8L bigger turbo

[Solberg]

So, got a hybrid on insane boost but its just not giving me the kick, my cousing has a e30 b25 with 500hp and tha ****** tears the soul out of me.


I need some opinions on turbo choice. Was first looking at these EFR turbos mainly because not having to do custom downpipe, all I care about now is alot horsepower with some insane turbolag, mostly because it wil be torminated on trackdays doing most high rpm, redlight pulls is for kids(no pun intended) or if not just clutch that ****** up on some high rpm and launch like a dragon.


Been looking at Garret gen2 GTX2860 with vband in and out and turbular manifoild, rated at 475+ hp.
That said, new turbo, new injectors, fueling is okay, block and top is uprated and forged, need turbular vband manifoild and some rewelding on the downpipe maybe. But what about tranny, axles and diff, at what power levels will these kind of things explode? Or anytihng else to keep an eye on when doing some higher outputs?


I am not locked on this turbo just putting my mind out here and hoping for some relevant experience from someone that is more into this than me.

Got my k04 hybrid up in 1,7 bar with safe efrs and that thing kicks, but just rode with a friends 600+ cossie sierra and just wanted to burn my S3 after to be honest.

 

[djslm]

burn it lol

 

[S3 Hilife]

The AET billet GT3076r that Bill uses is an awesome turbo if you're looking at 500+ but you won't get your "insane turbo lag" though lol. You'll be hard pushed trying to squeeze 475+ out of a gtx28 Gen2. If you're going to the expense of fitting tubular v band manifold and external WG then you might as well go with the gt30 in my opinion


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[superkarl]

Agreed.

 

[Prawn]

Were you drunk when you wrote that post? It seems a little different to your usual posts....

Nothing with 28 at the start of it's name will get you what you want. forget manufacturers claims, it just doesn't happen.

GT3076, in some billet form is what you need. Be that HTA, AET, or GTX.

It won't be cheap though, and a custom downpipe will be the least of your worries!

Badger5 can supply everything you need

 

[Stuart B]

just get a fireblade

 

[Pasteurised]

 

[Solberg]

Were you drunk when you wrote that post? It seems a little different to your usual posts....

Nothing with 28 at the start of it's name will get you what you want. forget manufacturers claims, it just doesn't happen.

GT3076, in some billet form is what you need. Be that HTA, AET, or GTX.

It won't be cheap though, and a custom downpipe will be the least of your worries!

Badger5 can supply everything you need

Dont even remember making this thread... dunno if that is a good bad thing tho


But yes I am in and have been for long in the thinking box for a BT setup. First I was looking alot at EFR turbos with internal wg, but my goal is to mostly track the car aka running high gears mostly.

Gt28 is out of the game, seem more tham a little uprated k04 hybrid.

A gt30 is next level but still is it worth it, with a forged and proffesional built engine I want it to the limit, I have NO clue what goes to pieces first when excluding the engine.

Gt30...gt35...gt40, i would appriciate alot more experiences. Build cost is not so big concern to some pointt. I mean a gt30 or gt40 goes on the same vband mani, same vband downpipe (which i have). Need atleast a new vband turbo, vband manifoild, injectors. New oil/water feeds and downpipe modding I can fix my self.

If gearbox or diffs need modding thats good to know aswell. Not going to the track with a big turbo and **** blows somewhere after 3 turns....

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[Stuart B]

you're a perfectionist like IanG use his thread if you want to junk your frankenturbo and go mad.

 

[Prawn]

Your existing downpipe won't be any use to you at all either.

You'll want a tubular top mount manifold, external gate etc. Gt3076 is probably the answer to your needs

 

[JonnyDerv]

Surely if you're going to be tracking it hard you don't want it "to the limit".

Quite confusing as you've said you want it to the limit but you don't want stuff to blow "after three turns". Are we talking about a reliable limit or pushing it to the actual limit? Because the wording makes it sound like the latter.

 

[badger5]

track use, why build something on its limit?
that will only end in tears

 

[Solberg]

To the limit as safe as possible of course. To put it different if I say mount a 550 turbo and things are good with the engine. At what powers will i need to say uprate my gearbox, how much can the haldex take, diffs, will i need som kind of uprated axles etc? In the drift scene here i hear axles snap like wooden sticks so when i build i want it to be reliable even tho i obv know some things brake no matter what you do.

