2WD or not?

[jojo]

Funny poll this... I'm in the process of making my S3 track ready! We've all seen how succesful Prawn is with his A3 track car, and it Fwd! And since I will need to change the rear diff at some point, I was considering junking it altogether!! lol

So should all S3's stay 4wd, or shall I convert it 2wd to save weight, and possibly make it more fun to drive at the expense of traction coming out of corners?

Edit:Forgot to mention that in the event of replacing the rear diff, I have a Haldex Performance Controller to go on.

 

[Tj 0785]

if Solely going to be a track car ditch it and save the weight and sell me the performance controller

 

[ToughlilT]

ditch the haldex, save some weight and sell on that controller, you've seen the absurd money Chris Mcdermott get for those things. Will pay for some car parts

 

[superkarl]

4WD

Because a fair assessment of its track ability needs to be made

 

[AGB-S3]

probably get nothing but wheel spin , was the chassis designed with 4wd ? i thought it was based on the short wheel base quattro , if so , probably handle like pig under load , wrong power distribution

 

[andrew_wright]

Power on and off would be my worry with Quattro. I'd always go with fwd...so much more predictable in the corners

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[AGB-S3]

true , its the wrong 4x4 system , with no ability split power delivery , its same as the first gen , perhaps the rs3 would do better with the center diff , s3 front diff is nothing special ?

 

[Tj 0785]

A3 is fwd and handles it fine, I ran my s3 in fwd for a while when the haldex controller failed, it still Gripped only span when launching in the wet but once moving it was fine

probably get nothing but wheel spin , was the chassis designed with 4wd ? i thought it was based on the short wheel base quattro , if so , probably handle like pig under load , wrong power distribution

 

[AGB-S3]

I did say 'under load' -) ,

ford used to say , over 200 BHP in front wheel drive was uncontrollable , that was before 'modern' traction control. but, they still had problems with the fast focus , the s3 is back to front , the haldex should bring the front in 'gradually ,as did the fluid front drive transfer box on the cosworth ford 4x4 and escort 4x4 and later the small Jag , same system , [NOT the electric mondeo lash-up]

 

[andrew_wright]

true , its the wrong 4x4 system , with no ability split power delivery , its same as the first gen , perhaps the rs3 would do better with the center diff , s3 front diff is nothing special ?

On track the s3 in my opinion is for the skilled driver only (not saying your not)....on back roads....balls of steel. A3 1.8t you can throw it about and pretty much know what that back end is going to do....if you haven't had the back end out on a fwd car before your not pushing it hard enough lol...first time it happened to my I was sliding towards a police station by chance….frit my self anyway my point is..hit a bump power down going round a bend and watch the power swap wheel's...makes for interesting times.

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[AGB-S3]

lifting off can be troublesome, a good motto is ' if in danger or in doubt , always keep it flat out '

the xr4x4 with the cosworth 24v engine , drifted everywhere, the amount of drift was linked to the accelerator , it just went sideways , but at least it was parallel , I think the s3 grips a little too well , maybe it needs more power, but the transition from on-track to slide , seems to happen at a more defined point , yes ,back tends to hang out then

 

[voorhees]

I have to admit I was gutted when on the safety induction the instructor said quattro isn't helpful on a tarmac track as its weight.
FWD is the way forward Joe

 

[desertstorm]

All depends on how much power and torque you intend to get from the car. I know I tried taking the fuse out of the haldex on my TT when it was running 275bhp and 300Lb/ft and I got some serious wheel spin going on. If the car had a LSD and nice sticky tyres then that probably wouldn't have happened.

 

[hendo#1]

When I had my S3 I had naughty thoughts of taking the front transfer box, prop, haldex, diff and rear driveshafts (split at the wheel bearing cup) out.

The haldex 4x4 system offers zero benefit on track.

I thought it would be interesting to lose a whole load of weight and still retain the independant axles at the back.

As long as you have decent tyres, once you are over 20mph, FWD is no problem.

 

[Prawn]

ford used to say , over 200 BHP in front wheel drive was uncontrollable , that was before 'modern' traction control.

I'm fairly sure that dinosaurs roamed the streets when such statements were made. I think those sentiments died out with the big scaly carnivores too!

North of 500bhp here, front wheel drive with no traction control at all.

Can see for yourself from ~5:00 here:



It does OK!

 

[ADs3]

When I had my S3 I had naughty thoughts of taking the front transfer box, prop, haldex, diff and rear driveshafts (split at the wheel bearing cup) out.

The haldex 4x4 system offers zero benefit on track.

I thought it would be interesting to lose a whole load of weight and still retain the independant axles at the back.

As long as you have decent tyres, once you are over 20mph, FWD is no problem.

Has anyone done this & worked out how much weight is saved by weighing everything thats been removed?

 

[AGB-S3]

big scaly carnivores too!

Yes , but the even bigger Veggie lovers , had two brains , bit like the haldex , traction control in the front , and one close to the rear end to keep that in shape )

Nothing new under the sun, but , in this case , yes as the Ford user book for the xr4x4 stated . '' 4 wheel drive , cannot change the laws of physic's '' but , very few rally's are won with fwd cars these days , F1 is in discussions round allowing AWD and as far as I can see , most if not all of the serious performance vehicles are awd

audi raced the defunct group B rally cars as ~ 1000 Hp awd for a while and did quite well on tarmac race track , exiting corners was the main point of interest , re the awd , compared to the conventional entrants ..

in this case. make the best of what you already have ? , I see its possible to get a limited slip rear diff as well as enhanced control gear, but , its down to $

 

[desertstorm]

On a slightly different note still related to track days I went to Castle Combe on Saturday and had a run out in the TT. They had BMW drift cars out in the break and one went off at Quarry. Just found a video on You tube and It's a pity they didn't have these barriers when you went off in the S3.


