TMU's Glacier White B8.5 S4 - MRC Stage 2

[V6_Man]

So here's my dipstick and MMI reading at 28,246 miles.
View attachment 168741

View attachment 168742

It had an oil change at 25,866 miles, so has used no oil in almost 2,500 miles

Oh, and while I'm at it, here's my coolant reservoir, about an hour after switching the engine off after about 90 minutes of running.

View attachment 168743

Thanks once again Jeff, I really appreciate you taking the time and doing it for us. This is why I love the forum. I will check the oil levels tonight after work and report back


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[V6_Man]

@Tashfeen Thinking about it, my last two Audi's have needed 0.5-0.75l of oil mid way between oil changes (I go on the service life changes rather than at a particular number of miles, but I do 12k/year. From memory, my partner's car (3l diesel Touareg) also needs a topup of about the same midway between oil changes.

Cheers @arad85. I agree as I have always topped up oil on my previous Audis that I had but it used be around 7k-ish mark. I will take the readings tonight as well as continue to do so in next few weeks and see how things go. I am also doing 7-10k miles service per year (whichever comes first) so, don't mind topping it up mid-day through.

Luckily PCV is not an expensive repair / upgrade, but I need to find out why has the car started consuming more in the last year or so. I have done only 9k miles in the last 14 months 90% of which were long motorway journeys. The car has been sat most of the times but it should not be the reason for consuming oil all of a sudden.


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[Dippy]

I wish I could help but since my car has no noticeable oil consumption I rarely check it, and most of that time I rely on the MMI - my dipstick remains in my toolbox. My B5 S4 did consume some oil. For most of its life it would survive on an annual oil change, and only towards the end of my ownership (about 80K+ IIRC) did I need to top-up between servicing, similar to Andy's experience (but possibly only 0.5l max for me). IMO if you have dropped one bar on the MMI after 1300 miles then unfortunately its not conclusive. It can sometimes take a while for the oil to settle so it may even get to max. I think you should only worry if you are needing to top up every few months or more often.

However I'd like to read more about your MRC experience - about the "tweaking" of your tune. Is that standard for a service/health check or did you ask for it? Was it a complete dyno check? I'm just wondering if I should take my car back to MRC every few years - I hadn't planned to unless it would be to take my mods further.

 

[V6_Man]

I wish I could help but since my car has no noticeable oil consumption I rarely check it, and most of that time I rely on the MMI - my dipstick remains in my toolbox. My B5 S4 did consume some oil. For most of its life it would survive on an annual oil change, and only towards the end of my ownership (about 80K+ IIRC) did I need to top-up between servicing, similar to Andy's experience (but possibly only 0.5l max for me). IMO if you have dropped one bar on the MMI after 1300 miles then unfortunately its not conclusive. It can sometimes take a while for the oil to settle so it may even get to max. I think you should only worry if you are needing to top up every few months or more often.

I did a 180 mile round trip over the weekend and had been checking the oil levels on a few occasions during my journey and it stayed at Max. It was a 6 mile supermarket run that I did on Sunday and that's where when I checked the oil levels that I came up as low. My initial thoughts were the same but ... Every time something like this comes up, it makes me nervous - like for example the low coolant, which like I mentioned in my other post it is only the second time I have topped it up ... Will keep an eye on both for next few months but it would have been nice to drive the car without worrying about any of these things

However I'd like to read more about your MRC experience - about the "tweaking" of your tune. Is that standard for a service/health check or did you ask for it? Was it a complete dyno check? I'm just wondering if I should take my car back to MRC every few years - I hadn't planned to unless it would be to take my mods further.

It was two dyno runs (see below) I booked in the health check as I wanted peace of mind that everything on the car was running as it should be, it wasn't with the view to extract more from the engine. Tbh, I didn't ask Doug as to why it went up a tad bit, I should've but the oil thing was on the back of my mind ... I cancelled my Friday's appointment with MRC earlier today as Doug is on holidays this week. I want to be able to discuss the oil issue (only if I get asked to top it up again).

Left is current and one on the right is from last year.

 

[V6_Man]

I have also managed to get a quote from MRC for PCV, Thermostat and Waterpump and it isn't that bad. It is with the view that if we end up replacing the PCV I might get all of them changed as supercharger will be coming off anyways.

 

[rum4mo]

The dip stick, after the engine has been warmed up and then stopped for maybe 15 minutes, should show an oil level anywhere on the hatched area, ideally at the half way point. I know that currently my car's oil level is above the top of the hatched area as I only now tend to check it before using it so that means after it has been used for at least a day.

