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WHICH BRAKE PADS FOR S3??

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by dans3, Jul 24, 2003.

  1. dans3
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    dans3 Member

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    [Jul 24, 2003]
    Need to replace my front pads desperately (warning light has come on dashboard!). Can anyone recommend which pads to go for and where to buy from??

    Thanks,

    Dan
    #1
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  3. Mo-S3
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    Mo-S3 Member

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    [Jul 24, 2003]
    Try these guys, they have some good brands in and are pretty cheap too. GSF

    U can also buy EBC for ur car but i wouldnt recommend using them with standard discs.
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #2
  4. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Jul 24, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    MO-S3 said:
    Try these guys, they have some good brands in and are pretty cheap too. GSF

    U can also buy EBC for ur car but i wouldnt recommend using them with standard discs.
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I thought the same MO, but Glen (Ess Three) is running greenstuff on STD discs without any problems, so I would suggest some EBC greenstuff pads.
    #3
  5. AL_B
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    AL_B Active Member

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    [Jul 24, 2003]
    Gambba, Glens disks aren't quite standard IIRC.

    They are the Forge Motorsport disks, which are S3 disks with grooves machined into them. So Glens have probably been fine due to the grooves doing their job.

    Cheers

    AL
    #4
  6. squigly
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    squigly Member

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    [Jul 24, 2003]
    hawk brake pads are nice. they common over here? wonder if they have any that are suited for the s3.
    #5
  7. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Jul 24, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    AL B said:
    Gambba, Glens disks aren't quite standard IIRC.

    They are the Forge Motorsport disks, which are S3 disks with grooves machined into them. So Glens have probably been fine due to the grooves doing their job.

    Cheers

    AL

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Just my opinion, but.....

    The general opinion is that harder pads cause the discs to warp due to excessive heat build up. Simply adding grooves does not really affect cooling ability, the ideas of grooved discs is to prevent fading, fade is not down to heat directly but to the gases that become trapped between the disc and pad during the braking process. The groves allow the gas to vent thus stopping fade. So Glen is still basically running the same discs as standard in the fact that they have basically the same heat dissipation properties, so EBC pads are ok on standard discs from a warp-age point of view, and fade is a different issue all together.
    #6
  8. lost_it
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    lost_it Member

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    [Jul 24, 2003]
    I use green stuff and standard discs (for 2 years now), I participate in the Volkswagon Audi cup (so a fair amount of circuit time) as yet no problem with the disks.
    may move to red stuff as tend to glaze the green stuff
    #7
  9. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Jul 24, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    lost_it said:
    I use green stuff and standard discs (for 2 years now), I participate in the Volkswagon Audi cup (so a fair amount of circuit time) as yet no problem with the disks.
    may move to red stuff as tend to glaze the green stuff


    [/ QUOTE ]

    If you're suffering from glazing then you should really be looking at some grooved discs I would of thought.
    #8
  10. lost_it
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    lost_it Member

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    [Jul 24, 2003]
    Agree and have, I intend to make an allocation for that in next years budget.. According to the accountant (my partner) I have well exceeded the budget for this year and cannot spend more..
    So will wait till after the Svensk winter and then

    brake discs
    shocks
    H&R ARB's
    Better seat and harness (I get tired of bouncing around and having to brace myself) especially with the G's I can now generate with the Toyo R888's and the lowered suspension on the track.



    #9
  11. AL_B
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    AL_B Active Member

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    [Jul 24, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Gambba said:
    so EBC pads are ok on standard discs from a warp-age point of view, and fade is a different issue all together.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm not so sure about that Gambba. I thought the general opinion was not to use Green stuffs on the standard disks. I know of two people, Domus, and DavidR that have done so, and warped the disks. Domus has now moved to EBC disks and Pads, not sure what DavidR has done. Think he's on another set of OEM disks on his S4.

    You may be right about the heat dissapation thing, I don't know. But I think we can agree, S3 disks with grooves + EBC Greens are not likely to result in warped disks. Unless you give them some serious abuse, say on a track day.

    AL
    #10
  12. NWMark
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    NWMark Member

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    [Jul 24, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Just my opinion, but.....
    the ideas of grooved discs is to prevent fading, fade is not down to heat directly but to the gases that become trapped between the disc and pad during the braking process.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    grooves are there to vent the build up of gas and deglaze the pads and not to reduce fade. fade is purely down to the build up of heat within the disc and pad material, until the material of each cannot 'consume' any more which reduces their ability to stop (exchange energy, movement --> heat) grooves will have very little to no effect aiding the cooling.

