Off to have the brakes fixed

[MBK]

I did wonder if the Audi solution would simply be to fit softer material. I had a good chat with Klauster at the Ruthin meet about how that worked out on the RS4. It seems the original pad on the RS4 was quite aggressive (no squeal problems though) and wore the discs quickly. The Audi solution was a softer pad compound which given the weight of the car and stopping power required meant the pads then wore out quickly but the life of the disc was extended. It's all choices and engineering tolerances but John will be able to explain that much better than me. My totally unscientific experience suggests that below 1200kg (S2000, R26.R, Turbo 2000, Type R etc) brakes hold up well but once the weight goes up braking becomes an issue and all the 1400kg+ (Evo, STi, RS3) cars I've owned have needed a brake upgrade for any track work - but never just for the road.

The standard RS3 pads and discs are great for the road, I can't imagine you'd ever need an upgrade for just road use, no way you'd get the heat into them that you do on track with repeated big stops. The Pagid RS4 pads are a great alternative when you do need replacement pads because from the right supplier (speak to RS3-KEL) they are cheaper than the Audi Brembo pads.

I'll also be adding the rear brake disc and pad upgrade soon and will let you know how that goes.

 

[45bvtc]

Hey Mark, how do you now feel about the 'slotted' rotors?

My experience with EBC drilled/slotted rotors is good but with a side effect I didn't like i.e., vibration (chopping from the slots) under heavy braking…

You'll not get this with current Audi/Brembo drilled-rotors - as you know.

Truth now, how do you feel about those beasties now, several K's on 'em?

Me: I'm well up for the Pagid RS3's… eventually. But not sure about the rotors for road use.

As for the Audi/Brembo fix? It's just pasta, pasta, pasta...



PS: as I understand it th reason for slots and holes in brake discs is 2-fold: 1) to allow the gas build up under the brake pad to escape, and 2) to continually clean the brake pad surface... however, I'm sure a Brembo expert (who can't resolve brake squeal) will be able to give us loads more reasons!!!

 

[MBK]

I've used the slotted disc design on every car since I got more serious about track days so I'm biased - I love them! You are right though there is more vibration through the pedal under hard braking, you can feel the grooves working, and a little more noise too (a whirring noise, not squealing I'm glad to say!). 90% of the time on road you'd never know. I like the extra feedback because you know when you've got them working well on track. On the upside the initial bite on the disc is much improved and they resist fade well for 10-12 laps (3-4 laps on the standard pads/discs). The pad dust washes out of the grooves easily too after hard use.

I prefer the grooves because there is less chance of a disc cracking as sometimes the holes cause a weakness and minor cracks. All the aftermarket grooved discs like EBC (S2000), DBA (Scooby), Performance Friction (Evo) and Brembo (standard on the R26.R) have been great for resisting warping and stopping pad glazing.

That said I'd only upgrade to grooves for track work, if it was just for road I'd stick with the standard drilled brembo discs or maybe upgrade to the AP/Loba drilled discs if the mood took me!

I don't know why (pad compound?) but those standard Brembo drilled disc holes seemed to become blocked more quickly than any others I've seen.

 

[45bvtc]

Hey Mark: OK, I think we're on the same page.

I do not have an issue with the standard Audi/Brembo disc as I've not found they block-up in general road use but then again, I've only done 4500-miles from new. So I'd stick with the standard brake disc for road use.

The Audi/Brembo pad? THIS I think this IS the culprit! I do believe the Audi/Brembo pad is oversize for the caliper aperture, said this before… and that this is where 'alternative' pads score as they are of a reduced O/A size.

But I'm now of the view to let Audi/Brembo get on with it…

The standard brake disc with a Pagid pad will be my next venture, though not as yet as I'm content with my modified original PLUS self-adhesive anti-squeal shim set-up.

And I rarely have a Misano red Audi RS3 on my tail anyway…

 

[Ubbs]

Hey Mark: OK, I think we're on the same page.

I do not have an issue with the standard Audi/Brembo disc as I've not found they block-up in general road use but then again, I've only done 4500-miles from new. So I'd stick with the standard brake disc for road use.

