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Whats the best Ko3s Hybrid?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by b1gdave83, Aug 16, 2010.

  1. b1gdave83
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    b1gdave83 Member

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    I'm starting to tune my A3 quattro. I have come to the decision that I'll be happy with anything from 260 - 300BHP. Obviously the latter but It would be pushing it with the set-up I want, and probably won't get there anyway. I want to try and keep things looking as OEM as possible.

    Right I'm after a hybrid KO3s, Been looking at the JBS one but not loving the price, I have been told That CR are alot cheaper but have JBS done anything different to CR?

    I was looking at this kit but once again seems steep for what you get - http://www.jbsautodesigns.co.uk/product/2897/jbs-04-stage-3-supplied

    The kit does include the following:
    310CC Injectors
    3" Air Mass Meter
    4 Bar Fuel Pump
    4 Bar Fuel Regulator
    JBS Cast Manifold

    But.... Could I easily source all of this for cheaper? Or does anyone know of a kit with the same spec for less?

    Next question is... What are your thoughts on their manifold? Anygood? Am i really going to gain much more? I was under the impression that OEM manifold for KO3s was good.

    I was also looking at meth injection to keep things cool (not for power) to see what I get without a front FMIC. (but more on that later)

    Obliviously I need a custom AMD or REVO map with the above.

    I've already ordered my CAT back milltek system & Forge DV. I'll probably order a 3inch downpipe aswell.

    Any advice please.....
    #1
  2. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    I have done a few of these hybrids now..
    My opinions on them for what they are worth.

    CR Turbo's do a k03/4 hybrid yes.. on exchange basis, but can be outright purchased also. www.crturbos.co.uk
    LCR/S3 injectors (370cc) on 3bar
    80mm MAF housing and TIP/filter to suit
    no need of 4bar reggy when I do these (but this is mapper dependant)
    K03 manifold is adequate and can flow as much as any highflow manifold, with some porting work. retains oem fitment, and is reliable as oem, and if you do this on your own mani, its cheap as chips.
    FMIC is required.. WMI will help yes, but is'nt really a replacement for a decent fmic.. (better than smic and without wmi tho, but not my way of doing things personally)
    fuel pump is not needed if you dont squeaze down on a 4bar reggy. keep 3bar and 370cc injectors
    MBC (forge unos) is advised to clip the inherant spikey boost delivery of these units.

    revo dont do maps for these hybrids..
    I have done several..

    they hold 1.3-1.4bar boost to 6krpm and flow 220g/s or more on ones I have seen, mapped and logged.

    If you call mark@crturbos.co.uk he can quote you happy on the turbo

    Real Figures off a TD K04 hybrid I mapped from yesterday (with wmi) on an ibiza was 273bhp/280lbft (compared to a revo stage 1 S3 which was 259bhp/238lbft) as a k04 type comparison
    the CR unit should be similar performance to the TD version.

    regards
    bill
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  3. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    CR do a very good K03/K04 hybrid.

    To be honest, the cast manifold you can give a miss - the K03 mani when ported gives as good a flow. Therefore cast mani waste of money.

    Not sure you'd need the 4 BAR pump or Reggie either - bigger injectors should do the job for you.

    Get a downpipe. Deffo.

    Get and FMIC. Deffo. Or it will be heatsoak-tastic. The A3 only has the 1 cooler, and the S3 with 2 on an equivalent turbo gets massive amounts of heatsoak.

    Bolt all that together with a map to suit, and you should see your 260, maybe even a little more. You won't be getting 300 though.
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  4. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    Beat me! D'oh.
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  5. b1gdave83
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    b1gdave83 Member

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    Thank you to both of you :)

    Umm ok just makes the power I wanted...

    What about using the K04 Hybrid? With a new manifold and S3 3' Downpipe. (I presume it would straight onto my CAT milltek.)
    I need the bigger injectors, larger MAF housing, 4 bar fuel reg, MBC & FMIC anyway.

    The only other thing I can think of that I need to change is the oil feed line, and some ducting?
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  6. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    Ummmmm, if going with K04 hybrid, rods.

    You don't need the 4 bar FPR dude.
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  7. b1gdave83
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    b1gdave83 Member

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    Oh... That's what I was worried out. I thought that the standard engine was good for 300bhp?

    I'm undecided again now... :-s
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  8. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    Hmmmmmm. Not sure all on here would agree with you.... Me being one of them, having bent a rod at approx 250.
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  9. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    Its not power that bends rods its torque (cylinder pressure) and K03/4/hybrids are spiky in their torque delivery...

    Rods are being bent (as Welly has said) on fairly std engines particularly 100k plus...

