Tyre Issue?

[Boosted_Six]

Its pretty normal for the Geo to be out on cars from the factory, if its never been aligned dont be surprised if you see funny tyre wear!

If the Geo is in fact correct then the brand of tyres isn't always the culprit, its more appropriate to consider the sidewall load rating, tyre pressure and condition of the suspension bushes etc

 

[Daggerit]

I've just had mu summer tyres taken off and had my winters put on, the tyre fitter showed me the issue below and this thread instantly came to mind...

Untitled by Matt Smith, on Flickr

Untitled by Matt Smith, on Flickr

Could this be a fault with the Hankooks...

Changed mine over for winters today and realised that the upper link seems to be fairly close to the tyre, I wonder if that’s what is causing this issue?


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[Spearo]

Swapped summers to winters this week too and I’ve got similar wear on the drivers rear tyre ! Which wheel are people spotting this problem ? Has anyone with this wear been for a 4 wheel alignment and found the problem?

 

[Daggerit]

I'll check all of mine when I get home and see if any have it, I only looked at the front that I took off because I thought the upper links looked potentially close...

I don't know if I'm a good example though, as I have spacers and lowering springs on my car and as a result has also been for a 4 wheel alignment. I'll let you guys know though.

 

[f1nny]

It seems to me the tyre issues on this thread have all happened to Quattro. Could be a design flaw with it. Unless it’s happening to non Quattro owners but my is fine so far after 7000 miles.

 

[Daggerit]

Mine is a Quattro so I'll check all the tyres and see if there's anything odd

 

[cuke2u]

Mine are more worn of the inside that the outer after 11500. Looking at replacing them over the Christmas hols...

 

[BigAardvaark]

I did look around to see if I could spot something that might be catching but nothing obvious. I remain convinced this isn't alignment, something's catching somewhere, it's too extreme an angle, it's as if the wheel is running with a 45 degree camber?

 

[Daggerit]

If you're talking about wear across the width of the tyre, toe can have a massive effect on this and cause the inside/outside to wear in the angled effect. The one with the shoulder damaged so badly is rubbing I'd say, I can't think of any alignment issues that could possibly cause a groove!

 

[Spearo]

So this is what I found when I looked closer !

 

[Daggerit]

So this is what I found when I looked closer !

Jesus! I think that would be a warranty claim for all new tyres!

Mine seem to be fine but I’m running spacers and have had an alignment.

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[f1nny]

There definitely seems to be a design problem here. There’s too many people with the exact same tyre wear for it to be an alignment problem. It looks like there’s a groove being created that’s then expose the cords.

It might be a case that the tyre rubs on a suspension component when going over a speed bump.

To me this is a really bad safety issue. A blowout at high speed or even low speed could end up disastrous.

The more people report this to Audi, the more likely they’ll look into it.

 

[Daggerit]

There definitely seems to be a design problem here. There’s too many people with the exact same tyre wear for it to be an alignment problem. It looks like there’s a groove being created that’s then expose the cords.

It might be a case that the tyre rubs on a suspension component when going over a speed bump.

To me this is a really bad safety issue. A blowout at high speed or even low speed could end up disastrous.

The more people report this to Audi, the more likely they’ll look into it.

Agreed, it’s definitely something rubbing.

Is it the front or backs that have the groove on them? I initially thought the front upper link might be the culprit but have since thought about it more and realised that the wheel and that part should move together so won’t touch. I didn’t look at the rear though?

EDIT: I'll just add that the tyre pictures above are at 16k miles but using winters Nov/Dec until March, so they're doing alright mileage wise!

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[f1nny]

Agreed, it’s definitely something rubbing.

Is it the front or backs that have the groove on them? I initially thought the front upper link might be the culprit but have since thought about it more and realised that the wheel and that part should move together so won’t touch. I didn’t look at the rear though?

EDIT: I'll just add that the tyre pictures above are at 16k miles but using winters Nov/Dec until March, so they're doing alright mileage wise!

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Very interesting that you have spacers and very minimal, if any rubbing at all.

I’m currently not near my car so can’t have a look but looking at some documents I have on my iPad (excuse the Russian language I got it from VWTS.RU).