The Audi/Brembo pad? THIS I think this IS the culprit! I do believe the Audi/Brembo pad is oversize for the caliper aperture, said this before… and that this is where 'alternative' pads score as they are of a reduced O/A size.

But I'm now of the view to let Audi/Brembo get on with it…

The standard brake disc with a Pagid pad will be my next venture, though not as yet as I'm content with my modified original PLUS self-adhesive anti-squeal shim set-up.

And I rarely have a Misano red Audi RS3 on my tail anyway…

next time I'm in burntwood at my sisters you'd better watch out for me!

 

[S3DBW]

Is this brake fix going to be rolled out to all RS3 owners as part of a general product update/recall, or is it only for those who have specifically had problems? While not wishing to tempt fate, I am probably one of the few who have experienced no issues whatsoever with the brakes and working on the old adage "if it aint broke!". So just wondered if the next time it goes in for a service, I find that they have replaced the front brakes?

 

[Mr_Freeze]

Its not a recall as its not classed as a safety issue.

You will have to complain before they will issue the fix.

 

[Ubbs]

Mines in tomorrow for the fix and a service.

 

[45bvtc]

Its not a recall as its not classed as a safety issue.

You will have to complain before they will issue the fix.

Gentlemen (and ladies): I am given to understand that the "improvement" to the AUDI RS3 braking system will be applied to ALL cars, and here is the Update Code detail:

Update-Code: 47i6
Released: 2. April 2013
Vehicules: RS3 und TTRS, alle MJ
Countires: all
Description: on complaint
a) brake caliper and pads: 8P0 698 996
b) brake disks: 8P0 615 301 B


In addition, I have been writing to Audi throughout 2012 after resolving my own brake squeal issue and follows is the reply to me from Mr. Craig Westwood (Audi UK Executive Office) when answering my request for me to speak with an Audi Technical Engineer who had some understanding of brakes and the causes of brake squeal… as I have!

21/05/2013 15:35:25 GMT Daylight Time

"RE: RS3 - actions being undertaken as I write:

We have released a product improvement for the RS 3, which involves a modification to the braking system, however we are in the process of securing the relevant parts. We anticipate that they will become available within a couple of weeks and once this has been confirmed it will be made available across our Centre Network."

Please note that I've had numerous conversations with Craig Westwood all of which have been totally amicable though resulting in little or no action - as the resolution of the brake-squeal issue isn't really within his jurisdiction.

Craig Westwood is a Customer Relations Manager (Digital Communications) at the Audi UK Executive Office in Milton Keynes (and Leeds).

So, go to your local Audi dealer, reference the Update Code 47i6, and complain…

 

[45bvtc]

And here's the actual e-mail:

View attachment 16736

 

[S3 AD]

Well I have finally got a call from my dealer to say there is a very large box been shipped in from germany containing fromt calipers, pads and discs. I just about managed to not reply ''about f$%^*^ time!''

Any how booked in for Thursday for the change over, how ever after reading that some people squeel is still present after the 'fix' it seems like I may be again applying the fix master minded by John on to another set of pads. I currently only get a slight squeal in cold dry conditions after adding the shims to the existing set up.

Seems like the only benifit to this maybe 10k miles worth of free brake pad and disk wear. When I had my first service I was told front pads were 30% worn.

 

[45bvtc]

Well I have finally got a call from my dealer to say there is a very large box been shipped in from germany containing fromt calipers, pads and discs. I just about managed to not reply ''about f$%^*^ time!''

Any how booked in for Thursday for the change over, how ever after reading that some people squeel is still present after the 'fix' it seems like I may be again applying the fix master minded by John on to another set of pads. I currently only get a slight squeal in cold dry conditions after adding the shims to the existing set up.

Seems like the only benifit to this maybe 10k miles worth of free brake pad and disk wear. When I had my first service I was told front pads were 30% worn.

Try to keep hold of your OLD/current brake pads Andy, just in case; you'll not be allowed to hold onto anything else!

 

[Ubbs]

Fix has been applied to my car today along with its first service, can't report anything yet other than a very spongy pedal!

 

[45bvtc]

Fix has been applied to my car today along with its first service, can't report anything yet other than a very spongy pedal!

