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will i see a good result?

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by ccm1, Feb 24, 2011.

  1. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Feb 24, 2011]
    just wondering what the real world numbers would be from a rolling road, im gonna be getting one done a wallace performance soon once they've chipped my ecu.

    heres the list of bits and pieces that'll be on the car on the day.
    chipped by wallace performance
    a K04 turbo
    stainless equal length manifold
    miltek non res 3" pipe all the way
    front mount intercooler
    and not that it'll make a huge difference but a performance filter (pipercross)

    like i was saying, anybody have a real world estimate.

    oh its a 1.8 turbo
    #1
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  3. bez101
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    bez101 Yorkshire & Humber Rep. Regional Rep VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 24, 2011]
    you need injectors
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  4. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 24, 2011]
    Standard injectors 200-210, proper injectors 230+
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  5. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Feb 24, 2011]
    hmm.

    kind of flow rate should i be looking for?

    or just a set out of a 225 engine?
    #4
  6. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 24, 2011]
    Marks had good results with a set of C20LET Yellows.
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  7. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Feb 25, 2011]
    ive just had a good read of his thread for some tips.

    ive got a few sets of injectors from a let and a set of saab 'big reds'. got a feeling they'll be going in.
    #6
  8. sam80quattro
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    sam80quattro Member

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    [Feb 25, 2011]
    golf owners with agu motors claim 250/260hp all the time on forums using standard injectors? wouldn't have thought they'd be any bigger than a4 injectors??? how much boost are you running through the ko4?
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  9. docurley
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    docurley Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 25, 2011]
    In the US a K04 set-up for a B5 to max it out would be:

    380 cc injectors (real S3/225TT 380 or Deka 1 Siemens 380, Genesis 380)
    225 TT 3inch OD MAF with real TT sensor not golf jetta (Part number: 06A906461EX)
    Upgraded intercooler with less than 2 psi boost drop and IATs less than 50 deg. C. sustained.


    Recommended: 2.5-3.0 inch. turbo back exhaust with a quality CAT.
    Turbo inlet hose to prevent collapse if a lot of power is attained.

    HFC (034 perfomance 12bhp gain)

    I would also suggest Clutch and scrap the manifold you was getting due to the fact it will probably crack and get a BEX engine manifold as it is a OEM part which is bigger than the stock K03 manifolds and less likely to crack.
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  10. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 25, 2011]
    The a4 has a smaller turbo, smaller injectors ( 210cc)
    #9
  11. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Feb 25, 2011]
    why scrap my manifold? its got a lifetime guarantee so i wouldnt expect it to crack.

    all im missing is a maf then and i should be fairly maxed out?
    #10
  12. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 25, 2011]
    Yep, the problem is the silly small frame turbo IMHO.

    The manifolds are known to crack under stress due to uber thin metal. As long as you're sure the warrenty stands and you are happy to swap it over if it fails, it's all good.

    I had one and found the fitment poor so went for a log manifold
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  13. docurley
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    docurley Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 25, 2011]
    Cracking is your issue hence why few people use them other then on BT conversions but even then they prefer cast manifolds if they can get them but even then they can fail.

    Also as Byzan said swapping them in and out is hassle.
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  14. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Feb 25, 2011]
    ill look into a better manifold then, might as well do it all properly at once instead of having a lifetime of wee niggles.

    got a new belt to go on before i do anything, the one on the car has only don 27k but its been on 3 and a half years now.
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  15. Broken Byzan
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    [Feb 25, 2011]
    Should be good for anything up to 250 ATFW
    #14
  16. phoenixv6quattro
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    phoenixv6quattro staylowmovefast

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    [Feb 25, 2011]
    Big Reds should be fine from a saab 9000. I was running 302bhp on mine when I had a 9000.
    #15
  17. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Feb 25, 2011]
    yeah ive got a set of big reds in my let and it hit 297 before jumping the rollers. love telling that story.