One of the picture shows the upper links in the exact same place as the tyre wear. This could just be parallax error making it look like it’s on that spot.

However I’d check suspension components for sign of abrasions like rubber or shine marks.

The tyre wear doesn’t seem flat enough to be an alignment issue. It’s not uniform enough.

I’m no mechanic but I’m just trying to throw some ideas out there by thinking about it logically with the turning radius of the wheel. It might even be rubbing against the body/trim of the car. However that should have obvious abrasion marks.

 

[cuke2u]

There definitely seems to be a design problem here. There’s too many people with the exact same tyre wear for it to be an alignment problem. It looks like there’s a groove being created that’s then expose the cords.

It might be a case that the tyre rubs on a suspension component when going over a speed bump.

To me this is a really bad safety issue. A blowout at high speed or even low speed could end up disastrous.

The more people report this to Audi, the more likely they’ll look into it.

I disagree, these cars are tested to destruction over thousands of miles over different road conditions and types. If it was a case this was a design issue then forums would be lit up with this, yet there is only a small handful in this particular one thread. I have not seen any in other A4 B9 forums across the world.
This isn't saying there could not be a manufacturing issue, however I would not be so hasty in jumping to a conclusion.

 

[Daggerit]

Very interesting that you have spacers and very minimal, if any rubbing at all.

I’m currently not near my car so can’t have a look but looking at some documents I have on my iPad (excuse the Russian language I got it from VWTS.RU).

One of the picture shows the upper links in the exact same place as the tyre wear. This could just be parallax error making it look like it’s on that spot.

However I’d check suspension components for sign of abrasions like rubber or shine marks.

The tyre wear doesn’t seem flat enough to be an alignment issue. It’s not uniform enough.

I’m no mechanic but I’m just trying to throw some ideas out there by thinking about it logically with the turning radius of the wheel. It might even be rubbing against the body/trim of the car. However that should have obvious abrasion marks.

View attachment 171118
View attachment 171119

Yeah, that’s what I was getting at. But because that upper link is part of the hub assembly, the tyre should never move closer/further away from it? Do you have the same sort of diagrams for the rear?


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[f1nny]

I disagree, these cars are tested to destruction over thousands of miles over different road conditions and types. If it was a case this was a design issue then forums would be lit up with this, yet there is only a small handful in this particular one thread. I have not seen any in other A4 B9 forums across the world.
This isn't saying there could not be a manufacturing issue, I would not be so hasty in jumping to a conclusion.

They maybe tested to destruction over thousands of miles, yet manufactures have recalls and TSB. No amount of testing can account for every scenario in day to day driving. Which over time can/could lead to the exposure of a design flaw or manufacturing defect.

There’s loads of examples on this forum but one from my personal experience is when I owned my first A1 is 2012. I remember when the tailgate rubbed against the body of the car resulting in it rubbing through the paint and exposing the metal of the body. Audi’s solution, a clear plastic sticker.

Regardless if it was a manufacturing defect or design flaw. How often do people check the inner radius of their tyre and could check it without getting in on a ramp or getting on the back and looking under the vehicle. Most just check the thread depth and if low enough replace it. Most wouldn’t even join a forum just to say their tyre is rubbing. They’d just get it replaced.

This issue is only coming to light because people are changing from summer to winter tyres on the forum. As this thread goes on the more people are finding this issue.

I agree I’m quick to jump the gun and say design flaw. However the tyre wear is very very adnormal, especially exposure the cords. Some of the tyres with this issue have plenty of tread left which is evenly worn. Also it’s happening across a wide range of tyre brands.

 

[f1nny]

Yeah, that’s what I was getting at. But because that upper link is part of the hub assembly, the tyre should never move closer/further away from it? Do you have the same sort of diagrams for the rear?


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[Daggerit]

So this is what I found when I looked closer !

Do you carry a lot on a regular basis, or is your car generally fairly empty? Just wondering if a prolonged compression of the front/rear might add to this.

 

[Spearo]

The car is always is “van spec “ but most of the miles I’ve done are empty or unloaded!
Looked underneath just now - there is nothing scrubbing or even possible to cause the damage. On the front, the upper suspension components move with the wheel so the distance between tyre and suspension is maintained.
My tyres have done 21k and apart from this ridge - wear is even across all parts of the tyre ....although now they’re down to legal minimum!

