Audi S3 "Punisher" 2.1L stroker build, image heavy

[Warsuperior]

So I have started to acquire parts to build 2067cc engine

Car is -99 S3 and its basically rebuild, here is topic for that:
https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-gtx2860r-gen-ii-build.364995/

Parts list so far:
- AGU bigport engine from my A3
- JE-pistons 83mm CR 9.5:1 (thanks to http://rosten-performance.com/ for great price and customer service!)
- Cat 3658 cams with adjustable gears
- H-profile rifle drilled 144/20mm rods
- Rennsport intake modified
- 80mm Throttle body
- Ignitron ECU
- Full rebuild stuff for engine, oil pump, chains, gaskets etc.
- Refurbish parts for AGU head and slightly modify exhaust ports
- ALH crank 95.5mm
- China fuel rail
- Adjustable FPR
- Billet FPR "holder"
- K&N cone filter
- 3" SS exhaust system DIY with magnaflow mufflers
- Ekagrip plates for flywheel and camgears
- Adjustable camgear
- R8 coils
- Stack boost pressure modded to red light
- 14 row oilcooler + thermostat controlled oil by-pass
- 600*300*76mm FMIC high flow
- girdle
- Walpro GLS392 fuel pump
- AFP 265LPH in-tank pump
- HKS "copy" SQV dumb valve 40mm
- PLX wideband+EGT gauges
- ARP stud kit
- 630cc injectors but these must be upgrated to match power

And lots of more, which has made me incredibly poor
I bought tools also and have spend nearly 1000 € on them.

Turbo is still question and I am open for suggestions. I wont rev over 7600rpm at least at this point of.
Power I aim is 500-550bhp
Setup might change along the way.

Boring 1.4bar driving vid

Boring dyno video @ 1bar

 

[andrew_wright]

Nice

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Bluepower]

Nice build!!
I still have one of those intake manifolds for sale

As for the turbo, I would go with the G25-660

 

[Stuart B]

Interesting you are fitting a girdle to your engine! Are you going for 800bhp?

 

[Warsuperior]

Interesting you are fitting a girdle to your engine! Are you going for 800bhp?

Heh that would be lovely but to my knowledge that car has a V6 engine
No, Im aiming for 550-600hp and well my brother can laser cut the girdle with parts so its basically free for me
I know the block wont need it but cant harm. Still things might change as long as I am gathering parts.

My engine is in car that has approx 2metres of snow on top of it so this has no hurry
Mean time Im settling for 400hp on my current build
Very happy how the 1.8l engine turned out with GTX turbo! it still could push more but I havent got time to put in bigger fuel pump.

 

[badger5]

 

[Warsuperior]

Taking tips and advice how to reinforce gearbox and is there any possibility to reinforce bewel box?

 

[badger5]

Taking tips and advice how to reinforce gearbox and is there any possibility to reinforce bewel box?

only seen external steel cages applied to t'fer box for attempt at strengthening.

Also building 2.1 in my TT currently.

 

[Warsuperior]

only seen external steel cages applied to t'fer box for attempt at strengthening.

Also building 2.1 in my TT currently.

Could you share specs on your build? How high are you revving it? What valvetrain parts?


Many say that this would not rev high with 95.5mm stroke is just plain silly. Friend drives Pro Stock and has a v8 with 4" stroke which revs 13000rpm
Also when I ask to prove me it cant rev, they actually have just "heard" it btw I dont mean you by this!
Of course pro stock cars are heavily rebuild so its not 1:1 comparison

 

[badger5]

Could you share specs on your build? How high are you revving it? What valvetrain parts?


Many say that this would not rev high with 95.5mm stroke is just plain silly. Friend drives Pro Stock and has a v8 with 4" stroke which revs 13000rpm
Also when I ask to prove me it cant rev, they actually have just "heard" it btw I dont mean you by this!
Of course pro stock cars are heavily rebuild so its not 1:1 comparison

nothing mad about the spec. knife edged lightened/balanced crank being done at the moment..
8.5:1 83mm je's (cos they were available new/unused at good price)
our catcams, supertech valvetrain, catgold springs, some largeport head (maybe go ported smallport i'm not sure yet, vvt, g25-660 turbo, 1000cc injectors........ IECU etc..