    id be happy with 230-240. only really doing it to prove the tuneability of these over the vauxhall Z20LET.

    myself and a friend have the same budget and were gonna see who gets the best bhp/£.
    #16
  18. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 25, 2011]
    If you wanted to prove a point why didnt you buy a Garrett from a SR20DET or similar which would be good for 280-300ish?
    #17
  19. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Feb 26, 2011]
    its all about budget performance. he doesnt think you can get decent gains out of a german car without spending a fortune. im proving him wrong and getting a nice boost in power at the same time.

    if i went to that extent would i not need to start doing work on the internals. when i was a mechy at vw i heard these engines were good for 300bhp on standard internals but i just assumed it was a young lad talking like young lads do.
    #18
  20. Jason.s
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    Jason.s Active Member

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    [Feb 26, 2011]
    Depends on a lot of things really. Condition of the engine, the torque it developes once its mapped up and so on.

    Im not a huge Vauxhall fan eventhough i worked there for 18 months in parts but really isnt a Z20LET already at a power advantage over the Audi 1.8t you have? My mate who i worked with at Jaguar had an Astra coupe and that had a VXR turbo, 1.9 Astra H airbox with green cotton filter and courtney mapped that at just over 240bhp. Already at what you`ll end up around and surely you`ve spent more?

    The airbox and filter were about £100
    VXR turbo is about 650ish plus the vat
    and then mapping around 400 say?

    I suppose you could get the bigger gain over him but then wont yours cost more?
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  21. sam80quattro
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    sam80quattro Member

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    [Feb 26, 2011]
    t28 off 200sx £40
    cast t25 flange manifold £40
    3" maf £10
    440cc injectors £10
    front mount £free
    3.25" downpipe and 3" exhaust £100

    lol budget tuning for the win, just gotta know where to look
    #20
  22. Jason.s
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    Jason.s Active Member

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    [Feb 26, 2011]
    If it was that cheap everyone would be doing it lol. You`d never get those bits for those prices..
    #21
  23. sam80quattro
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    sam80quattro Member

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  24. sam80quattro
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    sam80quattro Member

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    [Feb 26, 2011]
    **** picture but im sure you get the point
    #23
  25. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 26, 2011]
    Thing is, the OP is changing the turbo and manifold anyway, and the cost difference between going T28 or K04 for those components is nil. The parts cost the same, cept the T28 is good for just shy of 300hp.

    3" MAF and injectors hes also talking about doing anyway for his k04 build, so basically for the same money spent he could have had 280-300hp from a T28.

    The danger for stock internals is torque, so long as you keep the torque figures sensible (say at or below 260lbft) theres only minimal risk to these components.
    #24
  26. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Feb 26, 2011]
    the idea of the challenge is to see how much power you can gain for the least amount of money. as in if my engine starts at 150 and i get it to say 280 like was stated with the garrett then ill have gained 130bhp.

    for him to gain 130bhp with the let he'll have to spend a lot more than me. the point of the challenge isnt the most power at the end its the difference between starting power and what you end up with.

    it seems the gt28 turbo wont cost me anymore than the k04 did so if i can sell the k04 for what a gt28 will cost me ill be happy.
    #25
  27. ian52
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    ian52 2000 a4 1.8tqs-yellow

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    [Feb 27, 2011]
    A t28 will give maybe 320bhp max,if its the pulsar one anyway. I have to say the a4 is fairly expensive to get half decent power from. Im just speaking from the days of a bleed valve and boost gauge gets you a safe 300bhp in many jap cars. My chipped TQS is slow.
    #26
  28. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Feb 27, 2011]
    most things are expensive compared to a jap car though.