Looking on tbe Web it seems that there are lots of cars with similar issues not just Audi .... think it must just be alignment- I’ll get it checked later this week !

 

[Daggerit]

Really strange then. I just can't get my head around how a channel like that could be formed from bad geometry, especially if wear is consistent over the rest of the tyre? But that doesn't mean it can't happen, just that I don't understand it. Haha. You'll have to let us know what happens with the alignment.

 

[cuke2u]

On the rear tyre as well? Does seem very strange. I would take the tyre to an expert and get their opinion..

 

[cuke2u]

They maybe tested to destruction over thousands of miles, yet manufactures have recalls and TSB. No amount of testing can account for every scenario in day to day driving. Which over time can/could lead to the exposure of a design flaw or manufacturing defect.

There’s loads of examples on this forum but one from my personal experience is when I owned my first A1 is 2012. I remember when the tailgate rubbed against the body of the car resulting in it rubbing through the paint and exposing the metal of the body. Audi’s solution, a clear plastic sticker.

Regardless if it was a manufacturing defect or design flaw. How often do people check the inner radius of their tyre and could check it without getting in on a ramp or getting on the back and looking under the vehicle. Most just check the thread depth and if low enough replace it. Most wouldn’t even join a forum just to say their tyre is rubbing. They’d just get it replaced.

This issue is only coming to light because people are changing from summer to winter tyres on the forum. As this thread goes on the more people are finding this issue.

I agree I’m quick to jump the gun and say design flaw. However the tyre wear is very very adnormal, especially exposure the cords. Some of the tyres with this issue have plenty of tread left which is evenly worn. Also it’s happening across a wide range of tyre brands.

As stated, only on this thread with a small handful of owners and, what, a couple of makes of tyres? The tyres themselves are randomly front or rear. We also need keep to this model, whatever happened in the past with any other car is not relevant to what 'might' be happening here. Plus, to actually cut the cord, and as no-one can see anything touching the tyres themselves, suggests something else is happening and there is no evidence to suggest it is a design flaw.
There is a danger that scaremongering of any kind could make owners worried unnecessarily.
I will admit that I am no tyre expert but in this case, before jumping to any conclusions, I would find one before I did anything...

 

[f1nny]

Majority of this thread is about the fronts, maybe the odd rear.

As for mentioning another model ( I assume you mean my previous A1). I mentioned it as an example of how designs flaws can get missed during this “test to destruction over thousands of miles” you mentioned. As I’m sure every Audi model is tested just as vigorously. So it is relevant to that part of your comment.

Ok should we start saying “All B9 owners the below image from the start of the thread is nothing to worry about. Apparently it would be Scaremongering to think otherwise”

Me suggesting there’s a design flaw is hardly scaremongering. The tyre being exposed to the cords certainly is, regardless of what’s causing it. And a blow out with a tyre like that could happen. Which to me is a safety issue.

All I’ve said is there “seems” to be an design flaw. As this is happening on vehicles that have not long had a wheel alignment. And it doesn’t appear to be common to one brand of tyre. Also most of the owners on this thread are Quattro owners.

End of the day something is a miss and as others have mentioned they’ve had wheel alignments carried out and have still got the issue. I find hard to believe a tyre could possible wear at that particular spot due to wheel alignment issues.

Anyway I’m not getting into a debate about Polictal Correctness. The worlds gone mad enough with it. I’ve gave me view on it. This is a forum after all. I’ve hardly been scaremongering. The tyre wear itself should be scary enough.

 

[WesT-gefül]

That’s insane. Feel for you on this experience. You shouldn’t expect this.

 

[Daggerit]

f1nny, it looks to me like the tyre in the photo you just re-posted is a camber/toe issue. The rubber appears to have been torn away on the inside which to me points towards geometry, rather than the other one in this thread that looks like it's rubbing on something. Interesting there's different issues across the same model.