 

[Warsuperior]

are you using diesel crank? It is quite heavy, Im wondering should I lighten mine too when I take it to balancing.
Those Je's are cheap indeed but I got my pistons for 773€ so they are very competitive priced I wanted to have more CR to get that sluggish feeling off my car.
About G25-660 what A/R you are thinking and what are your power plans?
Im just wondering that will I again be disappointed by buying too "small" turbo or should I just invest for example precision 5858

 

[badger5]

are you using diesel crank? It is quite heavy, Im wondering should I lighten mine too when I take it to balancing.
Those Je's are cheap indeed but I got my pistons for 773€ so they are very competitive priced I wanted to have more CR to get that sluggish feeling off my car.
About G25-660 what A/R you are thinking and what are your power plans?
Im just wondering that will I again be disappointed by buying too "small" turbo or should I just invest for example precision 5858

yes, diesel 95mm crank & 83mm bore hence 2.1
my je's were swap for something else I had, so v.good price.
0.72 small a/r I will use. might even try the 550 on it.. spool hard from idle. lol

 

[Warsuperior]

yes, diesel 95mm crank & 83mm bore hence 2.1
my je's were swap for something else I had, so v.good price.
0.72 small a/r I will use. might even try the 550 on it.. spool hard from idle. lol

Thank you for info Im going to lighten the crank when I take it to balancing.
You are using external wastegate?

I googled lot about strenghtening the gearbox and transfer box but the ones that actually would help, cost near 5000€ so that is out of question.
Transfer box seems to be weakest link and the 1&2 gear "pin"
Nothing lot can be done for transfer so I guess not going to launch lot and going to buy a spare one with gearbox

My a3 has lot better gear ratio or feels like it. It accelerates on second gear up till 110-115 km/h so I could get lots better acceleration if use gears from that.
Again any advice on rations are greatly appreciated

have you tested the G25-660 or do you have info how does it spool up/perform on 2.1l engine?
Precision has surge compressor casing etc. ready so that would be great, of course price must be whole lot more. (5862 gen 2 precision 2204€ so nope )
G25-550 seems to similar to my GTX2860r gen II but g25-550 can push 75hp more. Spool seems to be same.
hard to decide... I would like it to spool fast but also I could use ALS and sametime I dont want it to be too little.

At the moment you have to drive bit carefully since all the power comes instant (boost creep up to 2bar) and that might give you some surpises if loose traction example I lost traction on acceleration from 120kmh and had 4 wheel spinning (of course icy road) and that did give me quite scare
Had to be careful not to lift pedal before sliding was under control and at that point I had over 140Km/h

btw any idea when you get your setup together so I could see how it performs?

 

[Prawn]

Could you share specs on your build? How high are you revving it? What valvetrain parts?


Many say that this would not rev high with 95.5mm stroke is just plain silly. Friend drives Pro Stock and has a v8 with 4" stroke which revs 13000rpm
Also when I ask to prove me it cant rev, they actually have just "heard" it btw I dont mean you by this!
Of course pro stock cars are heavily rebuild so its not 1:1 comparison

What your friends V8 does with a 4" stroke is meaningless.

You're talking about something here that you don't fully understand.

Ability, or willingness to rev, is a function of how 'square' an engine is. Square being an engine with equal bore and stroke.

Bike Engines are over square, they have a very short stroke relative to their bore. this gives them pretty small rod angles and also sensible piston speeds. this is why they rev so high and make so little torque.

Lazy car engines are under square by design. The 1.8T is undersquare from the factory, and lengthening stroke takes it further from square. It increases rod angles and piston speeds, because for a given revolution done in a given time, the piston has had to travel further. Undersquare engines by design make more torque, but don't tend to rev as high.

Arguably, as Bill has found, this doesn't seem to effect the 2.0 stroker cars at all, as other parts of the power train determine how high it wants to rev long before the bore/stroke becomes a factor.

With the case of a 2.1 I've heard lots of owners saying they're not keen to go much beyond 7000rpm due to the rod angles involved. Whether this is them not wanting to find out, or a function of the long stroke, the theory behind it is certainly sound.

As usual, Bill will be testing one and will find out and I'm sure he'll be kind enough to share the results.

In the mean time, try to avoid muddying the waters on a topic you don't fully understand.

 

[Warsuperior]

What your friends V8 does with a 4" stroke is meaningless.

You're talking about something here that you don't fully understand.

Ability, or willingness to rev, is a function of how 'square' an engine is. Square being an engine with equal bore and stroke.

