Not another Nogaro!!!

[IPG]

I’ve definitely had the in line running with the wiring as I’ve described but the shop is letting me tackle the wiring again tomorrow as I can get off work early

So I’ll re wire the signal to come off of the fuse box, make sure it’s 4 gauge wiring all around, solder up at the ring terminals, and make sure the in-line pump is buzzing away as it should before getting back on dyno.

Not had this issue on any of the builds done at Bills... 1000cc, 500+ hp, no swirl pot... you have another issue IMO...

<tuffty/>

That’s the thing, so many other setups have been the same or are making more power, which I’ve based my fuelling system off. So it should be able to handle it...

 

[IPG]

The guys at Underground Performance were kind enough to let me tear things apart and re-do the wiring.

found that what i did aaaaages ago... stupidly... is i had a 12V running direct from battery (big gauge) = good

which i joined up with a very skinny *** wire (maybe 22AWG? it was like 5 strands of very thin wire... maybe 4) with a spade connector to the relay holder wire (which i attached the other side of a spade - IDK what i was thinking!) = bad

this same relay also had a very skinny ground wire (ground point shared at that common point under the steering wheel column) = bad

& the signal i had joined up to 87f/diesel = not the best

SO i'm hoping the following helps my situation
- the battery fat 12v is now fused w/15A in-line and soldered at both ends of fuse holder wiring to the 40A relay
- power to the 044 is now using much thicker spec wiring soldered from the relay holder to a ring terminal at the fuel pump
- pump -ve is now a thick copper core running from 044 to a ground in front of the fuse box (there are two big 13mm bolts)
- relay -ve now also uses the other bolt in this area for ground
- relay signal taken from fuel pump blue w/red stripe wire (thickness of wire same spec)

Tomorrow - switch over of throttle body boost pipe

 

[superkarl]

Good luck


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[Stuart B]

Any news Ian?
This is like waiting for updates of a baby being born.

 

[IPG]

Any news Ian?
This is like waiting for updates of a baby being born.

LOL

Things have been busy at the tuners with the volume of cars... with Noggie there have been many ponderings of how to tackle the lowering fuel pressure when the turbo is on full chat

... enter Walbro 460

Tuners had a spare 8P pump laying around which looked pretty much the same as the 8L bar the top hat of the basket and the plug which has 5 pins. I asked if they had the time to modify it. Basically they hinted that "will take time" = they're busy = they'll charge more for time = i said i'd do it myelf. Have been very lucky to be able to store the car in their naughty corner.

- here's the job... 8P basket, OEM pump top right, Walbro 460 bottom




- push this clip out




- remove the clip & top nipple


- separate this hose to re-use


- this needs to come out


- well that doesn't fit too well now does it


- OEM 8P pump vs Walbro 460


- time to do a bit of hacking away


- when butt up against the bottom the pump in is blocked and doesn't line up to where the stock "funnel" would be. Notice the flat hollow at 3 o'clock. this is where the OEM pump has a funnel into it.


- marking out a wider hole


- here you can see how the green tube acts as a filter. On the outside of it, but within the main basket, is screen material. At the bottom it drains out to where the fuel would feed into the pump. I saw how this worked by filling it up with water to see how it all flowed. Didn't know they worked this way!


- fitting an 0ring to help seat the pump in place without it flopping about. i ended up doing this from the top instead of underneath like i was trying in this pic


- now it sits in there tight. Routing the wiring and feed tube


- sock on




- So seeing how the water flowed before it would fill the basket (outside of the green tube) then run onto the sock. Any excess would be sucked into the hollow and into the sock > pump




*fingers crossed* this fixes things up...

 

[IPG]

Looks promising

 

[Stuart B]

So are you still using 2 pumps or just this one replacement?

 

[IPG]

Just this one I’m pretty sure.

The wiring for the in line is all still there so if another one is needed in the future it can be quickly upgraded

 

[<tuffty/>]

Just this one I’m pretty sure.

The wiring for the in line is all still there so if another one is needed in the future it can be quickly upgraded

I assume you have removed the inline pump and not left it in the fuel line..

<tuffty/>

 

[IPG]

I assume you have removed the inline pump and not left it in the fuel line..

<tuffty/>

Check

The fuel filter is back in its original spot.

 

[IPG]

Had my first driver training/track day over the weekend!!! Got driver training in a race prepped Toyota 86 and then was scooting around in our passenger car that we bought along, a Fiat Grande Punto T-Jet.

Hooked!!!

 

[tcg]

Got driver training in a race prepped Toyota 86

Glad to see you finally got to experience a real Jap motor not long and you'll be doing the same in your S3.

 

[superkarl]

Glad to see you finally got to experience a **** Jap motor not long and you'll be doing the same in your S3.

*



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[IPG]

Glad to see you finally got to experience a real Jap motor not long and you'll be doing the same in your S3.