Edit:- another thing with the MMI oil level indictor, unless you are consistent about under what conditions and when you check it, I found that level displayed level wandered up and down without me adding any oil!

 

[rum4mo]

I have also managed to get a quote from MRC for PCV, Thermostat and Waterpump and it isn't that bad. It is with the view that if we end up replacing the PCV I might get all of them changed as supercharger will be coming off anyways.

If the supercharger is coming off, is it worth getting the inlet valves areas checked to see if that car is ready for a walnut shell decoking?

 

[V6_Man]

The dip stick, after the engine has been warmed up and then stopped for maybe 15 minutes, should show an oil level anywhere on the hatched area, ideally at the half way point. I know that currently my car's oil level is above the top of the hatched area as I only now tend to check it before using it so that means after it has been used for at least a day.

Cheers mate. I'll remember that, will check the oil after I have reached my destination tomorrow. Beloe is the dipstick that I have so, hopefully the level should be around or little below Max line

Edit:- another thing with the MMI oil level indictor, unless you are consistent about under what conditions and when you check it, I found that level displayed level wandered up and down without me adding any oil!

Another useful tip. I'll keep that in mind too.


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[V6_Man]

If the supercharger is coming off, is it worth getting the inlet valves areas checked to see if that car is ready for a walnut shell decoking?

Wouldn't it be appropriate if one was getting some sorts of performance issues or you thinking it should be done as the supercharger will be off anyway?

From what I have read as well as discussing it with Doug (I specifically asked him about it when he serviced the gearbox) he doesn't think V6 needs decoking ...


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[rum4mo]

It was only a suggestion, I'm glad that Doug does not find it a regular issue, that is encouraging, it has always worried me, maybe without any reason, but I thought that turbo'd and/or supercharged direct injection did suffer from this though it was not noticed as much as with normally aspirated engines as far as performance is concerned.

Another thing, probably a lot less of an issue for you as your B8.5 should have extra port injectors to help stop this coking up, am I right there?

I do consider that my wife's Polo with 1.2TSI 16V could end up with needed an inlet side decoke as it will be running many more miles than my S4 will.

 

[V6_Man]

Another thing, probably a lot less of an issue for you as your B8.5 should have extra port injectors to help stop this coking up, am I right there?

My understanding is that the extra port injection is available from B8 engines as well (ignore my ignorance if this is not the case), maybe MY10 or MY11 onwards as a result of EU emission thingi (EU6). It was only made available in MY16 onwards in the US.




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[V6_Man]

Forgot to mention that it was available on 2.0l engines from MY11 onwards as well so, it appears it is from 11 onwards rather than MY10...


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[rum4mo]

If manifold or port injection was added, it would only get added when the engine design was revised, so that will mean B8.5 at earliest if even that, though definitely on the B9 3.0T.

My wife's August VW Polo has an engine that appeared in 2014 and it does not have manifold or port injection, that only appeared when the replacement 1.0 engines appeared in 2016/2017.

VW Group, as usual not correcting omissions in design until all the competition had done so.

 

[arad85]

My understanding is that the extra port injection is available from B8 engines as well (ignore my ignorance if this is not the case), maybe MY10 or MY11 onwards as a result of EU emission thingi (EU6). It was only made available in MY16 onwards in the US.

I was told the CREC engine is the only one with extra injectors - making it different to tune - which is why APR wanted my car to play with... No idea if that is true or not, but it was from the guy playing with my engine at the time...

 

[Dippy]

It was two dyno runs (see below) I booked in the health check as I wanted peace of mind that everything on the car was running as it should be, it wasn't with the view to extract more from the engine.

OK, I understand - it was just a health check run on the dyno. Ignore any change in figures - that will just be down to differences on the day. Ambient temperature, tyre tread, fuel octane variations etc. can all contribute.

I carefully compared your dyno graphs to mine and they are very similar. That's what gives me confidence in MRC. OK, so we don't know how accurately their dyno reads, however the consistency between results for different cars on different days show the quality of their work.

My understanding is that the extra port injection is available from B8 engines as well (ignore my ignorance if this is not the case), maybe MY10 or MY11 onwards as a result of EU emission thingi (EU6). It was only made available in MY16 onwards in the US.

Only the CREC engine meets EU6. It's still not clear to me exactly what was done to the fuelling on the CREC. I doubt that it has 12 injectors, just that its 6 injectors are in a different position than the previous engine. However I do agree with @rum4mo that it would be great to see what your valves look like when the charger is off - best of all get some photos. Like Doug I wouldn't expect it to show signs of bad coking, and in fact I'd expect it to look cleaner than the non-CREC engines he has seen.