And another E36 BMW in the same place.


Both these cars are 2wd

 

[superkarl]

Both these cars are 2wd

What the hell is wrong with this guy?!? What a total moron

 

[badger5]

On a slightly different note still related to track days I went to Castle Combe on Saturday and had a run out in the TT. They had BMW drift cars out in the break and one went off at Quarry. Just found a video on You tube and It's a pity they didn't have these barriers when you went off in the S3.


And another E36 BMW in the same place.


Both these cars are 2wd

both cars also bmw's................... hmmmm. lol.

 

[desertstorm]

What the hell is wrong with this guy?!? What a total moron

Were you referring to the guy driving the second BMW who managed to nearly wipe out several cars and then 2 laps later stuffed it in the fence. Or was that aimed at me?. I was joking with the smiley face and not trying to say that 2wd cars don't handle because being on the track with several BMW M3's at the weekend I would love to be able to carry that much corner speed .
Tony Hutchings in his MK1 TT at Combe, a class winning car and it's FWD.

 

[superkarl]

Were you referring to the guy driving the second BMW who managed to nearly wipe out several cars and then 2 laps later stuffed it in the fence. Or was that aimed at me?. I was joking with the smiley face and not trying to say that 2wd cars don't handle because being on the track with several BMW M3's at the weekend I would love to be able to carry that much corner speed .
Tony Hutchings in his MK1 TT at Combe, a class winning car and it's FWD.

Absolutely referring to the idiot who can’t seem to keep his car on the hard black stuff


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[jojo]

To be honest, I will adapt my driving style to whichever route I go, I know how both systems operate, I’ve had enough experience. I believe whatever I do, I can still reverse engineer it back either ways.

Some good pointers from your replies though, and I’ve personally sat in Prawns track car doing a few la, but I’m nowhere near his driving ability, and have no near future plans to go to his power levels. I just want a reliable track car if there’s such a thing? Lol. With the current car in road tuned spec not showing reliability at all! Haha.

Ps. Haldex controller isn’t for sale.

 

[jojo]

Surprised that the vote split is practically 50/50 aswell.

Cheers.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Go 3 wheel drive to match the number of working cylinders you have?

<tuffty/>

 

[Rainbird]

 

[jojo]

Go 3 wheel drive to match the number of working cylinders you have?

<tuffty/>

Lol! Back running on 4 now.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Lol! Back running on 4 now.

You have your answer then

Its not grip 'out' of corners you need to worry about

2wd with the quattro rear suspension setup seems like a decent idea tbh... given you are probably not going to plough money into an engine build for more power it would be sensible to optimise the chassis for the power you have...

<tuffty/>

 

[Vex182]

You have your answer then

Its not grip 'out' of corners you need to worry about

2wd with the quattro rear suspension setup seems like a decent idea tbh... given you are probably not going to plough money into an engine build for more power it would be sensible to optimise the chassis for the power you have...

<tuffty/>

How would this work? Surely you need to leave the outer cv joints or something in to support the wheel bearings.

 

[<tuffty/>]

How would this work? Surely you need to leave the outer cv joints or something in to support the wheel bearings.

Pretty much that yes... Leon SuperCopa cars did this... AWD rear subframe with the rear diff removed, used a stub axle type setup (like an outer CV with no internals but a proper part)...

You could essentially a stripped outer CV to do it...

<tuffty/>

 

[jojo]

What Tuffty said, I have a spare pair of rear drive shafts I can strip down, remove rear diff and prop, and either blank the transfer box off, leave it in situ or source an LCR box.

 

[Vex182]

What Tuffty said, I have a spare pair of rear drive shafts I can strip down, remove rear diff and prop, and either blank the transfer box off, leave it in situ or source an LCR box.

It would be interesting to see how it went. Wonder how much weight it would save too.

 

[noahprince]

Have a look at R32oc, TTforum and vwvortex forums where you can see threads of the big improvements the rear LSD and front LSD adds to the haldex systems (specially the rear one). They all said -and shows lap times- to prove its better than the cornering speed of a subaru and can face the evo acd awd with the lsd’s in. Think that at the track is better to improve traction that to lose weight (and worsen even more our ****** weight distribution) all said it will be so nice to see an 8l s3 pussing from the back like a propper awd car, not just engaging when lossing front traction.

 

[killfame]

Make a fuse switch 2wd/4wd mode - on/off all the time?
I am planing on getting Track Insert for "50/50" and making my Fuse with 'ON/OFF' (2wd/4wd) switch..
Since Track Insert ain't good any near for daily driving.

 

[desertstorm]

I run the 50/50 track insert in my TT and drive it more as a daily than a track car. Having permanent 4WD does have an impact on fuel economy , I would say a few mpg. But I have tried running the car without the fuse in and it's completely useless being just FWD with 460bhp and 370Lb/ft of torque. Even when it was running just 275bhp and 300Lb/ft it's fairly easy to spin the wheels up.

 

[killfame]

I run the 50/50 track insert in my TT and drive it more as a daily than a track car. Having permanent 4WD does have an impact on fuel economy , I would say a few mpg. But I have tried running the car without the fuse in and it's completely useless being just FWD with 460bhp and 370Lb/ft of torque. Even when it was running just 275bhp and 300Lb/ft it's fairly easy to spin the wheels up.

What about haldex clutch? Someone wrote that clutch discs worn faster on daily bases, what’s your experience?