    [ QUOTE ]

    The groves allow the gas to vent thus stopping fade.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    true the grooves do vent the gas, but trapped gas is not brake fade.

    [ QUOTE ]

    So Glen is still basically running the same discs as standard in the fact that they have basically the same heat dissipation properties, so EBC pads are ok on standard discs from a warp-age point of view, and fade is a different issue all together.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Agreed. if Glens discs havent warped and they are OE S3 with grooves they are still made of the same material and will have the same heat build up and dissipation properties. but other have had problems with green stuff and non grooved OE discs, but this could be down to driving style too. Not personally knowing Glen he might be light on his brakes?

    Mark
    #11
  13. jesters3
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    jesters3 Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 25, 2003]
    Whist on the talk of Pads, bedding in. What is the most effective way to do this do you think?

    I've had mine changed (by Ridgeway Audi) and have done the following:

    0-100miles - light braking, easing it in at 20/30mph
    100-200miles - Slightly harder, coming down from 40mph
    200-350miles - Firm stopping, coming down from 50mph.
    350-500miles - mixture of the above and high speed braking (after 450miles).

    Cheers
    #12
  14. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Jul 25, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    NWMark said:

    grooves are there to vent the build up of gas and deglaze the pads and not to reduce fade. fade is purely down to the build up of heat within the disc and pad material, until the material of each cannot 'consume' any more which reduces their ability to stop (exchange energy, movement --> heat) grooves will have very little to no effect aiding the cooling.

    [ QUOTE ]

    The groves allow the gas to vent thus stopping fade.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    true the grooves do vent the gas, but trapped gas is not brake fade.

    [ QUOTE ]

    So Glen is still basically running the same discs as standard in the fact that they have basically the same heat dissipation properties, so EBC pads are ok on standard discs from a warp-age point of view, and fade is a different issue all together.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Agreed. if Glens discs havent warped and they are OE S3 with grooves they are still made of the same material and will have the same heat build up and dissipation properties. but other have had problems with green stuff and non grooved OE discs, but this could be down to driving style too. Not personally knowing Glen he might be light on his brakes?

    Mark

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry to disagree, I knew I'd find it somewhere and after searching high and low it was on the EBC site.

    ---------------------------
    <font color="blue"> BRAKE FADE EXPLAINED </font>
    All pads contain some organic (living) materials. Resins that bind pad compounds together are organic - petro-chemical products. As these overheat the resins revert to gas and cause the pads to “aquaplane” on a gas film which is called fade. Some pads only fade once or twice and then settle down (Green fade or bedding in fade). Other, cheaper pads suffer from continual dynamic fade, sometimes at surprisingly low temperatures.
    --------------------------------------------

    This is what I'm talking about, so you don't have to take my word for it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif

    http://www.ebcbrakesuk.com/QandA.html
    #13
  15. NWMark
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    NWMark Member

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    [Jul 25, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Sorry to disagree, I knew I'd find it somewhere and after searching high and low it was on the EBC site.

    ---------------------------
    BRAKE FADE EXPLAINED
    All pads contain some organic (living) materials. Resins that bind pad compounds together are organic - petro-chemical products. As these overheat the resins revert to gas and cause the pads to “aquaplane” on a gas film which is called fade. Some pads only fade once or twice and then settle down (Green fade or bedding in fade). Other, cheaper pads suffer from continual dynamic fade, sometimes at surprisingly low temperatures.
    --------------------------------------------

    This is what I'm talking about, so you don't have to take my word for it.

    http://www.ebcbrakesuk.com/QandA.html

    [/ QUOTE ]

    sorry to disagree again, but search a little more and most sites ive found seem to agree with the following which backs up what i said and NOT what EBC say. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif

    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Brakes function by converting kinetic energy into heat energy. The heat is then dissipated to the atmosphere. Fade happens when we try to force the brakes to convert energy at an average rate that exceeds their heat dissipation capacity. We can do this through repeated heavy brake application without allowing adequate recovery time. The result is accumulation of heat and rising temperature culminating in brake fade.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    see this link for a full explanation
    http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/brakefade.htm


    further down in that post it mentions green fade.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Green Fade - New brake pads release gases the first few times they reach high temperature. As noted in the pad fade section gases are released between the pad and rotor and create a hydroplane condition. The result is loss of friction.
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    now i believe this is what you are talking about but this kind of fade should only happen on brand new pads and is not the brake fade we all talk about, which is due to pads and discs not being able to dissipate heat quickly enough.

