Its turning intoo a track car ....

as an non expert bystander / lurker this "page 2" is discussing the issue with the cracked relentless manifold - not the power from the turbo?

OR

is the issue that the manifold cracks because the K04 / K04 frame hybrids cause so much heat / vibration / stress that the manifold cracks whereas in actual fact a bigger turbo will not stress the manifold for the same power?

I am not trying to stir - but am interested :)

--- edit ---

The reason I mention this is in another post a GT30 is mentioned rather than TTE / ATE Hybrid because on actuator pressure they make the same power as maxed out hybrid.
 
Madmax199 said:
I disagree there! There is a market for big turbo, but there is also a market for stock or small frame turbos. The choise depends on use and budget. Big turbos are not always the answer. I race and compete with my car (audi TT) in all sorts of racing in the US. Because I do sprints, hillclimb, and circuit racing, I need a turbo that can shine in all 3 disciplines. A hybrid is the best option for that. 410 AWHP/365 AWHP (that's 500 BTQ and 450 BHP for you guys) on a safe conservative tune which is more than enough for my 1,130 KG TT. These numbers on my hybrid matches what many "big turbos" make and I don't have to wait for power for days when looking to explode out of a corner. Each job has its tool, turbo selection is not immune to that cliche.

My setup is more than reliable and has been for years (I know the "but how reliable is it" comment is coming). I also abuse it more than most since I compete regularly at a national level in SCCA racing in the US. I know people love to hate on small turbos and hybrids, but when done properly they are a viable option to bridge the gap between stock and large frame turbos.

Max
Click to expand...

All i read when i was considering hybrid was about heat issues and manifold issues
Yet i went hybrid anyway and suffered manifold and heat issues

If i had my time again id go for a big turbo that didnt need to run so much boost.
Not so much heat.
And of course you can buy a better quality manifold ( which would stand better chance with less heat anyway)
Of course that doesnt mean all set ups will have issues. But its commin sense that a big turbo running less temps willbhave an easiernlife than a small turbo rilunning higher heat and boost.
 
daz-20vt said:
All i read when i was considering hybrid was about heat issues and manifold issues
Yet i went hybrid anyway and suffered manifold and heat issues

If i had my time again id go for a big turbo that didnt need to run so much boost.
Not so much heat.
And of course you can buy a better quality manifold ( which would stand better chance with less heat anyway)
Of course that doesnt mean all set ups will have issues. But its commin sense that a big turbo running less temps willbhave an easiernlife than a small turbo rilunning higher heat and boost.
Click to expand...

lol - I think you answered my question without actually answering my question - thanks :)
 
Stuart B said:
as an non expert bystander / lurker this "page 2" is discussing the issue with the cracked relentless manifold - not the power from the turbo?

OR

is the issue that the manifold cracks because the K04 / K04 frame hybrids cause so much heat / vibration / stress that the manifold cracks whereas in actual fact a bigger turbo will not stress the manifold for the same power?

I am not trying to stir - but am interested :)

--- edit ---

The reason I mention this is in another post a GT30 is mentioned rather than TTE / ATE Hybrid because on actuator pressure they make the same power as maxed out hybrid.
Click to expand...


Hi Stuart.
Relentless are on their 4th unsuccesful attempt at a k04 manifold.
Chinafolds are only available to buy and have seperatly ported at huge expense.
And for whatbis on the most part a sub 330bhp set up.
Buy a bigger set up that runs cooler and it should be more reliable.
Power is irrelevant here.
 
By the time you pay for everything inc rods etc the extra cost to go big turbo is
A. Sod all
B. 100% worth it
 
I totally agree that big turbo running actuator pressure will easily run hybrid power and not even be trying.
It'll be running cooler, it won't be as temptemental as Bill says these turbos are worse than your lass for being a nightmare of they don't get their own way.

With the likes of Bills mapping skills and as Tuffty says drive them properly and a big turbo won't be laggy and won't be undrivable.

But

I've had the car 6 years. For the moment I've went the route I went.
The point in my life I'm at I can't afford a big turbo, a custom manifold and custom down pipe. Buying houses etc etc

But

For the future the engines prepped. It's got the rods and it's got the inconel exhaust valves.
A valve Spring kit and inlet valves and she'll be ready to take a big turbo.

I've done some thinking, and had a bit of a **** moment this morning.

JNL have successfully ported a china fold to Badger spec.
They've said they will do 20 more at £250.
I've bought a china fold off Aliexpress. £180 delivered.
I'm on the list as one of the 20 that JNL will port.
I've Sussed and confirmed with Bill I'm going to need :

3 X M10 65mm long pitch 1.5 manifold bolts
Three pairs of Nord Lock washers

All the above readily available on eBay.