 

[BigAardvaark]

I'd say they're both the same just at different stages

 

[Daggerit]

You think so? Maybe I just can't see it in that photo but it just didn't look like it had the same channel as the previous one and looked more like it had been smudged off the tyre instead. Regardless, I think you're due some answers!

 

[f1nny]

f1nny, it looks to me like the tyre in the photo you just re-posted is a camber/toe issue. The rubber appears to have been torn away on the inside which to me points towards geometry, rather than the other one in this thread that looks like it's rubbing on something. Interesting there's different issues across the same model.

That photo is just from the start of this thread. I think that’s the most extreme we’ve seen. Later on in the thread seems to be the start on the running like @BigAardvaark days.

I’m currently at centre parcs but i’ve Just trekked back to the car to get some photos of mine.

Mine have done 7000 miles and have no signs of rubbing. Mines non-Quattro though. Not sure if the set up is different but I imagine it is. Not sure if that is even related but I just noticed the guys with the issue all seem to be Quattro.

Anyways I hope you guys get to the bottom of it. Something is right as we’ve all gathered.

 

[Daggerit]

That photo is just from the start of this thread. I think that’s the most extreme we’ve seen. Later on in the thread seems to be the start on the running like @BigAardvaark days.

I’m currently at centre parcs but i’ve Just trekked back to the car to get some photos of mine.

Mine have done 7000 miles and have no signs of rubbing. Mines non-Quattro though. Not sure if the set up is different but I imagine it is. Not sure if that is even related but I just noticed the guys with the issue all seem to be Quattro.

Anyways I hope you guys get to the bottom of it. Something is right as we’ve all gathered.

View attachment 171131
View attachment 171132
View attachment 171133

Yeah, yours looks much like mine and I even have a few thousand more miles on them than you. Mine is also a Quattro so I don't know what the common factor is to be honest.

 

[Spearo]

So, I’m sure it’s written somewhere but.... I’ll ask anyway, does someone have the correct alignment specs for a b9 S4 avant ? And does anyone know what is actually adjustable front and rear ?

 

[f1nny]

Yeah, yours looks much like mine and I even have a few thousand more miles on them than you. Mine is also a Quattro so I don't know what the common factor is to be honest.

Your spacers might just be offsetting your wheels enough not to rub.

We’ll just have to wait and see if anyone else has the issue the more miles they put on their first set of tyres, along with the people with this issue second set of tyres.

 

[Daggerit]

Your spacers might just be offsetting your wheels enough not to rub.

We’ll just have to wait and see if anyone else has the issue the more miles they put on their first set of tyres, along with the people with this issue second set of tyres.

I agree, so it may not be the best comparison for that. Might take a look when I put them back on to see if there’s a likely offending piece of kit for rubbing. If I remember and Audi hasn’t yet explained. Haha.


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[f1nny]

I agree, so it may not be the best comparison for that. Might take a look when I put them back on to see if there’s a likely offending piece of kit for rubbing. If I remember and Audi hasn’t yet explained. Haha.


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Please do. Would be interesting to know if it does start doing it. If it does then you could always sell the “fix” to Audi that spacers are the answer haha

 

[cuke2u]

I doubt it. If you wish to follow a chain of thought that some 'design' issue has somehow crept in when there are owners on other forums throughout the world that have covered tens of thousands of miles, if not more, without any tyre issues then that is your perogative. However as much you seem to wish to present this argument you have only this single thread and a small handful of owners to base it on. Which is rather blinkered to say the least.

Where is there any evidence outside this thread, because I have seen none.

Until these cars and tyres are examined by a proper engineer there is only anacdotal evidence that a 'design' theory would be correct.
Owners of any cars would then need to make a case using this evidence if it was supported by an experts advice. Other than this is just 'pub talk'...

 

[f1nny]

You seem to be hung up on the fact that if it’s not reported by owners on another forum “around the world” that there’s no issue. These problems sometimes only start off with a few complaints and manifest.

Like I said before not everyone comes on a forum to report a problem with a tyre having unusual tyre wear. They just get the tyres replaced and an alignment done. The guys who are more likely to see this are the ones who maybe do a lot of miles a year. Not the people who do very few miles a year.

