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Wolf in sheeps clothing?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by imported_YOGi, Oct 26, 2004.

  1. imported_YOGi
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    imported_YOGi Guest

    Would an A3 T sport be as fast as an S3 if it was tuned up to a similar bhp level e.g. 225/230hp?

    Just curious as i would like S3 performance (be it without the quattro/better handling) without the S3 pricetag/insurance group.

    Thanks YOGi
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  2. cybrey
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    cybrey Member

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    In theory it would be faster.. as its providing drive to two wheels instead of 4.. But this is also its downfall as getting traction can be a problem.
    #2
  3. 2pac
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    This is similar to my dilema at the mo. I reckon on the move a two wheel drive car should be just as quick as a similar powered 4 wheel drive. But off the line its a no go. Although theres a lot more weight and power loss in the 4X4's
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  4. philsudbury
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    Gonna take some serious tuning to get it up to 225 bhp - Not just a remap!
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  5. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    If your just looking for s3 performance, then go for a a3 sport then ihi jabba and your there but be prepared for loss of traction,torque steer and understeer as with any fwd car.
    #5
  6. 2pac
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    2pac E3 APC

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Gonna take some serious tuning to get it up to 225 bhp - Not just a remap!


    [/ QUOTE ]

    !!! A pretty standard re-map would see 200bhp at 1 bar, add a zorst and filter, better inlet pipe, it ain't gonna be far off. It wudn't take big bucks. A simple turbo upgrade wud c it over 225
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  7. Pummy
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    How easy is the turbo upgrade to do? Is there quite good access to it in the engine bay or is it a car on the ramp job?

    Pummy
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  8. PaulRS3
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    just remember most S3's have been enhanced too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    #8
  9. imported_YOGi
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    Lol yeah your right paul, but its not to have a dig at the s3 guys, just mabey a little at the bimmer boys /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue_out.gif

    YOGi
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  10. 2pac
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    [ QUOTE ]
    If your just looking for s3 performance, then go for a a3 sport then ihi jabba and your there but be prepared for loss of traction,torque steer and understeer as with any fwd car.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Two questions
    1. Is there a difference between an A3 1.8t and an A3 1.8T sport
    2. Is is just a case of: remove k03 replace directly with K04
    #10
  11. mlcadman
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    mlcadman Member

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    mines 220bhp on standard turbo, just got boost controller, comp recirc valve, chip, full exhaust, filter and a rollin road set up and tune, tractions ok but takes alot of gettin used to with my uprated gearbox and clutch, get decent tyres 2
    #11
  12. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Ryanc said:
    If your just looking for s3 performance, then go for a a3 sport then ihi jabba and your there but be prepared for loss of traction,torque steer and understeer as with any fwd car.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Actually, traction is not as big a problem as you may think. In the dry, the only gear you cant use is first...but thyen again, even in just chipped state, it used to wheelspin in first. In the wet, you cant get all the power down in 2nd, but again, no big deal really!

    As for torque steer, there is none! believe it or not!

    Rich
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  13. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    too be fair rich your not pushing enough torque and power at the moment to really get true torque steer and traction difficulties,when you've got the turbo tuned a bit better i think you'll find you'll want 4wd.Ask bill and jabba there is a reason why they have just got a new haldex equipped demo car and why bill wants 4wd.
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  14. GolfTTish
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    [ QUOTE ]
    Ryanc said:
    too be fair rich your not pushing enough torque and power at the moment to really get true torque steer and traction difficulties,when you've got the turbo tuned a bit better i think you'll find you'll want 4wd.Ask bill and jabba there is a reason why they have just got a new haldex equipped demo car and why bill wants 4wd.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    To be fair ryan, the mkiv/a3 platform copes with the power much better than bills ibeza. I'm running 1.5bar tailing to 1.4 bar at 7.5K. This means 320lbft, and >320hp. Traction is not an issue. With a torque biasing diff, you can use full power in second in the wet (most of the time), and in the dry first nearly grips.

    I don't want the extra weight of 4wd, and I don't need it. If I can't put the power down, I can't stop or go around corners either as it's V slippy/wet/snowing. The only place 4wd would be any benefit is 0-20mph. the rest of the time it's just acceleration sapping and fuel guzzling weight.