 

[V6_Man]

OK, I understand - it was just a health check run on the dyno. Ignore any change in figures - that will just be down to differences on the day. Ambient temperature, tyre tread, fuel octane variations etc. can all contribute.

I carefully compared your dyno graphs to mine and they are very similar. That's what gives me confidence in MRC. OK, so we don't know how accurately their dyno reads, however the consistency between results for different cars on different days show the quality of their work.

That's reassuring! I had a slight power loss last year and hence why I booked in the health check. Doug fixed whatever the issue was. He did mention that it looked like the ECU had been tempered with - I am a bit hesitant to even check oil levels let alone touch the ECU. Tis way above my skill levels.

I agree with you on the fact that there can be different factors contributing to the results. It's a shame last year's printout don't show the IATs. Tyre tread I'd agree as they were newish at the time compared to 10k miles that they've done now. Having said that and albeit some 'gains' I am happy that my results telly with others'

Only the CREC engine meets EU6. It's still not clear to me exactly what was done to the fuelling on the CREC. I doubt that it has 12 injectors, just that its 6 injectors are in a different position than the previous engine. However I do agree with @rum4mo that it would be great to see what your valves look like when the charger is off - best of all get some photos. Like Doug I wouldn't expect it to show signs of bad coking, and in fact I'd expect it to look cleaner than the non-CREC engines he has seen.

I am slightly surprised as my understanding was Audi added the port injection to 2.0l TFSI line up in MY11 but not to 3.0V6. Another reason why I love this forum - everyday is a learning day so thanks @Dippy, @rum4mo and @arad85. I shall update my knowledge base articles




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[V6_Man]

Oil Consumption Update

@Dippy proven right once again and I am not surprised. Did a 120-ish mile trip today and checked MMI for oil reading throughout the journey and oil levels stayed at Max! Which sounds promising as it takes the mileage to 1420-ish without any oil toptups. I will check the levels via dipstick as soon as I reach home and the engine has cooled down a bit.

As per the suggestions I will definitely look in to checking the valves as and when we decide to change any of the above mentioned parts.


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[V6_Man]

I know we were discussing Carbon Cleaning, I came across this thread on Audizine and thought I'll share.

Alternative to walnut cleaning
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...om/forum/showthread.php?t=830958&share_type=t


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[arad85]

Only the CREC engine meets EU6. It's still not clear to me exactly what was done to the fuelling on the CREC. I doubt that it has 12 injectors, just that its 6 injectors are in a different position than the previous engine.

Make of this what you will:

also dont forget that your 3.0t isn't the same as the vehicles you are comparing it to , different ECU , different hardware for example you have DI and PI were as the older 3.0T only has DI not to mention it is a completely different super charger.

and in response to the question what's DI and PI

[they stand for]
Direct injection
Port injection

Your car has both , so basically you have injectors that go directly in the cylinder and injectors in the inlet

I suspect that they will have two for each given this is a performance car.

 

[Dippy]

He did mention that it looked like the ECU had been tempered with

That sounds worrying. If I were you I'd ask for more details, including exactly what he fixed. If you let a dealer at your car then there is a chance they may have tried a SW update for the ECU, and I guess that could be considered "tampering", but normally I'd imagine that he was referring to something physical.

I am slightly surprised as my understanding was Audi added the port injection to 2.0l TFSI line up in MY11 but not to 3.0V6.

I suspect that they will have two for each given this is a performance car.

Well when we found out that we had the CREC engine I did as much research as I could and saw the Audi diagram which showed the extra 6 injectors. I was rather free with my opinion about it on the forums until a few folks started challenging me. Then I rechecked the diagram and noticed that the new 6 were clearly marked as "alternate" location. Now that does imply either, but not both. I have compared photos of my engine with that of the previous one and there definitely does seem to be a difference in the position of the injectors, but I just don't see how there can be both. So I stand by my comment "It's still not clear to me exactly what was done to the fuelling on the CREC." But I'll have a look into the 2l engine and see if that gives me any clues.

 

[Dippy]

I could start a new thread on this but I couldn't be bothered yet. I had a look at the fuelling drawings for the 2.0l engine in the B8 A4 and couldn't see any mention of more than 4 injectors. I then rechecked the CREC drawing and noted that the left fuel rail has p/n 06E 133 682 C and that for the "alternative installation" left rail is 06E 130 089 AA. Then with a quick google I found these:
https://www.partsplanet.eu/en/catal...682-c-06e-906-031-06e133682c-06e906031_18541/
https://www.partsplanet.eu/en/catal...f-06c-906-036-c-06e130089af-06c906036c_18548/
Which apparently were removed from a 2015 car with a CRE (could be CREC or CRED) engine. If true then either the engine does have 4 fuel rails for 12 injectors, or else some engines have just the 2+6 in the base location and other engines have just the 2+6 in the alternate location.