I also remember a 1.8t drag car that was on the internet a little back who blew the entire bottom of the engine with crank blasted to the ground.

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[superkarl]

To the limit as safe as possible of course. To put it different if I say mount a 550 turbo and things are good with the engine. At what powers will i need to say uprate my gearbox, how much can the haldex take, diffs, will i need som kind of uprated axles etc? In the drift scene here i hear axles snap like wooden sticks so when i build i want it to be reliable even tho i obv know some things brake no matter what you do.

I also remember a 1.8t drag car that was on the internet a little back who blew the entire bottom of the engine with crank blasted to the ground.

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Gearboxes fail because they're old and people overlook them, like myself.
I would do updated shift forks as a minimum.
All the other gearbox 'mods' are trivial to me as they're all limited by the casing. How bolting something to the casing can improve strength I don't know.

Diffs and haldex are fine if Well serviced.

Front shafts have been known to twist because they're hollow. But you say no mention of drag racing/launching.

If I was to do it again I'd have a stroker 3076

 

[JonnyDerv]

Diff's do fail, my rear diff failed at about 118k although I did run a blue controller for a while. Never did a full launch though (not my thing).

 

[Stuart B]

To the limit as safe as possible of course. To put it different if I say mount a 550 turbo and things are good with the engine. At what powers will i need to say uprate my gearbox, how much can the haldex take, diffs, will i need som kind of uprated axles etc? In the drift scene here i hear axles snap like wooden sticks so when i build i want it to be reliable even tho i obv know some things brake no matter what you do.

I also remember a 1.8t drag car that was on the internet a little back who blew the entire bottom of the engine with crank blasted to the ground.

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I remember Bill pointing out they didn't fit a girdle between the sump and block.

why not consider a different starting point for your "super fast" car?

 

[antwan64og]

Another chassis will be the answer to your needs of drifting!

Haldex isn't designed for full time 50:50 power which is what you need, the rear end will burn out.

 

[Tj 0785]

S4 2.7 bi turbo for big power and permanent 4wd

 

[<tuffty/>]

S4 2.7 bi turbo for big power and permanent 4wd

...and deep pockets plus a nice garage to take the engine out each time you want to do anything

<tuffty/>

 

[JonnyDerv]

Getting rare as **** too

 

[Stuart B]

they are only 4K unless you get an MRC tuned thing.

 

[Solberg]

could buy something else but ive invested and insane amount in my S3 so would be "cool" to have something else dont have, S3 are RARE today, I just went to audi/vw norwegen mainclub summer meet and there where 3 S3s there, 2 standard and one with the 450hp EFR running around 320hp.... but nothing crazy, in comparison there was like 12 RS2s and alot rs4s. Noone around here goes crazy in a S3 8L.


Just look at this guys, I sat on the sideline with goosebumps that lasted 5 days after watching mr Mazhar Iqbal and his 1200 4,7l RS4 burn around Rudskogen like it was a jetplane. Not saying my goal is 1200whp, but ive had good slides with my 300whp S3, so having 550 would be killer i think, and ive got no haldex plug. I come from the rwd scene and are pretty new to audi and quattro, but gotto say doing bakwards entries full throttle and just float out of it is kind of a drug abuse.




After what ive seen him say the engine and gears have been all fine this season, only thing that has broke was the axles (not sure if thats the right word) but shafts from gearbox to wheels. Snaps like drywood.

 

[Stuart B]

driveshafts -

staceys3 - I think drag races and keeps turning his apart.

donw you have to weld the diff like BMWs to drift - or is it all power.

 

[Solberg]

But can you weld the diffs on an haldex S3? Ive welded diffs on biimers and thats a piece of cake but on a tran engine/gearbox and haldex in rear how do you attack that?

On the RS4s there are some other stuff, thorsen diffs etc. And might even be center diffs for all i know?


50/50 haldex plug could work but would be better with say 80 back and 20 front permanent with welded diffs or maybe lsd front and back.