I've got a super size copper gasket on the car.
I think il sand it down and re use it. It's copper so should be fine.

That gives me a fit and forget exhaust manifold that's been PROVEN to flow and PROVEN not to crack.

Il use the new Pro4 and the Cracked Pro4 as paper weights untill I decide to sell them or whatever.

The cars off the road now untill all this is sorted, but it's not going anywhere I love it too much.

In the meantime, in the three track days I've done, il throw my 2p in and confirm the S3 chassis isn't the best for track.

It's going to need coilovers (decent ones at that) as a priority next year.

And more fuel to the fire...... Me and my brother are saving to buy a Clio 172/182 for cheap track fun. Project for us to do together, joint ownership and gives us an excuse for weekends away without the wives.

There's millions out there with belts done. We could go and buy one tonight but need our cash for house deposits.

For now.... Scotty over and out.
Il keep this up to date as my manifolds (lol) arrive
 
There's been a batch lately That was porous.

I bought mine off a seller on Aliexpress with good feedback.

We shall see what it looks like when it arrives
 
Big turbo is the way forward. Trust me bite the bullet and do it. Sell the Pro4 to the fans on Facebook there's always one pleb who'll buy it.
 
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daz-20vt said:
Snowy i dont get the impression you are bright.
Click to expand...

lol

Stuart B said:
as an non expert bystander / lurker this "page 2" is discussing the issue with the cracked relentless manifold - not the power from the turbo?

OR

is the issue that the manifold cracks because the K04 / K04 frame hybrids cause so much heat / vibration / stress that the manifold cracks whereas in actual fact a bigger turbo will not stress the manifold for the same power?

I am not trying to stir - but am interested :)

--- edit ---

The reason I mention this is in another post a GT30 is mentioned rather than TTE / ATE Hybrid because on actuator pressure they make the same power as maxed out hybrid.
Click to expand...


relentless mani's crack because they are made from crappy metal

Its that simple
 
Nope, but they crack basically supporting the weight of the turbo

Its a shame really the K418 doesn't come with vband or T25 option
 
snowy said:
Nope, but they crack basically supporting the weight of the turbo

Its a shame really the K418 doesn't come with vband or T25 option
Click to expand...

So temp is a factor clearly.
 
Not really

The levels of heat produced by hybrid turbos is well known the folks behind the pro4

Its upto them to make a product which can deal with it

All other mani's have to deal with the same heat levels

Afterall chinafolds can be made reliable, they're not exactly quality items
 
daz-20vt said:
All i read when i was considering hybrid was about heat issues and manifold issues
Yet i went hybrid anyway and suffered manifold and heat issues

If i had my time again id go for a big turbo that didnt need to run so much boost.
Not so much heat.
And of course you can buy a better quality manifold ( which would stand better chance with less heat anyway)
Of course that doesnt mean all set ups will have issues. But its commin sense that a big turbo running less temps willbhave an easiernlife than a small turbo rilunning higher heat and boost.
Click to expand...

Heat issues and manifold issues are for people that don't know how to build cars. If you don't know what you're doing you will have issues with any turbos big or small.

Compression process produces heat, turbine exhaust management produces heat... that's any turbochargers. It's all about knowing how to manage the heat generated. My EGTs are stable at 750-770 deg Cel -- my IAT is on point -- I have zero timing correction flirting with MBT. So what is the problem with heat that you're trying to generally pin down on every hybrid build?

As for the powerband I see mentioned somewhere in the tthread, there is nothing that tuning can do to give a big turbo an hybrid powerband (safe changing the displacement). At the same token, there is nothing that you can do to make a hybrid flow loke a BT up top. You have to pick your poison based on your intended use.

I make the following numbers at the wheels on a conservative 27 psi. The turbo is not stretched by any means and takes it all day in track conditions. No heat issues... nothing. You're not going to find many BT 1.8t (not stroked) that gives that kind of TQ that early.

image_2.jpg
 
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Madmax199 said:
Heat issues and manifold issues are for people that don't know how to build cars. If you don't know what you're doing you will have issues with any turbos big or small.

Compression process produces heat, turbine exhaust management produces heat... that's any turbochargers. It's all about knowing how to manage the heat generated. My EGTs are stable at 750-770 deg Cel -- my IAT is on point -- I have zero timing correction flirting with MBT. So what is the problem with heat that you're trying to generally pin down on every hybrid build?