 

[arad85]

So what you sayin' @Dippy?

 

[Dippy]

That you should volunteer to have your engine dismantled so we can get a definitive answer on how many injectors the CREC has.

 

[arad85]

I think mine's been apart enough times in the name of research... Your turn this time

 

[V6_Man]

@Dippy you any good with Russian language. Can you help us translate please.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/show...-0TFSI-and-upgraded-2016-V6-TFSI-EA837-Engine

If I read @arad85 's comments on this Audizine thread as well as look at just the pdf it seems to suggest that CREC engines have 2 injectors per cylinders therefore 12 injectors in total.


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[arad85]

My excuse is I'm getting old - that was over a year ago!

 

[Dippy]

Which raises the question @Tashfeen - why didn't you provide that link sooner? I am amazed that I never saw that thread. It's also amazing that @arad85 has a worse memory than me!

Anyway no I don't understand Russian although I know a few people who could translate. However no need as I found the French one to download, and there is an English version here (if anyone can work out how to download the pdf it would be great). I only wish I had seen this SSP before. I had searched the web looking for something but I guess my search terms must have been inadequate.

The first thing that the SSP reveals is that the CREC engine has more changes than I had previously thought. As we know, these changes were all to improve efficiency and meet the EU6 emission regs. The interesting highlights are:
- Redesigned oil pan
- The crankshaft is 1.67Kg lighter!
- Increased compression ratio
- Redesigned oil rings
- Redesigned PCV
- Supercharger belt tension increased
- Chain drive redesigned, including added exhaust cam adjuster
- Redesigned cylinder head - reduced weight - improved wear resistance
- DUAL FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM
- Redesigned oil system including switchable pressure pump
- Redesigned supercharger
- Modified coolant system

I don't know if the redesign of the oil pan includes the sump but I suspect it did. This is because on the old engine it is sometime necessary to grind part of it to prevent it fouling the belt when a bigger crank pulley is fitted, and this is not required on the CREC (at least it wasn't on mine).

The increase in CR could cause problems for those who want the highest pulley ratio because this enters uncharted territory.

The redesigned oil rings are claimed to reduce oil consumption. And the redesigned PCV means that there is no reason to suspect that this would be the culprit for oil consumption as it has been on the previous engine (although it does not prove that it couldn't be).

The belt tension has increased from 219N to 290N. I admit I'm not sure of any consequences for this but perhaps it could be a contributing factor to the few cases we have seen of the supercharger clutch slipping?

The camshaft drive chains have fewer links, saving some weight. I hope that in the redesign the problem of loss of tension (hence rattle) which could occur in the previous engine has been solved, but only time will tell. Presumably now that the exhaust cams can be adjusted as well as the intake cams the torque curve is slightly more optimised (although if so it has not shown itself on any of MRCs dyno graphs).

The dual fuel injection system: The SSP does indeed confirm that the CREC has both direct (FSI) and manifold/port (MPI) injection. There are 6 FSI high pressure injectors with the pressure increased from 150 to 200 bar. The injector positions have been altered slightly to improve combustion efficiency. The 6 new low pressure MPI injectors are positioned just below the intake manifold flaps. It is clear that this combination of FSI and MPI injectors is for EU6, primarily to avoid the need for a particulate filter (petrol equivalent of a DPF). The bonus is that the MPI injectors should help to avoid carbon build-up on the intake valves.

We know about the supercharger clutch and the SENT sensors. This SSP also confirms that the intercoolers are larger and angled for higher efficiency. This shows that the assumptions about tuning and need for uprating cooling do not necessarily follow for the CREC engine, or in other words it should be capable of handling a higher tune before needing an uprated rad. The chart about clutch operation proves what I suspected - that the logic for closing it is not simple, even including an algorithm to prevent it opening if it is calculated to be stressed according to a model.

It appears that the CREC has a redesigned coolant pump. We would hope that this would be more reliable that the one in the very early engines but @arad85 has had his leak!

 

[arad85]

Great research @Dippy. That'll be an interesting read later!

 

[V6_Man]

Simply brilliant @Dippy. It is definitely a bed time read.