That’s the plan. And I wanna do skid pan training too. After speaking to other coaches they recommend this as you learn the car at its limits.

*



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LOL
yeah the car was slow but cornering is incredible!

 

[Prawn]

Tuna

After speaking to other coaches they recommend this as you learn the car at its limits.

This is so important. Only when you know the limit can you then know how close to that limit you are pushing!

I've been in cars with people who thought they were going fast, but were actually a million miles from the cars limit.

Similarly, I've also been in the car with people who think they're more than safe, not even realising they're seconds away from pushing too far and having a huge accident

 

[IPG]

Tuning with e85 and now injectors are fine up until 7200 at which duty cycle jumps from ~80 to the 100’s



It’s like chasing my tail over and over and I’m getting tired of not actually driving it

Looks like fuel pressure is dropping again even wth the uprated pump but this has not been confirmed yet.

tHEre are two fuel filters fitted. So IDK if those are causing a restriction or if it’s becsude I used a barb fitting to join two sections of fuel hose together from the rail (don’t remember if it’s feed or the return)

So another weekend goes by and more research as to what to do next. *sigh*
Thinking to draw the line here to be honest.

 

[superkarl]

You need approx 25% more flow for E85 than for conventional fuels. This needs to be taken into account when selecting injectors/pumps/lines


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[BuuBBa]

What was the power level with that dyno pull? IMO, if the injectors are running out, the graph should be steady growing up to 100%.
Is voltage steady (alternator working)? Or maybe try another fuel pressure regulator?

 

[IPG]

I didn’t get a power read out unfortunately. I’ve not asked ...

Alternator is definitely working. Fpr was switched for a Bosch Oem unit. It’s not that.

It’s the obvious and that’s merely fuel pump isn’t able to keep up in its stock location using e85. I would need to do a surge tank setup to keep it happy then to keep the injectors from being too high of duty cycle thy would also need an upgrade.

 

[BuuBBa]

So you have a log of the voltage? Only asking, as my previous car (volvo) had this kind of situation. The voltage was ok when idling and mid revs, but dropped at high rpm.

I know few 2.7t cars with this pump in original position and pushing 550-600 chp, so it just seems weird not working in 8L with that power/boost levels.
I'll use the same pump with Nuke surge tank on my S3, but only to have the original pump, so there will be flow to the other side of the tank. Some have had success with aftermarket pumps but others have problems that the fuel is not transfering from other side, so they will have just about half tank capacity in use.

 

[IPG]

So you have a log of the voltage? Only asking, as my previous car (volvo) had this kind of situation. The voltage was ok when idling and mid revs, but dropped at high rpm.

I watch the voltage stay at 13.5+ on colormfa

I’ve done the walbro setup as per a Quattro TT owners setup and he has used the tank down to fumes... once I get mine back I’ll be able to report back if this is the case or not.

 

[IPG]

... and I drew the line ....

The fuelling setup is falling short when using e85, have lost the will to keep it at the shop, not drive it, and keep chasing numbers / dumping more and more money into it so I’m going with an Aussie 98 tune (our 98 fuel has a lower octane rating ) and just going to drive it for what’s it is.

 

[tcg]

Don't beat yourself up mate,you have a stunning example of a 'wolf in sheep's clothing' and you should enjoy what you've achieved.

You'll soon have the smile back on your face once you've had some fun.

 

[IPG]

Thanks mate - i think that's what's been getting me down. The hope for more... then... issue... fixed something up.... was hoping for more.... another issue...

Just felt like it was never going to end - hence why i'm stopping for now.

 

[tcg]

Once a fantasy becomes a reality,it's no longer a fantasy.

And like @Stuart B ,you both bought the wrong colour

 

[Prawn]

It's still going to be well north of 400bhp isn't it? Im sure you'll love it dude

 

[Stuart B]

just drive it up to 7200RPM and be done with it. broom broom

 

[IPG]

It's still going to be well north of 400bhp isn't it? Im sure you'll love it dude

We’ll see. I’ve gotta run the e85 out first to then put in 98 and upload a 98 tune.

I forgot how planted Noggie is on bum day especially turning.

just drive it up to 7200RPM and be done with it. broom broom

Revlimit 8000rpm

 

[Stuart B]

but you have said it doesn't work over 7200. to be honest looking at your chart are you sure the problem isn't between 6600 ad 7200? the rest of the chart looks progressive?

 

[<tuffty/>]

but you have said it doesn't work over 7200. to be honest looking at your chart are you sure the problem isn't between 6600 ad 7200? the rest of the chart looks progressive?