Anyone made a 8l drift car before?


Ive drifted on wet with mine and no haldex plug and if you know how to controll movements the car riplies back you can get it side ways but the poor haldex and power to the back does it so you wont get enough angle on the back to even call it a drift, more like a "slideways", I can handbrake into sharp turns but you never know if the rear will kick in or not and that is ab scary. Could be an option to take diffs from another car, from say an E30 325 weld it and machine new driveshafts.

 

[superkarl]

You'd have to lock the haldex for a welded diff to work. Permanent 50:50 valve or whatever

 

[snowy]

But can you weld the diffs on an haldex S3? Ive welded diffs on biimers and thats a piece of cake

Yes they can be; got one waiting to be welded up (for use on loose gravel)

A YHW insert for the haldex controller

There's no torque spliiter in the drivetrain, so 100% of torque can be tranfered to rear axle
convert to rwd by removing front driftshafts

S3's are short & front heavy, so a large amount of ballast needed in the boot for controlled drifiting; and lots geo work too

With the drivetrain and geo setup right, 300hp is more than adequate get a car drifting

A decent turning braking setup would also be v.helpful

 

[<tuffty/>]

convert to rwd by removing front driftshafts

...after welding the front diff I assume...

Be quite a loading on the haldex clutch pack though I would imagine though...

<tuffty/>

 

[Solberg]

Wow thats interesting snowy, got any build threads etc on this? Ive notced alot B5s are beeing rwd converted but thats another diff setup anyways? But... rwd would be coo aswell i love awd backwards entries

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Can you weld the haldex clutch system all togheter?

 

[antwan64og]

You can do front and rear haldex LSD's for like £1600 with a powertrack 50:50 insert.

Total madness but you can do it!

Whats you full build spec anyway and what G/S or dyno do you make?

 

[snowy]

...after welding the front diff I assume...

Be quite a loading on the haldex clutch pack though I would imagine though...

<tuffty/>

the rear pto is driven by the outer case of the front diff, so no load across the axle isn't an issue

Haldex's are tougher than some megabucks motorsport LSC's, if going rwd best to ditch it altogther though

You can do front and rear haldex LSD's for like £1600 with a powertrack 50:50 insert.

all the off the shelf rear diffs (peloquin/quaife) are torsens, which aren't suited to drifting

Ideally you used a tightly setup plate diff, but the way the haldex fits the lsc to the rear axle drive doesn't lend itself readily for using a plate diff

There are a few plate diff options for the front axle - eg sqs

Ive notced alot B5s are beeing rwd converted but thats another diff setup anyways?

torque splitter and torsen diff to pull out and replace with spools or something similar, not sure what you might to do to the gearbox

ancient old tech

 

[Solberg]

You can do front and rear haldex LSD's for like £1600 with a powertrack 50:50 insert.

Total madness but you can do it!

Whats you full build spec anyway and what G/S or dyno do you make?

Franken F23 Turbo.

Bosch 550cc injectors.

Frankenturbo "chinafold".

3" Zinram turboback with 10ish cm 4" from turbo down to 3".

IE tuscan Ibeam rods (rated for 1000hp)

Wiseco Pistons

Polished crank

New bearings dont remember what coalico
somthing maybe

Honed cylinders.

AJL bigport top which is overhauled dont know with what tho.

Brembo BigReds 332×32mm front 4 piston, 2x44mm and 2x38mm i think.

KW V2 coilovers with rebound adjustment.

FORGE rear camber arms.

Braided brake lines.

Doing FULL black series powerflex bushings all over this winter.

3"MAF with CAI

4bar FPR

9.5" rims.

034 motorsport race engine and trans mounts.

ECS Tuning Dogbone mount.

Daeschwerk DV65 intank 500hp rated fuelpump.

Turbopressure gauge.

Wideband Gauge (ecu is smallband).

New gaskets EVERYWHERE.

New coolingfluid, new LiquiMolly 10W60 on engine, new liquimolly oil on gearbox and diffs, new haldex oil and filter. And all this has been changed often.

I have not compression tested the engine but it seems all good.

Mapping I belive I will be somewhere 300 or MAX 350whp.