I came across this thread and marked it as my favourite when we first discussed DPI however, I thought you and @arad85 must have come across it ... There is also a thread on a5oc.com I believe where you and another member 'Adamantium' had similar discussions a few months ago however, I couldn't find an evidence that you guys agreed on DPI being a definite chnage on CREC.

Also, I have managed to download the PDF on my phone. If you want, PM me your email and I'll send it to you.


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[V6_Man]

@arad85 putting your skills to the test . The above link that @Dippy has shared, the person who has published the SSP has it locked for printing/saving - WTF. I have managed to locate the source Google Doc but can't do anything with it (print or save etc). Even if I try to save it as a .html file, it doesn't save the whole thing. Do you think whether or not it is possible to print / save the source file? Understand if you can't, I'll have to call a few friends who are into Web Dev ...

Below is the link to source file:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/1i0ivLv93wJcZ68F60ZuPEolFF1xtmPfg/preview?rm=minimal

I have managed to translate the French version to English and have gone through all the document and it is 90% accurate. I have saved it here, in case anyone wants to access. Let me know if you are having issues.

 

[arad85]

@Tashfeen... No idea how that is locked.

 

[V6_Man]

@Tashfeen... No idea how that is locked.

Not a problem mate.

Without sounding too techi, it is a view only file shared from Google docs. I had a look at the script and he has created an Object from where he calls the Google doc file (or SSP). It has been ages I have done any dev work so don't know if it is even possible to 'unlock' it. I have managed to create a word file as well but I loose all the images for reasons unknown to me .


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[V6_Man]

Bought a winter set for the S4 as I have refurbed all 4 alloys now and can't be asked to depend on tyres fitters anymore. Alloys were bought off a forum member here and they came with Pirelli Sottozeros on them. And although the alloys were mint I had to make sure my OCD box was ticked as well.

So, this weekend, I decontaminated the alloys using Bilt Hamber Alloy Wheel Cleaner and CarPro IronX. Tyres were the washed with BH Surfex HD.

I then polished the alloys with Scholl S20 (how sad it is ) and wiped using GTechniq PW

They were finally ceramic coated with GTechniq C5

And finally put on the car this morning.

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[NevMan]

Bought a winter set for the S4 as I have refurbed all 4 alloys now and can't be asked to depend on tyres fitters anymore. Alloys were bought off a forum member here and they came with Pirelli Sottozeros on them. And although the alloys were mint I had to make sure my OCD box was ticked as well.

So, this weekend, I decontaminated the alloys using Bilt Hamber Alloy Wheel Cleaner and CarPro IronX. Tyres were the washed with BH Surfex HD.

I then polished the alloys with Scholl S20 (how sad it is ) and wiped using GTechniq PW

They were finally ceramic coated with GTechniq C5

And finally put on the car this morning.

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Excellent job mate, always satisfying to that OCD box

 

[scotty76]

Nice sandals!

Wheels looking good!

Out of interest why BH alloy cleaner and Iron X? I've always found BH to do much the same job as Iron X on wheels.

 

[V6_Man]

Nice sandals!

Wheels looking good!

Out of interest why BH alloy cleaner and Iron X? I've always found BH to do much the same job as Iron X on wheels.

Cheers mate. I was a bit apprehensive about the alloys but I have only just realised that I have a 'thing' for Silver alloys. They are growing on me .

BH is my go to product however, there were some iron residue bonded to the alloys that I couldn't get rid of with BH. It might be that I didn't give it enough dwell time. IronX managed to remove some but not all and that's why I used S20, which romoved all of them.


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[Dippy]

Can I ask where you drive such that you need a set of winter wheels?

 

[Meemo]

I don't blame you getting winters! the diamond cuts seem to suffer so badly UK salty roads, i see allot of white worming on other audis by january.. always freaked me out.
have put cquartz UK ceramic coating on mine before the first frost this year in a cheap attempt to stave this of.... but i think your approach changing the wheels is probably 100% more effective haha
Good effort on the cleaning btw, impressed!

 

[jdp1962]

Can I ask where you drive such that you need a set of winter wheels?

Gets popcorn; sits down to watch.

 

[V6_Man]

Can I ask where you drive such that you need a set of winter wheels?

'North' Oxford . It snows here in winter, knee deep .

Jokes aside, with the projects given to me I'll be on A34 a lot between Oxford and Winchester, Netley and Southampton and I am planning on spending most of December up North in Aberdeen, tis planned but not confirmed yet. I am just taking precautionary measures. I know that our roads are well surfaced and gritted in winter months but there is no harm in trying and finding out whether or not they actually make any difference.


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