Stage 2 not right .

[Dippy]

Agreed it certainly helps exploit the extra performance from the mapping......The other thing I was told by MRC was that as part of the gearbox map the clamping force on the DSG clutches is increased to handle the extra torque produced from the stage 2 map thus preventing clutch slip and premature clutch wear?

Good point - indeed without a gearbox remap there must be a danger of clutch slip. IIRC Doug at MRC was telling me that they regularly see tuned Golfs with clutch slip because the OEM map doesn't apply enough force.

Also as per @arad85 's experience with his APR TCU remap, the MRC one changes gear quicker and I immediately noticed it. However one thing the APR remap is better at than the MRC one is in the changes to the shift points. I wish MRC had done the same. I'd like to be able to drive at less than full throttle but not have the gearbox keep changing up at low revs.

 

[Cerbera9]

Good point - indeed without a gearbox remap there must be a danger of clutch slip. IIRC Doug at MRC was telling me that they regularly see tuned Golfs with clutch slip because the OEM map doesn't apply enough force.

Also as per @arad85 's experience with his APR TCU remap, the MRC one changes gear quicker and I immediately noticed it. However one thing the APR remap is better at than the MRC one is in the changes to the shift points. I wish MRC had done the same. I'd like to be able to drive at less than full throttle but not have the gearbox keep changing up at low revs.

When did you have your DSG map at MRC? I had mine done in Feb this year with the latest version and its super smooth although as you've experienced the gearbox keep changing up at low revs, it seems they have refined the DSG map several times now so older cars could possibly benefit from an update.

 

[Dippy]

My TCU was mapped at the end of Feb so its the same as yours. I already checked with Ben what changed in the remap and he confirmed that they do NOT change any shift points. I may broach the subject sometime but I'll wait until we hear from APR about the problem of the CREC supercharger clutch slip. If the UC becomes viable then I'll need to discuss it with MRC and I'll cover the possibility of a custom TCU map then.

 

[GarethS4]

Guys I had my car up today for the map to be looked at and get onto the rr as it wasn't ready when I got work done previously .not a good day yet again.i don't know wtf is going on.car has apr pulley and milltek cat back and mapped ,nothing else .at one point the lad took the pipe of to the air filter and it gained 30whp but obv I had to put this back on so I guess an intake is needed.very poor figures and I am totally gutted tbh .
Finished at 407 hp and 505nm .

 

[GarethS4]

Any ideas what could be wrong with my car .

 

[arad85]

Having re-read the thread, we don't know who mapped your car, what map they used or where it came from. I would suggest getting the car mapped at a known and reputable dealer. Perhaps bite the bullet and go to the NI APR dealer...

 

[GarethS4]

They are to the best of my knowledge chum.it is not an apr map though as the guy does use his own.one of the best in n Ireland.thats 3 s4 done ,one is 380,mine at 407 and other at 435

 

[arad85]

Err.... that's not consistent and way down on what is achievable. There's more than a few MRC stage 2 maps that are 470hp+/585NM, my APR is 486hp/565NM. You're hacking a computer here. Pay someone who knows what they are doing (and I speak as someone who writes software for a living)...

 

[xpoweruk]

@ The wheels or @ The crank ?

 

[arad85]

Good point XP...

 

[Dippy]

Assuming that the 505Nm is crank then 407HP looks reasonable as crank too. I've looked at a few charts and as a rule of thumb, torque at peak power is about 90% of its own peak. So since this is a 2012 car I assume its a B8.5 so it will be revving to about 6500rpm. With 450Nm and 6500rpm in an online calculator ('cos I can't be bothered to "do the math" myself) I get 410HP.

@GarethS4 -
Is your car a B8.5? I assume you have not had a gearbox remap so your redline is still around 6500rpm?
Has your car been scanned for errors? I would hope your tuner has but there's no guarantee.
Are you 100% sure that it has an undersize s/c pulley? Has the diameter been measured?
Do you have any intake mods?
What fuel are you using?

 

[GarethS4]

Err.... that's not consistent and way down on what is achievable. There's more than a few MRC stage 2 maps that are 470hp+/585NM, my APR is 486hp/565NM. You're hacking a computer here. Pay someone who knows what they are doing (and I speak as someone who writes software for a living)...

This guy also writes programs on a daily basis and from past experiences knows very well what he is doing .i could be wrong though .

 

[GarethS4]

Assuming that the 505Nm is crank then 407HP looks reasonable as crank too. I've looked at a few charts and as a rule of thumb, torque at peak power is about 90% of its own peak. So since this is a 2012 car I assume its a B8.5 so it will be revving to about 6500rpm. With 450Nm and 6500rpm in an online calculator ('cos I can't be bothered to "do the math" myself) I get 410HP.