    Mark
    #14
  16. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Jul 25, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    NWMark said:

    Agreed. if Glens discs havent warped and they are OE S3 with grooves they are still made of the same material and will have the same heat build up and dissipation properties. but other have had problems with green stuff and non grooved OE discs, but this could be down to driving style too. Not personally knowing Glen he might be light on his brakes?

    Mark

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I can safely say that I am not light on brakes...or throttle...or light in body weight! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush2.gif

    I use my brakes to their limit - just to the point of ABS actication on most corners, so I (and those who have been on the Scottish runs) know I'm not light on them.


    My discs are standard Audi rotors with Forge machined grooves.

    Personally, I believe that the standard discs are made of a far superior material to many of the aftermarket disks.

    I have a full EBC grooved disc / Greenstuff combination all round on my 16v Golf GTI - no problems (18 months of hard use).

    I have the Forge grooved fronts / Greenstuff all round on the S3 - no problems (over 2 years of very hard use).

    I fitted EBC Greenstufs all round to my ex g/f's Ibiza Cupra Sport 16v using standard VAG discs that were grooved - again no problems (well over 2 years of hard use)


    My conclusions are that you are no more likely to warp standard Audi discs than you are to warp EBC or similar.

    As a side note:
    I used to warp discs on my Integra Type-R because the wheel bolt torque was not accurate! They are known for warping if the 5 bolts are not torqued equally and accurately...perhaps there is a similar effect to be found on VAG cars as I use a calibrated torque wrench and have never warped a single disc on any of my VAG (and the ex g/f's) cars since the ITR.

    #15
  17. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Jul 25, 2003]
    Ok, taken from a different source /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif


    BRAKE FADE

    There are three types of brake fade. The first is the conventional burning off of resins as the pads are being broken (bedded) in. This is known as green fade and occurs when gases from burnt resins are trapped between the pads and rotors. When this happens the pedal feels firm but the car will not stop. The second type of fade is when the pads are forced to work outside their temperature continuum. This is the point at which the resins burn off rapidly, and the pad has accelerated wear. The third type of fade is glazing. This is when the resins, which soften during active braking, then cool and solidify on the face of the pads. This glazed surface is hard and slick, and will not give the same coefficient of friction as an unglazed or new pad.

    http://www.raceworks1.com/trouble_shooting_brake_guide.htm

    But I think the important thing is that yes heat does cause fade wether it be the pads or discs (We'll agree to disagree on this I feel), but grooves will only have a minor effect on this cooling ability. So back to the original EBC pads on standard discs will in all but few cases not cause a problem, and that if problems are encountered it is most likely to be down to driving method. I warped my front discs with standard pads, and was probably down to my driving style.
    #16
  18. NWMark
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    NWMark Member

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    [Jul 25, 2003]
    So in actual fact we're both correct /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    I understood brake fade as one thing and you the other, and it turns out they are both causes of brake fade /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Mark
    #17
  19. AL_B
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    AL_B Active Member

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    [Jul 25, 2003]
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif

    Great stuff guys. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    AL
    #18
  20. lost_it
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    lost_it Member

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    [Jul 25, 2003]
    Just a foot note on breaking style, I have always been taught that a short hard application is kinder and less damaging than the gentle application approach, thoughts ?
    #19
  21. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 25, 2003]
    depends on what you are doing... Sometime short hard braking isnt appropriate, and sometimes long gentle braking isnt appropriate...
    #20
  22. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Jul 25, 2003]
    I would of thought that the heat generated by both kinds of braking is pretty similar, with short and hard the max temp is reached quickly but with long braking the heat builds still to a similar temperature but over a longer period...so which is better I have no clue!??
    #21
  23. Khufu
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    Khufu Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 25, 2003]
    I also thought you could get brake fade if the brake fluid boils and cause air bubbles in the system, so you are compressing a gas not a liquid.
    #22
  24. dans3
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    dans3 Member

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    [Jul 25, 2003]
    Went to buy the EBC Greenstuff pads for an EBC dealer and was advised against it! I was sent down the road to Partco to purchase Mintex Pads! So far, So good and only £25 inc. VAT!! (Audi wanted £79!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif )

    Not producing as much break dust which is better for the weekend car clean session too! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    #23
  25. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Jul 28, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    khufu said:
    I also thought you could get brake fade if the brake fluid boils and cause air bubbles in the system, so you are compressing a gas not a liquid.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    But that wouldn't be classed as fade Khufu, fade is specifically related to conditions between the pad and disc where as what you describe would create an extremely bad feeling pedal, but you would still be able to achieve good braking...eventually, you just have to push a bit further.
    #24

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