    thing is im at an advantage in this competition cause i know exactly how much it costs to get big gains out of a Z20LET and it seems the audi, for the same gain, will be the best part of £1k cheaper. he started realising this and his defence was 'it doesnt matter cause they're both wasting power at the front wheels' and the audi is again at an advantage in that with the money i have left i could easily pick up a cat b quattro and convert mine.
    #27
  29. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 27, 2011]
    Only if you really like welding as the quattro floor pan is different from the back of the front seats back, inc inner wheel arches , shelf. strengthening /
    #28
  30. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Feb 27, 2011]
    nah not fussed about the welding. main point is the parts are readily available.
    #29
  31. ian52
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    ian52 2000 a4 1.8tqs-yellow

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    [Feb 27, 2011]
    Just buy a quattro. It would be a nightmare to try and make what you can buy already done.
    #30
  32. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 27, 2011]
    You have full body jigs to hand, cooool.

    Its Not that buying a quattro car and transplanting your engine would be easier is it? LOL
    #31
  33. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Feb 28, 2011]
    actually i do lol. although it would be easier just to transplant my unit over. my point was mainly for the sake of the argument against my friend with his mark 4 astra in that it wouldnt be anywhere near as difficult for me to go to 4wd than it would be for him. was hypothetical i doubt id ever actually convert my car to 4wd. not worth it for a 13 year old car.
    #32
  34. docurley
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    docurley Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 28, 2011]
    That'd the thing it would be as the chassis at the rear is a lot different between front and quarrel cars.
    #33
  35. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 28, 2011]
    Yeh, it'd be no different to welding a Calibra turbo floor pan into the back of said mk4 astra...
    #34
  36. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Nov 2, 2011]
    Major thread revival. Been a while since I was on here.

    This story went quite well for me, I ended up with a touch over 290bhp, and my friend in his Z20LET got 317bhp.

    The object of the game was to GAIN the most horsepower for the least amount of money. It cost me around £550 for parts and £250 for a remap so £800 over all (all the work completed myself, including making a 3" stainless pipe). I started with a 150bhp AEB engine so my total gain was 140bhp which means it cost me about £5.70 per bhp gained.

    My friend started with 210ish bhp and spent just shy of £1500 gaining 107bhp, which means it cost him £11.80 per bhp gained.

    We also got into changing drive train. I did a bit of looking and found a quattro with a ruined engine, spent a day fitting my engine and ended up with a very nice car. He spent months trying to find a clean cavalier/calibra, then I pointed out he couldn't just swap his engine over he gave up and conceded victory.

    So our little game sort of pissed all over the stereotype of a Vauxhall being cheap and an Audi being expensive.

    Also my friend has since bought the quattro in question, and I rebuilt the engine that came with it and put it into the car I started with. So it's smiles all round, except my friend who lost the bet and had to complete several forfeits set by me :)
    #35
  37. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 2, 2011]
    290hp from £550 in parts and a £250 remap seems pretty good going. What exactly did you do?
    #36
  38. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Nov 2, 2011]
    re-con GT28 £250 + £85 for a suitable manifold, a set of saab turbo injectors (340cc) £50, VR6 MAF housing £10, 3" exhaust turbo back, £70 for all materials and the intercooler was about £80, 2.5" mild steel piping which I used for boost pipes cost a tenner the silicone pipes I had laying around.

    I must confess I used a trade card for the majority of it, and the re-map was at a discount because 4 of us went in at the same time. The mapping cost was higher than everybody else as my ECU had to be chipped and flashed.
    #37
  39. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 2, 2011]
    nice1

    Its the map thats the sticking point usually. Mark on here paid something like 500quid for a map on his K04 and the end result was an ill car cos they cocked it up.
    #38
  40. ccm1
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    ccm1 Member

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    [Nov 2, 2011]
    Yeah I was quite lucky though, it could have cost a fortune in replacement chips. One of the guys I was with had a very similar setup on his leon, so they did his map live, and used that as a base for mine, helped that the guys really knew their stuff as well.

    I was going to start another Audi project, but I'm now working on a couple of toys for the Scottish Motor Racing Championship next year.
    #39
  41. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 2, 2011]
    No reason an Audi cant compete in the SMRC ;)
    #40

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