@GarethS4 -
Is your car a B8.5? I assume you have not had a gearbox remap so your redline is still around 6500rpm?
Has your car been scanned for errors? I would hope your tuner has but there's no guarantee.
Are you 100% sure that it has an undersize s/c pulley? Has the diameter been measured?
Do you have any intake mods?
What fuel are you using?

Yes pulley has been changed as I bought it and was there when it was being fitted .
It's a b8 not an 8.5 and is manual not auto .
No errors showing at all.
No intake mods but he did a run with just the pipe pulled of the air box and sticking up over and it made I think he said 30 hp more somehow .car revs to over 7k no problem.i run it on super but not from the same place usually but have been known to put standard in also .def only super in it yesterday for the runs.he said it was 350 or something lb ft if that's correct which I done online to be around 505.

 

[GarethS4]

This was one run.it means nothing to me at all.could you comment

 

[arad85]

That looks really strange as a set of curves and I don't understand what the two are that are very similar shaped.

I'd expect (although can't guarantee) the one that is peaking low down is torque, whilst the ones that keep rising are horsepower. An S4 torque curve should be way flatter than that and the hp curve should go up way quicker. As an example, take a look here: http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/ecu_upgrade_30tfsi_b8s4.html The graph half way down the page shows a much flatter torque curve (solid white line) and more hp at the top end (which is a by product of the flatter torque). Given your picture, I'd expect it to feel very quick at low down rpm but feel quite flat beyond about 3-3.5k rpm. To be honest, that looks more like the plot I'd expect out of a small engined turbo car (shape rather than absolute values).

I'll stick to my original recommendation: I'd pay for a known decent tuner - either MRC (Banbury in Oxfordshire)/Unicorn (in Stockport) if close or an APR dealer if neither are close by. APR will be more expensive than the boutique tuners though.

 

[GarethS4]

I'm Thinking that I'm very confused here with these figures.the man said that 350 lb ft is at wheels .is that right or am I talking balls.is my car figures he is telling me maybe 407. @wheels and 350lb @ wheels also.
I'm sorry I have no idea how this works but is the figures other people talking about of 480hp not at the wheels were mine is.??
Please someone explain how this works as in @crank / @wheels etc.

 

[GarethS4]

That looks really strange as a set of curves and I don't understand what the two are that are very similar shaped.

I'd expect (although can't guarantee) the one that is peaking low down is torque, whilst the ones that keep rising are horsepower. An S4 torque curve should be way flatter than that and the hp curve should go up way quicker. As an example, take a look here: http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/ecu_upgrade_30tfsi_b8s4.html The graph half way down the page shows a much flatter torque curve (solid white line) and more hp at the top end (which is a by product of the flatter torque). Given your picture, I'd expect it to feel very quick at low down rpm but feel quite flat beyond about 3-3.5k rpm. To be honest, that looks more like the plot I'd expect out of a small engined turbo car (shape rather than absolute values).

I'll stick to my original recommendation: I'd pay for a known decent tuner - either MRC (Banbury in Oxfordshire)/Unicorn (in Stockport) if close or an APR dealer if MRC are not close by. APR will be more expensive than the boutique tuners.

Sorry you replied as I was writing reply .

 

[GarethS4]

Mrc and the rest are 500 miles and a £350 boat trip away unfortunately or they would have done it from the start.

 

[arad85]

Your car engine develops power. If it is spinning without attaching it to a gear, it will develop a torque figure. That is, it will be able to apply a turning force at the end of the crank shaft and it is measured in lb ft (pound feet). Call that X lb ft. When you put that through a transmission, there is a loss as you have to overcome resistance from gearbox/bearings/gears etc... The X lb ft coming off the engine is reduced when it gets to the wheels due to the losses, so it becomes Y lb ft at the wheels. These are the two measurements we are talking about.

Any rolling dyno measures the wheel values, not the engine values. The "raw" figures are the wheel values as that is what the dyno measures. Knowing the characteristics of the car, you can estimate crank values based on the wheel values. Horsepower is just a multiplication of rpm x the torque value, so is directly proportional to torque and engine speed.

My dyno is 10% higher at the crank vs the wheels. As I said, I'd be more worried about the shape of the curve - I'd expect the curve that is peaky low down to be flatter and higher at the top rpms. That would lead to more horsepower up through the rev range.