    #14
  15. RichA3Turbo
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    [ QUOTE ]
    Ryanc said:
    too be fair rich your not pushing enough torque and power at the moment to really get true torque steer and traction difficulties,when you've got the turbo tuned a bit better i think you'll find you'll want 4wd.Ask bill and jabba there is a reason why they have just got a new haldex equipped demo car and why bill wants 4wd.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not enough? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif I doubt anyone whos been out in it, or other IHI'd cars for that matter would agree with that. As soon as you get on boost on WOT in 2nd in the wet, the front goes sideways somewhat. The RR said 270lb.ft, yet GolfTTish's IHI golf did 330lb/ft on JBS rollers, yet both cars feel pretty much identical power wise. I reckon that on the road, mines closer to 290lb.ft... wheel spin on the rolling road was a problem. Im not boasting about power here...just saying that this IS the kind of power you get these problems with, yet its not much of a problem...especially torque steer... As far as im aware, there are no production cars (fwd) with this kind of power, yet there are production cars that suffer from torque steer.

    Traction IS a problem... just saying its not as big a deal as some make out (the people who say 200bhp is the limit for fwd cars)

    Rich
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  16. RichA3Turbo
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    [ QUOTE ]
    GolfTTish said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ryanc said:
    too be fair rich your not pushing enough torque and power at the moment to really get true torque steer and traction difficulties,when you've got the turbo tuned a bit better i think you'll find you'll want 4wd.Ask bill and jabba there is a reason why they have just got a new haldex equipped demo car and why bill wants 4wd.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    To be fair ryan, the mkiv/a3 platform copes with the power much better than bills ibeza. I'm running 1.5bar tailing to 1.4 bar at 7.5K. This means 320lbft, and >320hp. Traction is not an issue. With a torque biasing diff, you can use full power in second in the wet (most of the time), and in the dry first nearly grips.

    I don't want the extra weight of 4wd, and I don't need it. If I can't put the power down, I can't stop or go around corners either as it's V slippy/wet/snowing. The only place 4wd would be any benefit is 0-20mph. the rest of the time it's just acceleration sapping and fuel guzzling weight.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    My sentiments exactly! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
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  17. RichA3Turbo
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    [ QUOTE ]
    Pummy said:
    If you had an A3 1.8T and spend on mods it would have been cheaper to simply buy the higher model.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Thats not what its about tho. I didnt buy my A3 and think "im going to make it into an S3"...and i didn't. its completely unique and more fun to drive than an S3... Even in its chipped state it was fun!
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  18. GolfTTish
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    [ QUOTE ]
    RichA3Turbo said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Pummy said:
    If you had an A3 1.8T and spend on mods it would have been cheaper to simply buy the higher model.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Thats not what its about tho. I didnt buy my A3 and think "im going to make it into an S3"...and i didn't. its completely unique and more fun to drive than an S3... Even in its chipped state it was fun!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Agreed. Bought my glof new, with every extra available bar sat nav and xenons. I've spent just under 21K including buying it. There's nothing you can buy for that money new that comes close.

    Best of all plod, and local scum leave you alone as it's 'only a golf gti'
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  19. Pummy
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    RichA3Turbo & GolfTTish

    Fair comment. Mine was not to say that you wanted to buy an A3 and then make it into an S3, I was referring to the power output you wanted to gain in that model. I myself went through the mistake of buying a lower spec model of a car only to realise that I would have been able to get a faster car at a cheaper cost if I had simply bought the higher spec car.

    I have always stated that the reason for my interest in the S3 was 4WD. The last Italian car I would have given any thought to would have been the Lancia Delta Integrale but that is over 10 years old (Just like mine) and are only left hookers.

    At least the S3 looks more current and has some options for opening up the power a bit.

    I definately hear your point on the local pond life and plod leaving you alone when they see you car and think it is just a 'normal' car. Slightly off topic, do you get the 'looks' from BMW drivers when you pull up at lights?

    I get it all the time and wondered if it was just the hatches that got it from them.
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  20. Pummy
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    Pummy New Member

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    Just read the first post. And IMO you would be able to get to stock S3 performance. BUT with a modified car you may as well have an S3 along with better reliability and lower insurance costs.
    #20
  21. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    Well your entitled to your opinions of course,my tuner who ran a fiat turbo 20v for a very long time and don't get me wrong it was a v.quick car started to struggle badly with traction etc at approx 330bhp.A diff is going to make a difference as with the focus rs.I personally like 4wd and when i'm pushing in excess of 300bhp and there's a damp surface and there so often is in britain i'd like the back up of 4wd.
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  22. cybrey
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    [ QUOTE ]
    2pac said:
    Two questions
    1. Is there a difference between an A3 1.8t and an A3 1.8T sport
    2. Is is just a case of: remove k03 replace directly with K04

    [/ QUOTE ]

    1. No. Well all 1.8T's are sports in the Audi range.
    2. Not sure. I doubt as things are never that straight forward /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    #22
  23. RichA3Turbo
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    [ QUOTE ]
    Ryanc said:
    Well your entitled to your opinions of course,my tuner who ran a fiat turbo 20v for a very long time and don't get me wrong it was a v.quick car started to struggle badly with traction etc at approx 330bhp.A diff is going to make a difference as with the focus rs.I personally like 4wd and when i'm pushing in excess of 300bhp and there's a damp surface and there so often is in britain i'd like the back up of 4wd.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Thats a fair view also... The Diff in Johns car does work very well.. even on a wet road in 2nd in just puts the power down... pertty impressive and definately something i shall be inbvesting in when funds permit. Already got racelogic traction control as my safeguard for the einter months so its fine.