Bike Engines are over square, they have a very short stroke relative to their bore. this gives them pretty small rod angles and also sensible piston speeds. this is why they rev so high and make so little torque.

Lazy car engines are under square by design. The 1.8T is undersquare from the factory, and lengthening stroke takes it further from square. It increases rod angles and piston speeds, because for a given revolution done in a given time, the piston has had to travel further. Undersquare engines by design make more torque, but don't tend to rev as high.

Arguably, as Bill has found, this doesn't seem to effect the 2.0 stroker cars at all, as other parts of the power train determine how high it wants to rev long before the bore/stroke becomes a factor.

With the case of a 2.1 I've heard lots of owners saying they're not keen to go much beyond 7000rpm due to the rod angles involved. Whether this is them not wanting to find out, or a function of the long stroke, the theory behind it is certainly sound.

As usual, Bill will be testing one and will find out and I'm sure he'll be kind enough to share the results.

In the mean time, try to avoid muddying the waters on a topic you don't fully understand.

I do understand all you just wrote and more.
Thing that I really didnt start to open it more got you wrong understanding of my knowledge.
My english is poor so you get most likely wrong picture of me anyways, but I always appreciate input so thank you and you put in solid info for others to read too.

Not the first engine with bad "rod angle"/not square engine.
As for revving 8k is fine for me, besides high revving engine have shorter service life.
There is also plenty of people revving this 2.1l engine over 9k even so its not impossible.
I ask a lot because you usually get some more info and ideas when others answer. I like communities where you can have a talk and get more ideas not just post that I did this and that because that would be more like a blog

Reading more and G25-660 does seem to be a pretty solid choice.

 

[Prawn]

Ok, apologies if I came across a bit strong.

It may well be that a 2067cc engine revs happily to 8k in 20v form, but the theory of under square engines being less revvy than their square or over square counterparts is sound for sure.

 

[Warsuperior]

Anyone have ideas of reasonable priced external wastegate? I dont think G25-660 would benefit having internal wastegate and since Im going to have to ask someone to manufacture me exhaust manifold.
Are those china Tial etc. copies from hell or not?

 

[Tj 0785]

Don’t get a trial copy or the turbosmart copy go by the brand name “trix” you can get the turbosmart waste gates for cheaper than tail and gfb and seem to be rated well

 

[badger5]

Thank you for info Im going to lighten the crank when I take it to balancing.
You are using external wastegate?

I googled lot about strenghtening the gearbox and transfer box but the ones that actually would help, cost near 5000€ so that is out of question.
Transfer box seems to be weakest link and the 1&2 gear "pin"
Nothing lot can be done for transfer so I guess not going to launch lot and going to buy a spare one with gearbox

My a3 has lot better gear ratio or feels like it. It accelerates on second gear up till 110-115 km/h so I could get lots better acceleration if use gears from that.
Again any advice on rations are greatly appreciated

have you tested the G25-660 or do you have info how does it spool up/perform on 2.1l engine?
Precision has surge compressor casing etc. ready so that would be great, of course price must be whole lot more. (5862 gen 2 precision 2204€ so nope )
G25-550 seems to similar to my GTX2860r gen II but g25-550 can push 75hp more. Spool seems to be same.
hard to decide... I would like it to spool fast but also I could use ALS and sametime I dont want it to be too little.

At the moment you have to drive bit carefully since all the power comes instant (boost creep up to 2bar) and that might give you some surpises if loose traction example I lost traction on acceleration from 120kmh and had 4 wheel spinning (of course icy road) and that did give me quite scare
Had to be careful not to lift pedal before sliding was under control and at that point I had over 140Km/h

btw any idea when you get your setup together so I could see how it performs?

G25-550 and GTX2860 spool will not be the same

 

[badger5]

There is also plenty of people revving this 2.1l engine over 9k even so its not impossible.

"plenty of people?"

Really?

Where are they all

 

[Warsuperior]

"plenty of people?"

Really?

Where are they all

Over the bond, land mass called USA, Germany, here in finland few

G25-550 and GTX2860 spool will not be the same

I dont have hands on evidence about this, just charts so they might be wrong. Im not here to arque

Here is on 2.1l setup GTX2860R gen2 vs G25-660

and 660 seems very good choice.

And catcam vs stock hp difference.