 

[arad85]

Ahh yes.. NI. TBH, I'd try an APR dealer in NI: http://www.goapr.co.uk/dealer/

 

[GarethS4]

Your car engine develops power. If it is spinning without attaching it to a gear, it will develop a torque figure. That is, it will be able to apply a turning force at the end of the crank shaft and it is measured in lb ft (pound feet). Call that X lb ft. When you put that through a transmission, there is a loss as you have to overcome resistance from gearbox/bearings/gears etc... The X lb ft coming off the engine is reduced when it gets to the wheels due to the losses, so it becomes Y lb ft at the wheels. These are the two measurements we are talking about.

Any rolling dyno measures the wheel values, not the engine values. The "raw" figures are the wheel values as that is what the dyno measures. Knowing the characteristics of the car, you can estimate crank values based on the wheel values. Horsepower is just a multiplication of rpm x the torque value, so is directly proportional to torque and engine speed.

My dyno is 10% higher at the crank vs the wheels. As I said, I'd be more worried about the shape of the curve - I'd expect the curve that is peaky low down to be flatter and higher at the top rpms. That would lead to more horsepower up through the rev range.

Firstly thank you for that info.i will stick to driving trucks for now .so basically your saying that my car at 407 is approx 70hp lower than most other stage 2 cars at the wheel.
Also what would cause the graph to be incorrect for what you would be looking for ..any ideas.

 

[arad85]

Firstly thank you for that info.i will stick to driving trucks for now .so basically your saying that my car at 407 is approx 70hp lower than most other stage 2 cars at the wheel.
Also what would cause the graph to be incorrect for what you would be looking for ..any ideas.

No, we don't know whether that is wheel or crank on that graph, so don't know if you are a bit different or a lot different. What I am saying is the curve that has a big peak around 3k rpm and then falls off 4-4.5k rpm is strange looking curve for a 3.0T supercharged engine. I'd expect that to be much flatter. See the attached dyno graph and look at the shape of the solid black line (torque) and red line (power). Then look at the dotted lines which are the before figures. This is not my graph, just one I googled BTW but it shows the shape of the curves I'd expect to see. It makes me suspicious that the tuner actually knows what he is doing...

How were your graphs measured? On a 4 wheel rolling road?

Also, as @Dippy mentioned. What fuel was it tuned on - mine is tuned to Tesco Momentum which is 99 RON. The only other petrol I should use in it is Shell VMax. Anything else and the tuning is out and I'm down on power (about 40hp at max evidently). Did Mr Tuner mention that to you?

As a PS, since you have a 2012, you don't have the CREC-based engine. You should have a wider choice of tuners - Revo should also have something suitable.

 

[arad85]

PS2: Look at Archies posts below your thread on here ("ECU price" and "Can't remap") to see what can happen with a tuner that doesn't quite know exactly what they are doing. He appears to have a "locked" ECU for the moment.

 

[Dippy]

Yes pulley has been changed as I bought it and was there when it was being fitted .
It's a b8 not an 8.5 and is manual not auto .
No errors showing at all.
No intake mods but he did a run with just the pipe pulled of the air box and sticking up over and it made I think he said 30 hp more somehow .car revs to over 7k no problem.i run it on super but not from the same place usually but have been known to put standard in also .def only super in it yesterday for the runs.he said it was 350 or something lb ft if that's correct which I done online to be around 505.

Thanks. As @arad85 noted, the best figures are being obtained with 99RON fuel. There is some sh*t fuel about so there's no guarantee that your super was 97RON, but it may also have been diluted by some of the 95RON that would have been in the tank when you filled. For me, this and the fact that you are using OEM air intake should account for lower performance figures.

This was one run.it means nothing to me at all.could you comment

This confirms that the peak power is at nearly 7k rpm so it isn't the B8.5 s-tronic limitation that I had assumed. There are two power curves and the lower one has a peak of just under 300bhp. If this is stock WHP then that would be truly excellent and you wouldn't have felt the need to start this thread. But if it's CHP then it's about 300PS which is very low for a car spec'd at 333PS and B8s have consistently been higher. So I'm left uncertain. Looking at the remap power curve you get 393.8bhp (400PS). I got 410PS at the wheels on my S5 and I am definitely not complaining about the power. On this basis (unless you have very high expectations) we should assume that yours is calculated CHP. But where did the 407 figure come from?

Now to the torque curve (and BTW @arad85 - it is just a matter of graph scaling why you were unsure which line was which). It is consistent with the higher power curve so let's assume that the peak of around 375lbft is crank which is 508Nm. This is at about 3100rpm and then the torque falls rather rapidly. This does not match what we see for other tuned cars where the torque peaks nearer the 4000-4500rpm mark and tails off more slowly.