    Rich
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  24. RichA3Turbo
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    [ QUOTE ]
    cybrey said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    2pac said:
    Two questions
    1. Is there a difference between an A3 1.8t and an A3 1.8T sport
    2. Is is just a case of: remove k03 replace directly with K04

    [/ QUOTE ]

    1. No. Well all 1.8T's are sports in the Audi range.
    2. Not sure. I doubt as things are never that straight forward /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    1. Not entirely true. For the A3 range, all 1.8T's were sport spec, but A4/A6 had 1.8T SE's too!

    2. I believe there is a direct swap K04 available but not sure its worth the hastle!

    Rich
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  25. cybrey
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    1. Sorry I meant the A3 Range /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif The implication I was trying to avoid was that the 1.8T only came in the Golf GTI, as I don't know about the Golf range I didn't wanna imply that all the 1.8Ts are sports, which is why I added in the Audi range /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Ok I'm tired and it made sense to me at time of posting.
    #25
  26. RichA3Turbo
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    [ QUOTE ]
    cybrey said:
    1. Sorry I meant the A3 Range /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif The implication I was trying to avoid was that the 1.8T only came in the Golf GTI, as I don't know about the Golf range I didn't wanna imply that all the 1.8Ts are sports, which is why I added in the Audi range /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Ok I'm tired and it made sense to me at time of posting.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    hahahaha.. i was just being picky mate!
    #26
  27. imported_jimbogrey
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    imported_jimbogrey Guest

    just like to add my thoughts, going back to the 1st Post. Having had my 1.8T revo'd and the performance is as good if not better than an S3(standard). In fact one [censored] off S3 driver locally went and had his revo'd as well because he was so [censored] off looking at the back of my car all the time (I know because the dealer thanked me for the business!). I guess I'll have to avaoid him now!! or perhaps you can take my car to your limits Rich.

    With regards to getting the power down, having changed the wheels to TT alloys with 225/45/17 Goodyear F1 Tyres, I really dont have much trouble getting the power down at all, the only real difficulty is getting the power down early when coming out of a tight corner or roundabout. Apart from that the handling is truly outstanding.

    So in my opinion buy a cheap A3 1.8t with no mods and low mileage if possible and you can end up with a seriously fast and good handling car for under £10,000 and theres no way to get an S3 for that they're just too popular.
    #27
  28. StephenBogan
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    My mate has a Fiat 20V Turbo and gee's its quick. Beats my S3 but the feeling of the boost coming in, half way round a corner is not pleasant, especially in the wet (like all the time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif). Oh, is that the trees my cars understeering me into???

    FWD cars handle nothing like a good 4WD set up. Yes the S3 handles poorly when chipped and pushed hard, christ I couldn't believe how much under steer it had. After a few simple mods (ARB's & Suspension) the car could destroy any FWD round the twisties (Juries still out on the Mini Cooper S but! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

    Door now wide open..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue_out.gif
    #28
  29. RichA3Turbo
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    [ QUOTE ]
    ScotSTHREE said:
    the car could destroy any FWD round the twisties

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Thats a bold claim! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #29
  30. 2pac
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    [ QUOTE ]
    ScotSTHREE said:
    the car could destroy any FWD round the twisties

    Thats a bold claim!


    [/ QUOTE ]

    A VERY bold claim!!!! ANY FWD car! Even a spoon spec integea type R.??? Well set up 4x4 or not, one of those round a track wud make 4x4's look VERY silly.



    With regard to the 1.8T sport question, I thought I read somewhere that the 1.8T was 150bhp and the sport vrsion of it was 180bhp??
    #30
  31. RichA3Turbo
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    [ QUOTE ]
    2pac said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    ScotSTHREE said:
    the car could destroy any FWD round the twisties

    Thats a bold claim!


    [/ QUOTE ]

    A VERY bold claim!!!! ANY FWD car! Even a spoon spec integea type R.??? Well set up 4x4 or not, one of those round a track wud make 4x4's look VERY silly.



    With regard to the 1.8T sport question, I thought I read somewhere that the 1.8T was 150bhp and the sport vrsion of it was 180bhp??