 

[badger5]

Over the bond, land mass called USA, Germany, here in finland few


I dont have hands on evidence about this, just charts so they might be wrong. Im not here to arque

Here is on 2.1l setup GTX2860R gen2 vs G25-660

and 660 seems very good choice.

And catcam vs stock hp difference.

USA land of the happy dyno and E85. haha
I do have hands on experience.......... so when I tell you GTX2860 wont spool like the new G25-550........... its not internet myth.
On a 2.1........ no idea. doubt anyones done it let alone shared actual data. I will be trying it because I want soonest torque onset on my build.. See what it does for fact. We shall see.
Cams, we use are catcams to our spec.. and have for us on gt35 stroker added >100bhp for small loss on onset of torque

 

[Warsuperior]

USA land of the happy dyno and E85. haha
I do have hands on experience.......... so when I tell you GTX2860 wont spool like the new G25-550........... its not internet myth.
On a 2.1........ no idea. doubt anyones done it let alone shared actual data. I will be trying it because I want soonest torque onset on my build.. See what it does for fact. We shall see.
Cams, we use are catcams to our spec.. and have for us on gt35 stroker added >100bhp for small loss on onset of torque

I havent doubted your knowledge

New G25 has new "ultra efficient" wheel desing etc. so yeah when I posted it spools like same and after it have been reading lot about G25-660 and 550 they are different. So I was wrong but I can admit it when I am wrong when precented new material to show me Thats how you learn.
Im not arrogant or trying to be a person who knows all, none can know all, thats why you learn your whole life

E85 is going to be my fuel too at some point so I have to take that into account when I buy new injectors.
That cam figure I posted is for the ones I use 3658
Well I guess we both shall see how G25-660 works then
Decided to buy g25-660 +44mm wastegate with water cooling.

 

[badger5]

I havent doubted your knowledge

New G25 has new "ultra efficient" wheel desing etc. so yeah when I posted it spools like same and after it have been reading lot about G25-660 and 550 they are different. So I was wrong but I can admit it when I am wrong when precented new material to show me Thats how you learn.
Im not arrogant or trying to be a person who knows all, none can know all, thats why you learn your whole life

E85 is going to be my fuel too at some point so I have to take that into account when I buy new injectors.
That cam figure I posted is for the ones I use 3658
Well I guess we both shall see how G25-660 works then
Decided to buy g25-660 +44mm wastegate with water cooling.

3658 wont be vvt friendly with a lot of piston designs.. maybe not an issue for whatever you're buying but bare that in mind
3665 would be a vvt friendly grind (not a listed cam)

maybe its the language barrier... but you do come across as posting things as fact a lot........ when they're not
that said I could'nt begin to communicate with you in your native language so who am I to tell you. lol
judging folks by just the written word looses a lot..

If E85 allow yourself +40% over on injector sizing. you will be getting some great results on that fuel from what I see others do. Wish we had the stuff here in the UK.

 

[Warsuperior]

3658 wont be vvt friendly with a lot of piston designs.. maybe not an issue for whatever you're buying but bare that in mind
3665 would be a vvt friendly grind (not a listed cam)

maybe its the language barrier... but you do come across as posting things as fact a lot........ when they're not
that said I could'nt begin to communicate with you in your native language so who am I to tell you. lol
judging folks by just the written word looses a lot..

If E85 allow yourself +40% over on injector sizing. you will be getting some great results on that fuel from what I see others do. Wish we had the stuff here in the UK.

I try hone my language skills

Thanks for info about vvt and cam, can you tell could it be problem with my piston design?

E85 is great but injector size would need to be in 1400cc class so I dont really know are they anymore good to tune on gasoline and driveability. Also on emissions test, can it pass it with big injectors. Old times used to have issues with big injectors with megasquirt but ignitron is on very different level so perhaps not a problem?

 

[badger5]

I try hone my language skills

Thanks for info about vvt and cam, can you tell could it be problem with my piston design?

E85 is great but injector size would need to be in 1400cc class so I dont really know are they anymore good to tune on gasoline and driveability. Also on emissions test, can it pass it with big injectors. Old times used to have issues with big injectors with megasquirt but ignitron is on very different level so perhaps not a problem?

do you have a larger picture of the pistons.. looks a curious design with that inner ring. The danger point will be the relief cutout for the centre inlet valve and vvt active.. (advances cam +22 crank degrees). 3658 will hit centre valve on centre valve "just" when on vvt. Add a skim of head/block to the equation and its definate contact.. Certainly not sufficient clearance.
Injector wise, spray pattern and low on time linearisation (accomodated to an extent with the vw table and playing with injector dead times in iecu) is the usual problem. Poor spray pattern injectors wont tune nice, even with iecu.. fuel pooling is a mechanical issue.