I'm Thinking that I'm very confused here with these figures.the man said that 350 lb ft is at wheels .is that right or am I talking balls.is my car figures he is telling me maybe 407. @wheels and 350lb @ wheels also.
I'm sorry I have no idea how this works but is the figures other people talking about of 480hp not at the wheels were mine is.??
Please someone explain how this works as in @crank / @wheels etc.

There's no reference point on your graph at 350lbft so I'm not sure why that figure has been quoted. From my argument above I have to assume that your graph is for crank.

I remember that MRC did a tune for someone who wanted the car to run on 95RON (due to the benefit of discounted fuel) but in searching for it I found this one. You can see the uprated filter added 8PS and the fuel another 16PS. The fact that your tuner saw a jump of 30WHP when removing the air filter just shows how restrictive it is. So I recommend that you get yourself a performance intake kit, run through a few tanks of either Tesco Momentum or Shell V-power and then go back for a retest.

 

[GarethS4]

I have spent the day looking for an intake but don't k ow which one to go for .that graph was one of quite a few that was done yesterday whilst they played about with it .i will get another run in a couple of weeks and ask exactly what is what. unfortunately in Ni we don't have momentum or v power fuel. Super is the best you can get .

 

[arad85]

Personally, I'm more worried about the shape of the curve (@Dippy, I was confused as I was expecting to see a torque curve more like ours...). To me that suggests a tune which is less than optimal and will probably drive accordingly.

 

[arad85]

... unless this is an "in progress" curve.

 

[GarethS4]

I have to say that I have not had a single bit of bother ,no missing ,dash lights ,nothing at all wrong .i am coming from a well tuned turbo car to the s4 but I have never been very impressed with the performance.A friend who is well into his cars has always said it would walk around my last car but I just can't feel it .am I expecting way to much after having a serious love for turbo cars previously to this and just don't realise the true performance of the s4 .i know it is very linear and my chum has stated that it nearly feels like it's pulling the tyres of itself with the amount of torque .his words not mine .i will give it another couple weeks and see if I can get it serviced ,it's due now at 46k miles and get myself an intake also as he did say it made as I posted earlier 30 or so more on Dino with hose unclipped briefly .
Any recommendations on which type to get or would a filter replacement be ok .
I'm not looking to set the 1/4 record or anything lol ,just want to know that my car is as good as it can be .

 

[ruairi83]

I have to say that I have not had a single bit of bother ,no missing ,dash lights ,nothing at all wrong .i am coming from a well tuned turbo car to the s4 but I have never been very impressed with the performance.A friend who is well into his cars has always said it would walk around my last car but I just can't feel it .am I expecting way to much after having a serious love for turbo cars previously to this and just don't realise the true performance of the s4 .i know it is very linear and my chum has stated that it nearly feels like it's pulling the tyres of itself with the amount of torque .his words not mine .i will give it another couple weeks and see if I can get it serviced ,it's due now at 46k miles and get myself an intake also as he did say it made as I posted earlier 30 or so more on Dino with hose unclipped briefly .
Any recommendations on which type to get or would a filter replacement be ok .
I'm not looking to set the 1/4 record or anything lol ,just want to know that my car is as good as it can be .

The place where you got it mapped is also an APR dealer.

Ryan knows his stuff tho.

 

[Dippy]

@GarethS4 - what was your last car? Chances are I won't know enough to compare but you never know. I came from a stage 2 B5 S4 which made about 315bhp/560Nm. Especially since it was significantly lighter than my B8 S5, the torque difference was noticeable. However I personally prefer the more linear response of the supercharger, and especially the s-tronic gearbox (I was never great at 'performance' manual gear changes), and so overall I felt that my stock S5 was a match for my tuned S4. Now that my S5 is tuned it is in a different league (whilst I still have hopes that I might get more out of it in the future, right now my S5's performance is probably at the limit of my driving competence).

I have no doubt that an intake kit will help you. This needs to be both a replacement air pipe and a high flow filter. Mine was done by MRC so they used an 034 Motorsports air pipe but I don't actually know whose air filter they used. Revo and APR both do goo kits, especially if you like things like carbon fibre covers (doesn't interest me). If as @ruairi83 noted your tuner is an APR dealer then makes sense to have an APR kit. No offence but if "Ryan knows his stuff" then I am a bit surprised that Ryan didn't already recommend intake changes if this is a stage 2 (with pulley) tune.

Sorry, but if you can't get 99RON in NI then you're not going to see the 'headline' power levels that you see listed. Octane is important. You might want to look into whether the cost of using octane booster is worth the effect it can give.