As for the powerband I see mentioned somewhere in the tthread, there is nothing that tuning can do to give a big turbo an hybrid powerband (safe changing the displacement). At the same token, there is nothing that you can do to make a hybrid flow loke a BT up top. You have to pick your poison based on your intended use.

I make the following numbers at the wheels on a conservative 27 psi. The turbo is not stretched by any means and takes it all day in track conditions. No heat issues... nothing. You're not going to find many BT 1.8t (not stroked) that gives that kind of TQ that early.

image_2.jpg
Click to expand...


Im talking specifically k04 hybrid.

As for your comment about manifold issues itbis extremely well known there are not very many reliable options for the k04 hybrid.

Im not saying hybrids are no good. But paul is at the high end of what his can take.
He could potentially be hetter off with a big turbo thats not flat out over his current set up.

What set up do you have?
 
daz-20vt said:
Im talking specifically k04 hybrid.

As for your comment about manifold issues itbis extremely well known there are not very many reliable options for the k04 hybrid.

Im not saying hybrids are no good. But paul is at the high end of what his can take.
He could potentially be hetter off with a big turbo thats not flat out over his current set up.

What set up do you have?
Click to expand...

I have a k04 hybrid with a Chinafold I ported and modified to run externally wastegated.
 
Are you seriously saying you have 365bhp at the wheels with a k04 hybrid?
 
daz-20vt said:
Are you seriously saying you have 365bhp at the wheels with a k04 hybrid?
Click to expand...

Yes, and that's on my conservative circuit tune at 27/28 psi (posted the dyno plot for you). I have a more explosive sprint and hillclimb tune at 30 psi that makes a little over 400 at the wheels.

image.jpeg
 
Madmax199 said:
I have a k04 hybrid with a Chinafold I ported and modified to run externally wastegated.
Click to expand...

Madmax199 said:
Yes, and that's on my conservative circuit tune at 27/28 psi (posted the dyno plot for you). I have a more explosive sprint and hillclimb tune at 30 psi that makes a little over 400 at the wheels.

image.jpeg
Click to expand...

Who mapped this?
 
How didninknow that was coming pmsl

Enjoy your "400" atw
 
daz-20vt said:
How didninknow that was coming pmsl

Enjoy your "400" atw
Click to expand...

You can try to be funny and laugh all you want because the proof and answers provided are not fitting your narrative that these numbers can't be achieved by a hybrid. BTW, just because you need a tuner in the UK to do everything for you, doesn't mean that's the case everywhere. I tune my car using the prototype unit of the AEM infinity standalone ECU with haldex integration (it was developed on my car). Thank you, I have been for a long time, but will continue enjoying my "400" atw!

image.jpg

image_11.jpg
image_14.jpg
 
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Nice one paul.
Any idea when its being ported?
 
Had a message off JNL Racing yesterday to say I'm on the list for porting, so once it arrives Il give them a call and get it shipped down to them for them to do what they need to do!

From what I guess, the porting isnt a two minute job so its going to be a few weeks before the China fold is ready and I even begin to think about the task of removing the Pro4. My VW tech mate is doing it, were thinking strip the whole lot at the top, and the drivers side driveshaft for access?

Anyone removed a pro4 without the head coming off?
 
daz-20vt said:
Are you seriously saying you have 365bhp at the wheels with a k04 hybrid?
Click to expand...

You have to remember that @Madmax199 has E85 over there, it changes the game completely.
Also, the discrepancy between US and UK should always be recognised, for whatever reasons that is, it's just the way it is. It doesn't take away from either parties success with these things


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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superkarl said:
You have to remember that @Madmax199 has E85 over there, it changes the game completely.
Also, the discrepancy between US and UK should always be recognised, for whatever reasons that is, it's just the way it is. It doesn't take away from either parties success with these things


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Ahhh that makes more sense.
Cheers.

He was talking american bhp
I was talking actual bhp!!
 
This begs the question, what in the world is American BHP and actual BHP?

On one hand everyone says that the thouroughness of the build, the selection of parts, the supporting mods, make or break a hybrid setup. On the other hand, it must be the "E85" or "American HP" that explain the figures. So the thouroughness of my build counts for nothing. The irony (or should I say delusion)!

The E85 excuse can be dismissed right off the bat because similar numbers are achieved with WMI. So it must the magical hand that holds dynos back when they're in the UK.
 
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Go back to post #74
 
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ha ha ha epic fail I was sitting here hang on Im sure someones mentioned this before! Fail. Sorry my bad. Ive got ****** manifolds coming out my **** at the moment Im sick of thinking about them!


It seems that when done correctly the Chinafold can be reliable and flow well for power. I wonder if the chinafold will unleash any more ponies on my car? Or drive different ?
 
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