Build: S3 Hybrid build thread

[baliszoft]

What is your engine code?

 

[tomsko]

What is your engine code?

It's APX from TT. Small port non VVT head. But there is not much of the engine left because it has the crank from S3, forged rods and forged 1mm oversize pistons.

 

[baliszoft]

I would upgrade from narrowband lambda to wideband and use a wideband ME7.5 ECU instead. VEMS is not the best choice for these cars, since its drive-by-wire throttle support is not good at all. Your car will also need some CAN messages from the original ECU for the ABS and Haldex to work properly.

 

[tomsko]

I would upgrade from narrowband lambda to wideband and use a wideband ME7.5 ECU instead. VEMS is not the best choice for these cars, since its drive-by-wire throttle support is not good at all. Your car will also need some CAN messages from the original ECU for the ABS and Haldex to work properly.

Great, this is a good tip. Thanks.

Will I be able to run water/meth or E85 on ME7.5? What about NOS?

 

[Bluepower]

Tomsko, where are you from? and are you on FB?

 

[tomsko]

Tomsko, where are you from? and are you on FB?

I'm from Latvia. And yes I have FB

 

[Bluepower]

Search on FB for the Ignitron ecu Users group

 

[tomsko]

Search on FB for the Ignitron ecu Users group

Ok! I will try to find someone to tune Ignitron nearby

 

[baliszoft]

Can be remotely tuned. Takes some time but can be done.

 

[Stuart B]

Badger5 ATE380 hybrid comes with a V2.2 TIP you can't fit your V3 onto the compressor housing as the billet from the v2.2 is part of the turbo.

 

[tomsko]

Badger5 ATE380 hybrid comes with a V2.2 TIP you can't fit your V3 onto the compressor housing as the billet from the v2.2 is part of the turbo.

I see, Badger can you confirm this?
Btw I didn’t plan to use V3. I planned to use the regular non-oversized size silicon TIP.

What are the most common brake upgrades and suspension upgrades done to S3 s? I’m looking for something cost efficent as I know brake system can go very expensive.

I talked with baliszoft (or was it Bluepower?) about the Ignitron ECU and this seems like a must if I decide to go with anything bigger than K04-380. But for just the k04-380 it seems a bit overkill. Still I have time to consider this. If I stay at K04-380 I believe standard ME7.5 ECu with wideband lambda conversion would fit just fine. As long as I don’t start adding E85 with flexfuel and / or meth.

Speaking of wideband lambda, I see conversion kits one eBay for 300$. Is that cost effective? Or the work involved is much easier than 300$ worth? (Excluding the price of wideband lambda supporting ECU itself). Would appriciate a link to some walkthrough of this conversion. EDIT - my mechanic say I already have the wideband lambda..?!

 

[badger5]

K04-380 with TIP does not fit lhd cars...
no room because of brake master cylinder/servo etc.

 

[baliszoft]

You were chatting with me on messenger. The APX TT engine uses narrowband lambda by default. What is the model year and engine code of your car?

 

[tomsko]

You were chatting with me on messenger. The APX TT engine uses narrowband lambda by default. What is the model year and engine code of your car?

I'm pretty sure my car is a frankenstein all the way so it's no point checking just the old engine code, which I don't know honestly. But the car is S3 from 1999 with 20mm piston pin and non VVT head

 

[tomsko]

K04-380 with TIP does not fit lhd cars...
no room because of brake master cylinder/servo etc.

So will a different TIP physically fit on the compressor part of turbo or will I have to manufacture a custom solution?

 

[baliszoft]

I'm pretty sure my car is a frankenstein all the way so it's no point checking just the old engine code, which I don't know honestly.

OK, i see. You need to check if it is wideband or not then. 5wires going to the pre cat sensor is wideband, 4 is narrowband. 99 S3s were equipped with APY 210hp engines, which use narrowband lambda by default.

 

[tomsko]

OK, i see. You need to check if it is wideband or not then. 5wires going to the pre cat sensor is wideband, 4 is narrowband. 99 S3s were equipped with APY 210hp engines, which use narrowband lambda by default.

It's 4 wires, so narrowband. I'm looking into the wideband conversion and it seems like a lot of headache..

 

[baliszoft]

You only need 2 additional wires (wired in to the ECU) and a different connector (which can be sourced on ebay) + a wideband lambda of course.

 

[tomsko]

You only need 2 additional wires (wired in to the ECU) and a different connector (which can be sourced on ebay) + a wideband lambda of course.

I see. I saw some people adding resistors to fake an optimal VVT and EGT signal, since most wideband ECUs have them. I don't. This made it look too difficult. But to my understanding not faking the signal will anyway result in just an error code anyway, I can live with that.

Are both wideband and narrowband closed loop?

 

[<tuffty/>]

If you plan to use the wideband map from an K04 turbo'd S3/TT you will need to code EGT out of the map... you can't use a resistor... or just wire the EGT in as its used as part of fuelling and protection... VVT helps spool if used...

You use a map from an AUM which is wideband with VVT but doesn't have EGT... you will then need to scale the MAF sensor to suite the larger S3 one and you will need to swap the MAF sensor to the wideband version as they differ between non-wideband and wideband setups

<tuffty/>

 

[<tuffty/>]

Are both wideband and narrowband closed loop?

narrowband is closed loop on idle/cruise but not WOT like wideband is...

<tuffty/>

 

[tomsko]

If you plan to use the wideband map from an K04 turbo'd S3/TT you will need to code EGT out of the map... you can't use a resistor... or just wire the EGT in as its used as part of fuelling and protection... VVT helps spool if used...