You're not the first to report that Ubbs but please be patient as ALL of the others have "firmed-up" quite quickly... soft pads I'd guess!

You're (and others) view on excess brake dust with the 'revised' brake pads would be interesting...

 

[JonnyG]

Mines booked in for two weeks time .... I wasn't in a rush (having had the 45bvtc fix for the squeal already) but Audi UK rang after shipping the parts to my dealer and asked me to get it booked in, as someone else wanted the parts

However I have also suffered the wet weather delayed braking on a few occasions and that to my mind is a safety feature (emergency stop on the motorway ....one second delay ..... CRASH !!), so I hope the fix will cure that ... nearly had a heart attack the first time I experienced it

The second time was in this late March weather ... great reassuring motorway journey spoilt by brake delay

 

[monkeyboy_marcus]

Mines booked in for two weeks time .... I wasn't in a rush (having had the 45bvtc fix for the squeal already) but Audi UK rang after shipping the parts to my dealer and asked me to get it booked in, as someone else wanted the parts

However I have also suffered the wet weather delayed braking on a few occasions and that to my mind is a safety feature (emergency stop on the motorway ....one second delay ..... CRASH !!), so I hope the fix will cure that ... nearly had a heart attack the first time I experienced it

The second time was in this late March weather ... great reassuring motorway journey spoilt by brake delay

Second update on wet weather braking, the last in May I think after about 500 miles on the new front brakes. Today on M25 in fairly heavy rain & patches of standing water, I tested the responsiveness of the brakes & long story short, found them (as previously) to have none of the delay previously experienced prior to the warranty replacement. Hope this proves to be the case for all.

 

[KKM]

Completed the Audi UK Customer complaint form at 11am, just had a call from them.......

They have ordered the parts (discs and callipers I believe) and they are being sent to my local Audi dealer for fitting within the next 10 days or so.

Very impressed with the CS response time.

Fingers crossed this will be the end to the SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEAL!!!!

 

[Ubbs]

Fix has been applied to my car today along with its first service, can't report anything yet other than a very spongy pedal!

My second observation is the callipers are smaller,

 

[S3 AD]

My brakes finally got changed today, I agree with the reports of a slighlt spongy pedal - certainly doesnt espire confidence like they used to. I am hoping this is temporary. The disk serface looks very different, tbh I dont think the calipers look any smaller but I could be wrong about that.

John, just on your advice I asked for the old pads back but got told a) they would be no good to me as the old pads will not fit the new caliper and b) once a part is identified as substandard it has to be tracked back to Germany and destroyed?!! I cant say I know enough to tell if this was to fob me off or not.

I'll be keeping an eye on the dust levels to.

I cant say if the squeel has gone or not as after fitting the shims I only seem to get the squeel in lower ambient temps, so it may be a while until I can make a valid comparrison.

At least its some sort of progress though. I can say Camberly Audi have been really sympathetic and helpful in getting to this stage - even if it did take 10 months and 10k miles, but this is Audi's fault not theres.

 

[Ubbs]

I have a very technical way of measuring the callipers, the detail brush I use to clean the inside of the rims with the old callipers it was very tight between the rim and calipers, it's the opposite with the new ones!

 

[45bvtc]

My second observation is the callipers are smaller,

I believe so as they changed the mounting also...

View attachment 16861

 

[S3 AD]

''I have a very technical way of measuring the callipers, the detail brush I use to clean the inside of the rims with the old callipers it was very tight between the rim and calipers, it's the opposite with the new ones! ''

This is much more scientific than me bending down and having a quick look so I stand corrected

 

[45bvtc]

My brakes finally got changed today, I agree with the reports of a slighlt spongy pedal - certainly doesnt espire confidence like they used to. I am hoping this is temporary. The disk serface looks very different, tbh I dont think the calipers look any smaller but I could be wrong about that.

John, just on your advice I asked for the old pads back but got told a) they would be no good to me as the old pads will not fit the new caliper and b) once a part is identified as substandard it has to be tracked back to Germany and destroyed?!! I cant say I know enough to tell if this was to fob me off or not.

I'll be keeping an eye on the dust levels to.