Car is now mapped at 265whp @ 1.1bar turbo pressure, OEM downpipe and fuelpump made it stop there.


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[<tuffty/>]

the rear pto is driven by the outer case of the front diff, so no load across the axle isn't an issue

Interesting... only ever removed transfer boxes for gearbox removal so not really paid it much attention...

https://audi.7zap.com/en/rdw/audi+a3+s3+sportb+lim+qu/a3/2001-209/4/409-409047/

Would imagine there are a few other challenges in keeping the haldex fully engaged beyond the powertrak insert as that won't fully engage the clutch pack still... might engage it enough to get you going but generally haldex only kicks in when slip is detected...

SQS do a manual controller... alternatively you could try crafting a n other proper rear diff in

<tuffty/>

 

[Solberg]

Would be cool to try this removing front shafts. Remove haldex if its not possible to weld the clutch pads togheter and put on a m3 diff or something and weld it.


What diffs does these guys who run B5s with rwd?

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[antwan64og]

Franken F23 Turbo.

Bosch 550cc injectors.

Frankenturbo "chinafold".

3" Zinram turboback with 10ish cm 4" from turbo down to 3".

IE tuscan Ibeam rods (rated for 1000hp)

Wiseco Pistons

Polished crank

New bearings dont remember what coalico
somthing maybe

Honed cylinders.

AJL bigport top which is overhauled dont know with what tho.

Brembo BigReds 332×32mm front 4 piston, 2x44mm and 2x38mm i think.

KW V2 coilovers with rebound adjustment.

FORGE rear camber arms.

Braided brake lines.

Doing FULL black series powerflex bushings all over this winter.

3"MAF with CAI

4bar FPR

9.5" rims.

034 motorsport race engine and trans mounts.

ECS Tuning Dogbone mount.

Daeschwerk DV65 intank 500hp rated fuelpump.

Turbopressure gauge.

Wideband Gauge (ecu is smallband).

New gaskets EVERYWHERE.

New coolingfluid, new LiquiMolly 10W60 on engine, new liquimolly oil on gearbox and diffs, new haldex oil and filter. And all this has been changed often.

I have not compression tested the engine but it seems all good.

Mapping I belive I will be somewhere 300 or MAX 350whp.

Car is now mapped at 265whp @ 1.1bar turbo pressure, OEM downpipe and fuelpump made it stop there.


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I was curious what was left to optimise the F23 turbo. The turbine housing and manifold are ported to 47mm from frankenturbo which is good.

What about FMIC? A set up like yours needs a 600 x 300 x 76mm cooler?

Has your cylinder head got one piece stainless inlet valves, inconel exhaust valves and uprated valve springs? Essential to rev upto 7500rpm.

What inlet manifold? Since you have a large port head have you got the stock small port inlet manifold on there?

Lastly camshafts. The N/A inlet camshaft from the ADR or AGN engine will carry power higher up the rev range.

If you can optimise the hardware you have and get mapped to 1.5-7 bar you might not want to change turbo.

 

[Stuart B]

Would be cool to try this removing front shafts. Remove haldex if its not possible to weld the clutch pads togheter and put on a m3 diff or something and weld it.


What diffs does these guys who run B5s with rwd?

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I thought you said that modified cars were frowned upon in your country

get an e36 1.8is for about £1K and fit a turbo to that (or just put on cheap hard tyres on the rear), chain driven cam and light as a feather and keep your S3 for Sunday best.

 

[Solberg]

I was curious what was left to optimise the F23 turbo. The turbine housing and manifold are ported to 47mm from frankenturbo which is good.

What about FMIC? A set up like yours needs a 600 x 300 x 76mm cooler?

Has your cylinder head got one piece stainless inlet valves, inconel exhaust valves and uprated valve springs? Essential to rev upto 7500rpm.

What inlet manifold? Since you have a large port head have you got the stock small port inlet manifold on there?

Lastly camshafts. The N/A inlet camshaft from the ADR or AGN engine will carry power higher up the rev range.

If you can optimise the hardware you have and get mapped to 1.5-7 bar you might not want to change turbo.