 

[Warsuperior]

do you have a larger picture of the pistons.. looks a curious design with that inner ring. The danger point will be the relief cutout for the centre inlet valve and vvt active.. (advances cam +22 crank degrees). 3658 will hit centre valve on centre valve "just" when on vvt. Add a skim of head/block to the equation and its definate contact.. Certainly not sufficient clearance.
Injector wise, spray pattern and low on time linearisation (accomodated to an extent with the vw table and playing with injector dead times in iecu) is the usual problem. Poor spray pattern injectors wont tune nice, even with iecu.. fuel pooling is a mechanical issue.

Design is for better flame travel, thats why they look like that. I took you plenty of pics
Good thing you mentioned VVT, I didnt take my cams into account when I ordered pistons so I might have to drop VVT or do you think I have to drop my cams too? this is what happens when you dont thing far enough ahead... <-means me!

Any recommentations on injectors are appreciated too.

EDIT: I got info from seller that they have room enough for these cams and VVT if tuned to catcams spec but no more advance. Anyways Im going to check it to make sure before assembling, just have to figure out how to get the VVT advance to show when engine is not running

 

[badger5]

the centre valve cutout looks pretty much same as std... which is valve contact on 3658 and vvt
dropping vvt off is loss of spool/torque onset. A sacrifice I would not be making on my own. I would get the correct cams

check squirter clearance.. rarely see JE or others provide enough to not hit them. (allow for rock on bdc)

 

[Warsuperior]

Im going to check it but rosten performance says its fine, since its their design that piston. Best flame travel and has enough room for my Cams and vvt but we will know it for sure when I start assembly thank you for tips! The oil squirt checl is on my to do list Also
1400cc injectors would be enough for 700hp on e85

 

[Rainbird]

Not sure how 1400cc injectors tend to perform at very low duty cycles - would it be wise to start thinking about a second bank of injectors to make tuning the full range?

 

[badger5]

Im going to check it but rosten performance says its fine, since its their design that piston. Best flame travel and has enough room for my Cams and vvt but we will know it for sure when I start assembly thank you for tips! The oil squirt checl is on my to do list Also
1400cc injectors would be enough for 700hp on e85

I suspect not. 2200cc more like

 

[badger5]

Not sure how 1400cc injectors tend to perform at very low duty cycles - would it be wise to start thinking about a second bank of injectors to make tuning the full range?

badgerwagen will be using its existing 8 injectors on iecu at some point. because it can, not because I need them unless stumble upon an endless supply of E85 to run on

 

[Warsuperior]

I suspect not. 2200cc more like

Well my figure was from calculator and what I have been reading on similiar setups. With gasoline the calcutor been accurate, dont know about E85
There was 2500cc injectors for sale moment ago Maybe invest those

 

[Warsuperior]

since here are lots of user, is fluiddamber worth investing? I have now DMF with 4 paddle sachs race engineer and I was thinking of continue it usage until its done.

 

[Warsuperior]

oh and I mean crank hp, not wheel hp when Im talking. so no 700hp wheels

 

[Warsuperior]

I suspect not. 2200cc more like

You were close, 2000cc should be approx enough if 80% open time
here is some injectors ( i know not all suite, this is just general suggestion) with specs
700hp crank
E85
0,8 or 80%
3bar fuel pressure

What else kind of injector fits to S3 intake than the long tip one?

2000cc injector start to sound bit harsh to control

 

[Warsuperior]

I think I stick to 600hp gasoline and go buy parts regarding that and still, the car might not even produce that lot

 

[Warsuperior]

Anyone installed walpro intank pumps on S3? how they work? some say they "drink air" in certain situations and they are not straight fit to the fuel pump cage? I found walpro hellcat pump which deliver 525lph

 

[badger5]

Best solution, imho, in tank DW65, feeding swirl pot, bosch 044(x2) feeding off that into -6 line to front and back
E85 fuel demand way higher than gasolene... plan accordingly

 

[JonnyDerv]

DW65 is a very highly rated in tank pump. As above, DW65 for in tank and Bosch 044 for inline. Genuine ones too.