I don’t wish to follow anything. That’s just my opinion on it by applying some logic to the fact it’s very very unusual tyre wear, were most of the remaining tread is worn evenly. Even extreme Negative Camber or Toe Out should wear/scrub the tyre more towards to outer tread from the inner, even if only centimetres.

There is obviously an underlying issue here and I’ve openly said from my point of view and there “seems” to be an design issue. As people have pointed out they’ve had a wheel alignment done.

Maybe there is and maybe there isn’t. However the photos show there seems to be one.

As for an argument. I don’t see one. All I’ve been doing is giving my thought on this from a my technical point of view by trying to think how these could be happening. Which is what a lot of guys of the forum try to do when someone has an issue.

No one pretends to be an expert on this forum but there is a lot of people with technical backgrounds and knowledge Who try to give advice no matter what the form.

I don’t come on the forum often to comment but when I do it’s normally to give my advice and thought on what an issue could be, or I ask for advice myself. I don’t browse the this forum and others looking for something to comment on, or say you shouldn’t be saying this or that.

Anyway as an A4 owner seeing the initial photo on this thread and later ones, it is quite concerning that something is happening to tyres where the cords are being exposed. I’m sure most A4 owners would find it concerning. And I wouldn’t say it’s scaremongering to say it’s definitely a safety issue for tyre to end up like that.

Only time will tell what the issue is and I hope people get it sorted.

 

[Daggerit]

You seem to be hung up on the fact that if it’s not reported by owners on another forum “around the world” that there’s no issue. These problems sometimes only start off with a few complaints and manifest.

Like I said before not everyone comes on a forum to report a problem with a tyre having unusual tyre wear. They just get the tyres replaced and an alignment done. The guys who are more likely to see this are the ones who maybe do a lot of miles a year. Not the people who do very few miles a year.

I don’t wish to follow anything. That’s just my opinion on it by applying some logic to the fact it’s very very unusual tyre wear, were most of the remaining tread is worn evenly. Even extreme Negative Camber or Toe Out should wear/scrub the tyre more towards to outer tread from the inner, even if only centimetres.

There is obviously an underlying issue here and I’ve openly said from my point of view and there “seems” to be an design issue. As people have pointed out they’ve had a wheel alignment done.

Maybe there is and maybe there isn’t. However the photos show there seems to be one.

As for an argument. I don’t see one. All I’ve been doing is giving my thought on this from a my technical point of view by trying to think how these could be happening. Which is what a lot of guys of the forum try to do when someone has an issue.

No one pretends to be an expert on this forum but there is a lot of people with technical backgrounds and knowledge Who try to give advice no matter what the form.

I don’t come on the forum often to comment but when I do it’s normally to give my advice and thought on what an issue could be, or I ask for advice myself. I don’t browse the this forum and others looking for something to comment on, or say you shouldn’t be saying this or that.

Anyway as an A4 owner seeing the initial photo on this thread and later ones, it is quite concerning that something is happening to tyres where the cords are being exposed. I’m sure most A4 owners would find it concerning. And I wouldn’t say it’s scaremongering to say it’s definitely a safety issue for tyre to end up like that.

Only time will tell what the issue is and I hope people get it sorted.

Indeed, as a mechanical engineer with some experience in race car suspension geometry, I’m really curious about what the issue could be from that standpoint. Genuinely interested because it could be extremely dangerous!


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[cuke2u]

You seem to be hung up on the fact that if it’s not reported by owners on another forum “around the world” that there’s no issue. These problems sometimes only start off with a few complaints and manifest.

Like I said before not everyone comes on a forum to report a problem with a tyre having unusual tyre wear. They just get the tyres replaced and an alignment done. The guys who are more likely to see this are the ones who maybe do a lot of miles a year. Not the people who do very few miles a year.

I don’t wish to follow anything. That’s just my opinion on it by applying some logic to the fact it’s very very unusual tyre wear, were most of the remaining tread is worn evenly. Even extreme Negative Camber or Toe Out should wear/scrub the tyre more towards to outer tread from the inner, even if only centimetres.

There is obviously an underlying issue here and I’ve openly said from my point of view and there “seems” to be an design issue. As people have pointed out they’ve had a wheel alignment done.