I cant say if the squeel has gone or not as after fitting the shims I only seem to get the squeel in lower ambient temps, so it may be a while until I can make a valid comparrison.

At least its some sort of progress though. I can say Camberly Audi have been really sympathetic and helpful in getting to this stage - even if it did take 10 months and 10k miles, but this is Audi's fault not theres.

Now that IS interesting Andy, and I believe true! Well done you!

I'll know more in September when my car is booked in for it's second service at Stafford Audi and modified; I will be checking ALL of the components removed and/or fitted, and that's just for pure self-interest as an automotive engineer fascinated by the causes and resolution of this particular annoyance.

I am aware of two cars having had the caliper change being delivered back to the owner with the original/old brake disc (8P0 615 301), and one of these cars having been sent back to Germany for modification and evaluation (and I do have the photos of that car to prove as the owner brought the car straight to me to see what had been done); so the new calipers with new pads do fit the old disc…

Dust, I believe the new pads do create more dust.

Surface finish on the disc: that's just a modern micro-finish grinding process that will soon wear off in say 800-miles.

Squeal on the new set-up: at least three owners have reported low speed brake squeal with the new set-up, but it's early days to conclude. My suggestion is/was to run the new brakes for a similar period as the originals before drawing any conclusion, the brake squeal may re-appear depending on driving practice (I've a list of some 40-cars and the mileages they first reported brake squeal).

I sincerely hope the issue has gone away, however, if not, I'll be returning to my own 'fix' and/or fitting an alternative pad.

One thing's for sure; I'll not be waiting for Audi to do it for me…

 

[45bvtc]

I have a very technical way of measuring the callipers, the detail brush I use to clean the inside of the rims with the old callipers it was very tight between the rim and calipers, it's the opposite with the new ones!

BRILLIANT! Just BRILLIANT!!

 

[P_G]

The calipers are the same size as I was OCD enough to measure them and my wheel woolly still has the same clearance issues between spoke and rim. The pads were always going to be softer, it is a compromise between the rock hard material on the OEM's and the soft Pagids they used on the RS4 Brembo set up which aids in eliminating squeel. 600 miles done on mine and no squeal in town or anywhere else and initial sponginess has gone as art of the bedding in process. There is more brake dust but decent wheel prep does not make that an issue.

 

[ColeyRS3]

Hello can anyone put my mind at ease as I had the front discs, calipers and pads changed yesterday and the passenger side looks different in there is a length of red cable/wire? on the outside edge of the caliper and none on the drivers side caliper that I can see.
I am a total novice in car mechanics.
passenger side.


driver side.

Cheers Coley

 

[45bvtc]

Brake pad wear sensor cable ColeyRS3, only fitted to the nearside front: stay cool...

 

[ColeyRS3]

Thanks 45bvtc I feel better now:icon_thumright:

 

[S3 AD]

My experience seems consistent with everyone else’s that have had the brake fix done, after 250 miles..... the squishy pedal is firming up but there does seem to be a lot more brake dust on the wheels

 

[elton121272]

My experience seems consistent with everyone else’s that have had the brake fix done, after 250 miles..... the squishy pedal is firming up but there does seem to be a lot more brake dust on the wheels

A fantastic fix (or at least a free renewal on wear and tear for the brake department).....even if the squeal does return. Still makes me wonder what the official view from Germany was - why all this in terms of cost, dealer labour and replacement parts when there appears to be some owners seeing the issue reoccur - surely that is what was being tested during this timely fix process?

Does make you think there was other reasons behind this fix such as the delay when in wet conditions that some reported that we aren't aware of - thoughts?

And if only Audi had went with shims and possibly new (softer) pads that weren't as tight in the calipers - the from day 1, when our very own resident master tech and already forum legend, 45bvtc, highlighted the issue, then I'm sure most owners would have been satisfied and now this level of fix could have been avoided - that is assuming our squeal fix remains purely as and is a 'cosmetic' one? Still all doesn't make sense to me.....its as if they have used a sledgehammer to crack the nut? Think about it, if this were a business - that you owned - you would be going M-E-N-T-A-L by now. I remember how I recorded the brake squeal in an underground car park and the audio sample was horrendous but equally 'perfect' and I sent this attachment every other day asking "how would you feel if this was the noise you experienced every day - even more so from the premium RS brand?"; "what would you do?"; "what would you expect?"; "how would you feel about your car, the product you bought, the aftersales experience, and now the customer care, towards your initial complaint....dating some many months ago and the subject line updating on each email?"

