more involving then buy a track car and take it to a track. In real world safety comes first as you are not alone and acutally a less involving car means less situations where someone can get killed/injured. Few weeks back I put my foot down while starting of the lights and managed to achieve little 4 wheels drift, was really pleasant feeling but if it was RWD I would have ended up in a ditch. If you're good driver you wont need a road car to be involving in my opinion as you know roads are not for racing.
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essIII
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see my edit above.
lol! that video is shot in Hong Kong, not England! it's in a City, not a country lane prone to greasy or leafy conditions, the roads are clean, not dirty and if you had a clue about cars or driving:
a. you wouldn't think the review was an honest & unbiased assessment of two cars.
b. you wouldn't think all A3\S3's handle like your Sport.
I'll try to avoid the sort of personal remarks being chucked around here but:
1. Putting a road in a city does not make it clean. Lorries and cars drive on roads, they spew stuff all over them - not leaves, but oil, unburnt fuel etc..
2. I assume you weren't on that section of road in Hong Kong when the video was taken, and so aren't really qualified to comment on whether the road was 'clean' or not.
3. I assume you've never lived with a BMW M135i and an Audi RS3 - without having done so, are you qualified to give an honest and unbiased assessment of Chris Harris' review?
Artimus said:
FYI - Warren has also stated that his biggest concern with the RS3 is that it's based on a 10 year old A3 platform, never designed to cope with the power of a standard RS3.
Artimus said:
I'll admit that I'm no expert, but I thought the GTi had a different engine (well, a choice of 2) and different brakes also. And I'd be surprised if that was the total extent of the under-the-covers differences.
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Back in 2003 when the 8P launched the halo model was the 3.2V6 Quattro which isn't a bad engine at all. But with 247bhp it was nearly 100bhp shy of where the car is with the 2.5T lump under the bonnet.
Whereas the B7 RS4 had the flared arches, a wider track and had always been in the development plan for Audi, I'm not sure the RS3 was ever firmly in the production schedule. It always seemed like more of a reaction to BMW releasing the 1M than a firmed up development project. I appreciate they have used carbon reinforced plastics to reduce weight, and they put wider tyres on the 19's (235's front with the option of 255's), but to me this felt like a sticking plaster to a solution rather than a full on assault. My last S3 ran 360bhp on standard brakes and suspension for a while and it wasn't great, so Audi have obviously worked some magic to tighten things up a bit.
Is the battery in the boot or in the engine bay on the RS3? The A3 3.2V6 had the battery wisely mounted in the boot to balance some weight out, but I was surprised that the standard TT also uses this trick whereas the S3 doesn't. Again it stinks of short cutting in the A3 platform to maximise revenue. That said the profit margin is less than the Golf R which costs more than the S3???
What does surprise me is that the Haldex R Golf's have always been lauded by motoring Journo's as the better car (over Audi S3 particularly), yet fundamentally there is a lot of part / platform sharing going on, so how come the Golf is always applauded yet the Audi's are not? And so starts another discussion....
Whereas the B7 RS4 had the flared arches, a wider track and had always been in the development plan for Audi, I'm not sure the RS3 was ever firmly in the production schedule. It always seemed like more of a reaction to BMW releasing the 1M than a firmed up development project. I appreciate they have used carbon reinforced plastics to reduce weight, and they put wider tyres on the 19's (235's front with the option of 255's), but to me this felt like a sticking plaster to a solution rather than a full on assault. My last S3 ran 360bhp on standard brakes and suspension for a while and it wasn't great, so Audi have obviously worked some magic to tighten things up a bit.
Is the battery in the boot or in the engine bay on the RS3? The A3 3.2V6 had the battery wisely mounted in the boot to balance some weight out, but I was surprised that the standard TT also uses this trick whereas the S3 doesn't. Again it stinks of short cutting in the A3 platform to maximise revenue. That said the profit margin is less than the Golf R which costs more than the S3???
What does surprise me is that the Haldex R Golf's have always been lauded by motoring Journo's as the better car (over Audi S3 particularly), yet fundamentally there is a lot of part / platform sharing going on, so how come the Golf is always applauded yet the Audi's are not? And so starts another discussion....
Artimus
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all in the name of Banter!
I may be new to Audi's, but I'm not new to cars\trucks or driving! I've been driving since '78 when I was 16 (do the math & keep the results to yourself) - even though I didn't take and pass a test until '89.
you can tell the road is clean because the camera car would show dirty spray on the windscreen if it was dirty or greasy - a case of simple deduction, my dear Watson.
My assessment of the review is based on what he does with & says about the cars - his achievements are often different to what he says - meaning he's not being honest! in a time trial, quicker usually wins ..but obviously that doesn't count for anything in this case. why bother with a time trial if you're going to dismiss the results?
Let me answer that: because if you don't do a time trial, people will say you're hiding something! So do one, lose and then dismiss it as irrelevant. sorted.
Warren also pointed out he was referring to the longer front overhang on the A3 compared to the Mini\BMW! The Engine is hanging out over the front wheels on the A3, but this doesn't mean chassis flex is an issue - which is what c-w seems to think is his problem (wrongly, btw), it means the weight of the engine will push the car wider in high speed bends than a car with the engine tucked further back behind the front wheels, the heavier overhang has a pendulum effect penalty.
I'll digress that it takes more than lowered suspension to change a standard 205 into a GTi! springs, shocks, wheels, tyres, & steering rack is needed - 1.6 engine tuning and badging if you're being pedantic! but the point is, c-w is starting with an old nova and wanted to create a 205, when he should be starting with an old 205 ..the chassis\sub-frame wouldn't need any extra stiffening like an old Nova would! So 205>205GTi would be the correct comparison.
anyway! I'm done trying to get the unreasonable to see reason. have a good day.
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