Forgot to mention, I have the big Wagner FMIC, same as they sell on 034

I did not build the engine myself, thats just all I know. I got a receipt for all engine parts and they look promising, all hardware have been done on a proffesional shop here in Norway so no garage and late night beer wrenching. About the engine top I have a receipt that is only noted with "Top work" and a bill for around 400gbp, but I have no idea what have been done, could just be that parts have been renewed and things have been "gone over". My redline is stock, i hit max like a standard S3 so would think I have stock cams. The rocker cover is off atm so if there is anyway I can tak pictures probably difficult tho without taking more stuff apart.

Anyways I am keeping this car and I spent helluva lots of investment in it so its a keeper and the list of things to be done is long, engine is fine, but if i need to overhaul the top with higher rpm cams and high power valves I will most def do it. I just need to know what need to be done and no short cuts.

I see some say you only need to uprated exhaust valves but if I am doing a enginetop job im changing it all for the better.



My S3 is a 99 APY, its got the APY block but the head is an AJL no idea why but i know AJL is bigport, I also have the bigport to small port "adapter rubber gasket between head and inlet manifoild. Inlet mani is stock, TB is also stock.

Old pic, this have all been refined but this is the stock inlet I guess, it has the AJL and the adapter between head and inlet from Integrated Engineering. Mapper said it stopped at 265@1,1 bar because of stock downpipe/stock fuelpump.

I am mapping it after building and upgrading trough the winter, if a new turbo it will probably be next winter I want to see what the Franken can make first. BUT I want a bigger turbo after that.

Took the valve cover off to change gasket after oil spill, and you can see oil in front right at the screw, upper half moon was leaking like a bitch and LOOK at all the oil in the back, I guess the turbo/mani have been so warm back there that the rubber gasket have crimped, was a mess around turbo.

 

[antwan64og]

Stock valves are 2 piece, which can come apart at higher powers and temperatures. The upgrade is to stainless inlet valves and inconel exhaust valves. For £400 that will be a head refresh with new stem seals. Upgraded Valves are £500 on their own and valve springs are upwards of £250....


That looks like a stock turbo inlet pipe! Which will collapse at higher boost levels and limit power. Badger5 sells 2 nice versions in silicon.

With a silicon inlet it should make good power when mapped.

The only other minor upgrade woukd be an N/a inlet cam £30 off ebay and major upgrade would be an aftermarker inlet manifold (which many say you don't benefit from with a k04 frame).

 

[Solberg]

Stock valves are 2 piece, which can come apart at higher powers and temperatures. The upgrade is to stainless inlet valves and inconel exhaust valves. For £400 that will be a head refresh with new stem seals. Upgraded Valves are £500 on their own and valve springs are upwards of £250....


That looks like a stock turbo inlet pipe! Which will collapse at higher boost levels and limit power. Badger5 sells 2 nice versions in silicon.

With a silicon inlet it should make good power when mapped.

The only other minor upgrade woukd be an N/a inlet cam £30 off ebay and major upgrade would be an aftermarker inlet manifold (which many say you don't benefit from with a k04 frame).

Thank you veyr much for good tips mate!

I belive the inlet hose is stock but it has some kind of steel inside the rubber so its not soft its actually very hard? Anyways its melted at the part that goes onto the turbo so will buy one from Bill later on.

I had and issue earlier when the turbo boosted up to 2,2bar turbo pressure and the AFR was jumping between 16-18 on WOT. This made my turbo and mani glow like it was on fire and the LSU4,9 broke down immediately, but somehow the engine/head is still good, lucky me.

n/a inlet cam you mean an inlet cam from a non turbo 1,8?

 

[antwan64og]

Yes the inlet camshaft from a non turbo A4 b5 engine code ADR or non turbo A3 8L engine code AGN. Bill even uses this on his hybrid K04 powered Lupo.

The Inlet pipe will be collasping, its well documented.

 

[Solberg]

Yes the inlet camshaft from a non turbo A4 b5 engine code ADR or non turbo A3 8L engine code AGN. Bill even uses this on his hybrid K04 powered Lupo.

The Inlet pipe will be collasping, its well documented.

What is the benefit of using this cam? Higher rpm?

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