I sent the file in all possible formats and asked each time if anyone had listened to it.....got a few not compatible answers, but I persevered, and each time I had no update I asked - "remember that audio file - what would you do and how would you feel?"

Don't get me wrong I believe in fair play, so I suppose the next obvious Q is to those who have seen the dreaded squeal return - have you reported this back to your dealer? If so what was there response? And has the dealer acknowledged the squeal and taken up with Audi UK on your behalf?

I'd tend to say - bearing in mind I was given a full refund based purely on this brake issue - then surely if the issue returns after this fix, then technically everyone has a strong case with their dealer and Audi UK that, is at the very least worth pursuing as a matter of principle.

OR - I would suggest a non disclosure agreement whereby each owner registered with the complaint receives a £1.5k refund and them apply what they feel is a suitable remedial themselves - and if need be you can then pursue the MKB upgrade.

Sorry for the long winded reply, but as you can guess this squeal did ANNOY me somewhat and like most of you guys I am passionate about the RS3, so much so I would still testify this is the best car I have ever owned and offers no current competition that ticks all the boxes.

Cheers,
E

John - I feel you may need to come out of retirement to get this one resolved

 

[45bvtc]

I feel you may need to come out of retirement to get this one resolved

Thank you elton but I've gone as far as I'm going to go with Audi, see Post #170 above...

 

[Jamiekip]

Had mine swapped from the boot of my TTRS today (I run the daveb ap set up on the 8pots at the front and 4pots on the rear).
But for the record the calipers are the same dimensions as before. So if they sit differently in the wheel it's due to the carriers.
Didn't unwrap the discs.

 

[khoughton88]

very interesting read....

i have an s3 with rs3/ttrs setup and i'm glad that the old callipers fit the new discs & vice verser.
I've just ordered the 'new' discs as mine are warped (vibrations at motorway, sometimes and its NOT the wheels as braking makes the vibration worse)
im not sure which pads to go for either the pagid blues or DS 2500, recommendations will be greatly received.... please
im also wondering to install the "anti-vibration bobbin" or not, does anybody think this makes a difference?...what does it actually do? and does anybody know the part number, if it can bolted on? etc

I think i will fit the shims however. but on another note I've never ever had any squeaking from the brakes! I've done 10,000 miles plus now from mainly commuting traffic to driving in germany doing big stops from high speeds to county road blasts. but i did put a lot of copper grease on back of pads when fitting pads!

i have noticed however the delay in wet braking..... thats scary!!!! but i cant get that sorted unfortunately due to my car only being an S3 and not an RS and audi will NOT touch it.

Any advice I've tried to get off audi i get the usual...."we cant give you any information as this part is not for this car!!" Frustrating.

Any help will be Great..... Please, Please, Please

 

[elton121272]

very interesting read....

i have noticed however the delay in wet braking..... thats scary!!!! but i cant get that sorted unfortunately due to my car only being an S3 and not an RS and audi will NOT touch it.

Any help will be Great..... Please, Please, Please

If you're dealing with the same dealer as I was, you could potentially put an RS3 badge on the grill and tailgate and hey, you'll get the same upgrade as most of us ;-)

Seriously mate, other than the RS3, I considered my S3 SB BE as my second best and most practical car ever....she was Revo'd and milltek'd with the non resonated and woke up the neighbours each morning with just the ignition turn ;-)

If you need new discs - then depending on Audi's cost for RS3 ones, I'd personally go for aftermarket ones like MKB has done. Same with pads mate. And considering the expense I'd also do the shim fix anyway and assuming the pads sit snug, but not too tight, I'd say you may end up having the perfect compromise that all RS3 owners here wish.

Cheers,
E

 

[Gops]

If only they made an rs3 in the 8L! arches would be crazy!

 

[khoughton88]

Thanks for reply.