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No.. The 1.8T fwd are all 150bhp standard... the 1.8T Quattro were all 180bhp (in the UK anyway)

    With a decent suspension setup, a LSD and traction control, id be confident that the difference between me and a well setup S3 would be minimal...even in the wet!

    Rich
    #31
  32. imported_YOGi
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    imported_YOGi Guest

    Thanks jimbo grey, yeah ive heard of mega 4, pretty promising stuff. Do they do most parts? air filters, exhausts etc???

    thanks YOGi
    #32
  33. 2pac
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    [ QUOTE ]
    No.. The 1.8T fwd are all 150bhp standard... the 1.8T Quattro were all 180bhp (in the UK anyway)


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Cool! They seem quite rare the 1.8t quattro's. Think I'd rather go FWD, save weight and no expensive 4x4 stuff to fix. A nicely modded A3 turbo shud do me nicely!
    #33
  34. StephenBogan
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    [ QUOTE ]
    RichA3Turbo said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    2pac said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    ScotSTHREE said:
    the car could destroy any FWD round the twisties

    Thats a bold claim!


    [/ QUOTE ]

    A VERY bold claim!!!! ANY FWD car! Even a spoon spec integea type R.??? Well set up 4x4 or not, one of those round a track wud make 4x4's look VERY silly.



    With regard to the 1.8T sport question, I thought I read somewhere that the 1.8T was 150bhp and the sport vrsion of it was 180bhp??

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No.. The 1.8T fwd are all 150bhp standard... the 1.8T Quattro were all 180bhp (in the UK anyway)

    With a decent suspension setup, a LSD and traction control, id be confident that the difference between me and a well setup S3 would be minimal...even in the wet!

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Oh what have I started! To be expected though! if 4WD is only an advantage 0-20, adds weight and saps power - WHY are Evo's, Subbies, Cossies not to mension certian 911's 4WD and not FWD??

    Flack Jacket on, zipped up and ready /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif

    #34
  35. 2pac
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    [ QUOTE ]
    Oh what have I started! To be expected though! if 4WD is only an advantage 0-20, adds weight and saps power - WHY are Evo's, Subbies, Cossies not to mension certian 911's 4WD and not FWD??

    Flack Jacket on, zipped up and ready


    [/ QUOTE ]

    LMAO, I luv a bit of friendly banter. The best way to describe it is simple. Each to there own. All performance road going versions of cars are derived from their racing bid brothers. And these cars are all built for a reason. Each one does there job better in the environment it was meant for. SCOOBYS and EVOS etc were built to go through a forest but make decent track cars. Although a big power Skyline wud look silly on the RAC !! U cud argue ''why are all touring cars FWD OR RWD. Coz its better for the track. OH, but wot about the dominance of the Audi 4x4 Touring cars''

    Each to there own



    Read this though, if U havn't already. Funny!

    web page
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  36. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    A mitsubishi evo 4+ would destroy a honda integra round a track and you wouldn't even need to be that good a driver.
    #36
  37. 2pac
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    2pac E3 APC

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    [ QUOTE ]
    A mitsubishi evo 4+ would destroy a honda integra round a track and you wouldn't even need to be that good a driver.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Totally disagree mate, sorry. U need to watch some BEST MOTORING clips. They have the best group tests.
    #37
  38. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    no i still think i'm right,

    check evo mag;porsche gt3 1:19:40
    evo 8 fq-300 1:21:90
    evo 8 std 1:22.85
    bmw m3 1:26.85
    Focus RS 1:30.30
    so you're saying a integra r is as quick as a porsche gt3....NO WAY!!
    #38
  39. excursion
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    [ QUOTE ]
    2pac said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    5 secs is a hell of alot of time on a track mate,seeing as these are all standard cars with the same driver it gives you good idea of whats fast and whats not
    seat leon cupra r 1:33:05
    mazda mx5 1.8s 1:32:40

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If U think 5secs is a lot between a car that cost 20k new and a supercar that costs £120k new then u are a tough man to please. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Performance and cost are exponentially linked. That 5 seconds may seem expensive but its what sets a supercar from a 'normal' car /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    #39
  40. 2pac
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    [ QUOTE ]
    Performance and cost are exponentially linked. That 5 seconds may seem expensive but its what sets a supercar from a 'normal' car


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah mate totally agree but this thread started about wolfs in sheeps clothing, and evolved into what wud beat what round a track. I know drag racing , top end, etc shows up many a lesser car but I just feel on a track certain cars can really show up something with loads more power speed etc. And I don't think its to shabby if you come over the line a matter of seconds behind a car that cost 100k more.
    #40

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