You use a map from an AUM which is wideband with VVT but doesn't have EGT... you will then need to scale the MAF sensor to suite the larger S3 one and you will need to swap the MAF sensor to the wideband version as they differ between non-wideband and wideband setups

<tuffty/>

Thanks. Coding out EGT from S3/TT map sounds easier

narrowband is closed loop on idle/cruise but not WOT like wideband is...

<tuffty/>

So after all it might have been my tuner who blew up the engine thinking it's wideband and always closed loop..?!

 

[<tuffty/>]

I see. Coding out EGT from S3/TT map sounds easier

Personally I'd fit the sensor... K04's run hot and having the extra protection is a nice thing to have

So after all it might have been my tuner who blew up the engine thinking it's wideband and always closed loop..?!

In WOT narrowband ECU's are blind to AFR so entirely possible to run lean assuming he didn't have a wideband lambda fitted while tuning

<tuffty/>

 

[tomsko]

Personally I'd fit the sensor... K04's run hot and having the extra protection is a nice thing to have
<tuffty/>

Ok. I put it in downpipe not exhaust manifold I assume.

I think I will replace the whole engine wiring harness as well from the donor that I get my ECU from. Just because I don't know the history of the car and the wires could easily been altered with...
So my question is - what donor car should I get the ECU and wiring harness from? Any from wideband lambda cars will work or am I looking at more narrow list. What about RHD cars? (I have LHD)

 

[<tuffty/>]

EGT probe fits in the back of the turbo hotside on the later K04... if you haven't got provision then the DP will be fine.... just make sure its as close to the turbine as is practical and make sure the relevant EGT protection temp maps are altered for the cooler EGT's

<tuffty/>

 

[badger5]

So will a different TIP physically fit on the compressor part of turbo or will I have to manufacture a custom solution?

if you have the k04-380 with the billet built into it, it will not fit lhd

 

[tomsko]

So I got in touch with a junkyard, they have two ME7.5 ECUs from 1.8T.
First one is 06A906032AR from Golf 4 150HP 1998-2001. Could be aither of these engines - AGU/ARZ/ARX/AUM. I think it's ARZ as listed here - https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/ecu-numbers.22311/. .It supposedly has wideband lambda. While in other forums people say it's ME7 and narrowband..
The other ECU is 06A906032HA from Sharan 150HP 1997–2000. Engine code AJH.
I won't be able to get the wire harness as junkyard guys just cut the wires

Can anyone confirm if either of these ECUs will do?

 

[Stuart B]

someone on here manged to get a Passat ECU working for an S3, maybe try and find that thread.

are you going to update them to immo defeated?

 

[tomsko]

someone on here manged to get a Passat ECU working for an S3, maybe try and find that thread.

are you going to update them to immo defeated?

I see. So it's not just a swap in-out and rewrite the software job.
Then I prefer to find a better fit.

So to clarify, perfectly I should find an ECU from BAM engine and no other?

 

[badger5]

find ecu from aum engine golf or auq leon etc... wideband

 

[tomsko]

Found another one. This is from S3 AMK engine. Code is 8N0906018J.
After some digging I found out that AMK engines could and could not have wideband lambda and/or EGT sensor. I asked the seller and he says this car has both EGT and 5 wire lambda.

Is this a good fit?

 

[<tuffty/>]

AMK is wideband with EGT and vvt

<tuffty/>

 

[tomsko]

So I went ahead and bought the AMK ECU. Should arrive today or tomorrow.
I discussed the EGT sensor with my mechanic and he recommends me to put it in the exhaust manifold, not in downpipe as others have recommended. Since I would sooner or later replace the manifold with the K04-380 kit, downpipe makes more sense to me, despite less precise mesurements. Plus fitting the EGT sensor in exhaust manifold would not allow me to see if the turbo itself is running too hot! Can anyone confirm this? What would be better spot for the EGT?

And also, what EGT sensor do you guys recommend? OEM or some aftermarket.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Put EGT either in the factory position in the hotside assuming you have a hotside that can do this (the AET K04-380 should have the EGT bung ready) or the downpipe...

Adding it to the manifold is not very practical as you will need special weld rod to weld a boss in... the collector area is quite small and gets very hot so why add a potential point of failure...

You can tweak the EGT temperature setting in the map depending on where the probe is anyway...

<tuffty/>

 

[tomsko]

Put EGT either in the factory position in the hotside assuming you have a hotside that can do this (the AET K04-380 should have the EGT bung ready) or the downpipe...

Adding it to the manifold is not very practical as you will need special weld rod to weld a boss in... the collector area is quite small and gets very hot so why add a potential point of failure...

You can tweak the EGT temperature setting in the map depending on where the probe is anyway...

<tuffty/>

my current hybrid turbo does not have spot for the EGT sensor. Ok, so downpipe it is.

Can you recommend what EGT sensor to get exactly? Thanks.

 

[<tuffty/>]

The OE one from an S3 (AMK/BAM), TT (BAM) or LCR (AMK/BAM)

<tuffty/>

 

[Stuart B]

hey are pretty pricey new, so you may want to think about a 2nd hand one to test the build before committing to a bundle of cash I repaired mine, but will need to change I expect at some point.

 

[tomsko]

Still waiting on the block to be bored for new forged pistons. Hopefully by end of February car is done.
While we wait, I wanted to show off something more interesting. My other project. We are building V12 Mercedes engine for a track car (same one used in Pagani Zondas). Aiming for 600 hp at the crank naturally aspirated

 

[tomsko]

Finally putting everything together

 

[tomsko]

The forged bottom end