I have asked my local dealer and the said.."we can't touch the car sir, also with the modifications you have done, it invalidates any warranty".... Blar blar blar.

I only live down the road from Dave brown and I asked about his 362mm ap upgrade and as much as love to have that setup I can't afford it at the min.

 

[Kelza]

Gops nothing is impossible ,statllers are making a mk5 golf/rs3

 

[MBK]

very interesting read....

I've just ordered the 'new' discs as mine are warped (vibrations at motorway, sometimes and its NOT the wheels as braking makes the vibration worse)
im not sure which pads to go for either the pagid blues or DS 2500, recommendations will be greatly received.... please

i have noticed however the delay in wet braking..... thats scary!!!!

Firstly I'd highly recommend the Pagid blues, the extra initial bite on the disc, both dry and wet, is a real improvement it's not snatchy just more immediate. The pad dust also washes nicely out of the disc after hard use.

Just an attempt to be helpful - are you sure the vibration is warped discs? If the vibration starts at a certain motorway speed but becomes worse when you brake, then goes away again below a certain speed that could be wheel balancing. Let me guess the vibration starts at about 78 mph, stops again at mid 86 mph and braking anywhere between these two speeds causes more wheel vibration - if so it's likely balancing. If the vibration continues braking to a stop and is much worse when the discs are hot (not on the M'way, discs are usually cold on there) then yes it's probably a warped disc.

Luckily I've never experienced the wet braking delay and I've used my RS3 on a wet track day, wet handling circuit / car limits day and even a very wet go kart track. I'm based in Wales the roads are wet most of the time and again, no delay. Next time the road is wet and clear of traffic give the pedal a proper push, I suspect you will find no delay at all just a very sharp stop!

 

[khoughton88]

Hi MKB

i think pagid blues prob my best option. Dave brown also suggested them. He said they a great pad.

With regards to vibration. I've been doin little tests and its never the same speeds pressure of pedal etc. it varys

its much worse first thing in a morning. For example... At the end if my street to goes to a 60 limit so first thing in morning withing a minute & no braking I'm at 60mph the vibration is worse. At first I thought its because tyres been sat for 14 hours or so.... But if I get brakes warm and do some big stops 60-0 it gets much much better.

If I'm on a motorway the vibration at 70 (cough cough) is only there for 5min till I use the brakes then it goes. & slowly comes back. It's also much worse if I have the wiper stalk set to automatic & it starts to rain (somebody told me that if this is case the car 'massages' the brakes so they bite when wet)

ive come to the conclusion, im not mechanic just guesssing after other people problems & lots of reading... that the pads are clamping the discs too much as when I'm not braking as they get hot (not red hot, but warm) even if I'm just driving along with no braking. Now it could be down to the master cylinder as the rs3 is 17% or 15% (cant rememver) larger then the s3 to accommodate the 4pots. So the pads arent releasing off the disc properly or the pads have become jammed in the caliper.

Another thing that makes me think its the discs is if car left for a week and disc get rust build up when I drive it for first mile it sounds like pads scratching but pulsing if you will the faster I drive the faster the pulse. As if it was a bent disc. The same happens through light braking & coming to a stop. It pulses a little. It ciuld be build up of crap on disc but I try keep them clean as much as possible.

And.... I get exactly the same on my winter set of alloys.

Re wet braking..... I just find a delay in low pressure braking. If I brake hard then it does stop but slowing down on motorway for instance, with very light braking hardly noting happens for a second then... Boom you feel the bite & slow much quicker with same pedal pressure.


The car is going in to ads In Preston in a few weeks to have new discs, pads, shims on & also going to upgrade the Master cylinder to 25.4mm same as all you rs3 drivers. Oh and also fit the cooling ducts & remove the dust sheiks as they don't help with cooling. Haha.

Im hoping all will be fixed & my problem will go away..... Fingers crossed

 

[T-800]

Well rang Audi Stockport yesterday and after Having the phone put down on me!!! more incompetence, I finally spoke to their customer service department, parts have arrived car booked in for Monday morning to have brakes done and its first Oil change ( 3000 miles early but it'll give me piece of mind as we go to Cornwall end of next week)