Maybe there is and maybe there isn’t. However the photos show there seems to be one.

As for an argument. I don’t see one. All I’ve been doing is giving my thought on this from a my technical point of view by trying to think how these could be happening. Which is what a lot of guys of the forum try to do when someone has an issue.

No one pretends to be an expert on this forum but there is a lot of people with technical backgrounds and knowledge Who try to give advice no matter what the form.

I don’t come on the forum often to comment but when I do it’s normally to give my advice and thought on what an issue could be, or I ask for advice myself. I don’t browse the this forum and others looking for something to comment on, or say you shouldn’t be saying this or that.

Anyway as an A4 owner seeing the initial photo on this thread and later ones, it is quite concerning that something is happening to tyres where the cords are being exposed. I’m sure most A4 owners would find it concerning. And I wouldn’t say it’s scaremongering to say it’s definitely a safety issue for tyre to end up like that.

Only time will tell what the issue is and I hope people get it sorted.

Does your B9 A4 suffer from this issue? Yes unless a proper and objective assessment is performed by an expert I think 'opinions' should not be expressed. As for being hung up on this not being reported by other forums, I will treat that with the contempt it deserves as there are hundreds of owners out there, compared to the handful here, that have no issues who have driven thousands of miles. The forums would be buzzing and alive with this if it was a 'design' issue, or are you ignoring this fact as well? Seeing as all our cars come out of the same factory there cannot be any regional or build differences as well.
By playing devils advocate all you are doing is unnecessarily creating a falsehood without any proven facts.
Can I ask again, does your B9 A4 have this issue?

 

[cuke2u]

Indeed, as a mechanical engineer with some experience in race car suspension geometry, I’m really curious about what the issue could be from that standpoint. Genuinely interested because it could be extremely dangerous!


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Quite, it needs someone with knowledge, skills and objectivity, without jumping to conclusions, to give a thorough objective examination into what might have happened. The few owners that have had this abnormality occur should have the car and its tyres examined to establish if there is anything contributing towards this by an Audi master technician at the very least. I would go so far, as to the seriousness of the risk, to contact AudiUK directly to demand this..

 

[f1nny]

Does your B9 A4 suffer from this issue? Yes unless a proper and objective assessment is performed by an expert I think 'opinions' should not be expressed. As for being hung up on this not being reported by other forums, I will treat that with the contempt it deserves as there are hundreds of owners out there, compared to the handful here, that have no issues who have driven thousands of miles. Or are you ignoring this fact as well?
By playing devils advocate all you are doing is unnecessarily creating a falsehood without any proven facts.
Can I ask again, does your B9 A4 have this issue?

No mines does not have this issue, I’ll say AGAIN my vehicle does not have this issue.

Has your car had this issue ?

Are you an tyre expert ? Wait a min you said you’re not. So how come to have commented on the thread stating you disagree if your not an tyre expert. Or expert in Audi’s testing to destruction procedures.

Likewise on the WLTP thread. Are you an expert on emissions? If not you can’t give an opinion.

As per your comment.

“Unless a proper assessment has been carried out by an expert, opinions shouldn’t be expressed”

Well that’s every forum doomed then.

So basically everyone one every forum should stop posting, as unless they’re an expert they shouldn’t have a opinion.

Forums may as well shut down now as people give their opinions to try help others get to the bottom of faults or problems with their cars. None of which are experts.

Not once have I said for a fact it’s a design flaw or said “yep it’s definitely a design issue, take it to Audi”. I said it seems to be as wheel alignment shouldn’t cause this. What I have stated is a fact is that it’s a safety issue.

People has issues with their cars. Just because a forum isn’t buzzing with people complaining about it doesn’t mean their can’t be an issue.
All that’s been stated from myself is that the wear looks similar from all owners that have reported it and that it doesn’t seem to be wheel alignment related. I’ve also pointed out that the people on this thread all seem to have Quattro.

I’ve gave an opinion that their seems to be a design flaw that could be making the tyre rub on a suspension comment. The tyre itself is the biggest cause for concern.

Anyway I’m going to enjoy rest of my holiday. I’ll leave you to comment on threads and correct people. Makesure your an expert on that thread though before you have an opinion