View attachment 144282

ECU will ramp up duty cycle to meet requested AFR if pressure starts to drop off...

tbh between 6.5k and 7.2k duty seems to be settling down... would need to see airflow/boost and AFR to make any real sense of this chart as there is no context

<tuffty/>

 

[IPG]

ECU will ramp up duty cycle to meet requested AFR if pressure starts to drop off...
<tuffty/>

They said pressure was holding.

tbh between 6.5k and 7.2k duty seems to be settling down... would need to see airflow/boost and AFR to make any real sense of this chart as there is no context

<tuffty/>

This is where I don’t have the info as that data wasn’t shared

I guess I could pull the data myself now that I’ve got the car back. But is it safe for me to do this on the road. I’d be worried about breaking the engine.

It’s been suggested to bypass everything using a fuel line from pump direct to rail to see if there’s anything in the feed that’s restricting.

 

[Prawn]

I realise I have no experience of such things, so I may be speaking out of turn here, but personally I don' t these super high flow in tank pumps with home made bags etc on the bottom.

I don't trust them one bit.

Good known stock in tank pump, in a totally factory housing, feeding an inline da31 or 044 from a proper sized feed via a relay.

In my opinion that's the best you'll get without changing all the fuel lines and going to a swirl pot setup, but for the power you're wanting you just shouldn't need that.

 

[IPG]

Will see how this setup holds up once the e85 is out and the 98 fuel and tune is back in

Was bouncing messages back and forth with Brian C who has this pump. Only other stuff that’s different in his setup are way way bigger injectors (1659cc) and some kind of custom in tank surge setup. Dw365 on outside of tank, walbro 450 in the tabknfeeding rail.

 

[IPG]

I realise I have no experience of such things, so I may be speaking out of turn here, but personally I don' t these super high flow in tank pumps with home made bags etc on the bottom.

I don't trust them one bit.

Good known stock in tank pump, in a totally factory housing, feeding an inline da31 or 044 from a proper sized feed via a relay.

In my opinion that's the best you'll get without changing all the fuel lines and going to a swirl pot setup, but for the power you're wanting you just shouldn't need that.

I decided to go for a drive to run out the e85.


... I was getting told “you won’t be able to run the car under a quarter of a tank”. Well looks like that’s incorrect as I got it down to when low fuel level warning come on - literally as I pulled into the drive.

This morning before I drove to work I stuck my head under the bonnet and found

So @BuuBBa this made me laugh as you mentioned the alternator thing

After work I decided to run the fuel down but before this drive I was a tad curious to see if I could pull any codes as when I drove it to work in the morning I decided to check out what the tuner had said that “it falls on it’s face at 1bar” And yes. Definitely at 1 bar there was machine gun action. Much like a misfire. So I let it kiss 1 bar and didn’t go back there again.

Couldn’t read codes through colormfa as the k line is still running direct to OBD so had to hook up VCDS...



I had picked up a fresh set of coils before taking it into the shop... I didn’t install them but left them in the passenger seat in case they were needed. Looks like they were because I was able to rev the shizz out of the engine smoothly all the way to rev cut (at~6200_6500) and the car was pulling like no ones business and the boost gauge happily shooting past 1 bar without hesitation.

.... I’m really not sure what to do now TBH...

Seems like it’s working OK. Don’t know how much power it’s making as the last runs were met with the fuelling issue as pictured before .... but it was all down to bad coilpacks?

 

[Erikn89nl]

Worth another go, if funds allow ofcourse...

 

[IPG]

 

[IPG]

Worth another go, if funds allow ofcourse...

There are hardly any funds... it’s the most wonderful time of the year

= I’m poor.

 

[Stuart B]

what's going on?

Ian, you have "invested" so much now, you have to simply carry on until it's done. just get a second job, sell off the spare S3 etc etc get this thing safely screaming down the road - you have rewritten the book on the S3 modifications you have achieved.

Whatever happened to that flat cam shaft cover you got from the scrap yard?

I am so jealous of your care to detail and patience - for me, once I got the car working for more than a day without breaking down - I just wanted more more more power expecting it would soon break again but at least it would be my fault this time, these cars are only fun whilst they are mechanically being worked on - but considering no one now in my family will get in the car in case it breaks down - I am going to have to move on soon.

even if you "have had enough" you will need to prove it works before taking it apart and selling the bits.

Is your coil failure not more likely to be caused by whatever the issue was rather than the reason the issue existed?

 

[hydro s3]

Stuart B i think you should start a thread and rebuild urs and get it back going like it should. Then your family might start getting in the car with you again lol.

 

[Stuart B]

nope - after all the complaints / whining etc - I have owned this for ages compared to other cars.

I need to get another "family" car first then I think I want an S4. but I have bought mods for this car and am too honest to sell it for anything more than "a project with an MOT and I cannot guarantee it will make it home" especially as I had to drive it home without a clutch the other day, reminded me of being a teenager in my escort mark 2 getting back from holiday from Swanage as a learner with only 2nd and 4th, no starter motor, handbrake or reverse gear and I had to drive it with the choke out and had to have the heater on to stop it overheating.