    <tuffty/>
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  10. b1gdave83
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    b1gdave83 Member

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    Thanks guys, that was only what I had been told.

    But I'd rather listen to you lot as the same names keep popping up on nearly every thread I read :)

    OK well it will probably be ko3 hybrid route then, I don't need silly power. Just want to keep some of you S3's at bay.

    Lol S3's pick on me on the road, I can only hold my own on the twisties.

    (65k on the clock :thumbsup:)
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2010
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  11. b1gdave83
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    b1gdave83 Member

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    Right.. next question AGU head. I know this comes up alot.
    I can easily get my hands on one, is it worth it with the K03 hybrid setup?

    Just done a quick search on injectors, can't seem to fine defendant answer on direct replacement, looks like I can't use the S3 ones different fitment right?


    Welly i see you have one!
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2010
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  12. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    AGU large port head not really worth the effort on a K03 hybrid and S3/TT(225)/Leon Cupra R (225) injectors will all fit..

    <tuffty/>
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  13. b1gdave83
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    b1gdave83 Member

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    [​IMG]I have now come to the conclusion that I have two different options I will take but I can't decide at the moment. Any thoughts??

    Option One: Get the Ko3s hybrid (approx £700), keep all original pipe work & manifolds etc, and ad an FMIC and 3' MAF housing & injectors.

    Option Two: I can get hold of a complete S3 set up, inlet & exhaust manifold, Injectors, Maf All pipe work and Ko4 turbo for £700. Still need to ad FMIC.

    Now I don't like the FMIC kits i have seen for the A3, there is a pipe which comes over the top of the engine on the right hand side to the FMIC. This is clearly because the A3 inlet manifold is the other way round to S3 (I'm trying to make everything look as OEM as possible).

    If i go for the first option, then I can either change the inlet manifold to an S3 one and loose that pipe i'm on about. Or use this FMIC (link below) and keep the original inlet manifold.

    Or go the S3 route and do what tuffty bloke has with he's FMIC :yum: I like

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/UNIVERSAL-DUA...07846625?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM


    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2010
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  14. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    OK, in my opinion, there is no choice to be made.

    I don't understand why you would consider using a K04 turbo at all. For several reasons:

    1. The exhaust manifold design is gash.
    2. The downpipes are gash in stock form.
    3. It's a royal pain in the arse to fit as everything is different.

    Bear in mind that the K03/K04 hybrid IS a K04 basically, in a K03 chassis. Therefore, you get all of the benefits of the larger turbo, with none of the drawbacks.

    It bolts straight to the K03 manifold - big plus as they are much better. It will bolt straight to your existing exhaust (presumably).

    The K03/K04 hybrid tends to make better power than the K04 due to the restrictions from the manifold etc.

    The FMIC can be made to fit the A3 without the pipe down the side of the engine, just get some bits of 2.5" pipe from a fabricators and replace the pipework from the pancake pipe that is already there. Potentially, also, you could use a twin pass cooler, which comes in and out the same side. Some people like them, some don't so it's personal choice really. They do have a 180 degree bend inside meaning the air slows down, however it gets passed through twice making them arguably more efficient.

    There are many FMIC options, so don't get too hung up on that, there is always a way around problems. I'm not sure that fitting an S3 inlet ani will make life any easier for you as everything will have to be moved, wiring extended, etc etc.

    So, in conclusion, why fit a K04? It's more work, more hassle, similar money, for less power?

    Get the hybrid, bolt it on, slap some LCR or S3 injectors in, LCR fuel pump, get an S3 MAF housing, fit an FMIC in whatever way you decide and get it mapped.

    Then be happy :thumbsup:

    EDIT: The picture wasn't working when I started typing so I didn't know you'd pictured a twin pass cooler! lol. How strange.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2010
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  15. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    example k03/4 hybrid airflows vs K04..

    Hybrid k03/4 - 220g/s-227g/s
    K04 - 200-210g/s

    the bolt on hybrid approach is the simplest for your car
    #15
  16. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    Basic analysis - K04s suck. LOL.
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  17. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    #17
  18. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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  19. b1gdave83
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    b1gdave83 Member

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    Welly

    Thanks again, You've made my mind up :)

    lol I forgot to mention I have two A3 quattros at the moment, The first one I bought had been involved in a crash (CAT C), didn't know this when I bought. (so should have done HPI check, lesson learned). The transmission was starting to fail big time and I couldn't justify spending any time or money on it because of the above. What this does mean is that I have temporary car to use while I take the decent one apart and send the turbo off and manifold off.

    That link should work know
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2010
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  20. b1gdave83
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    b1gdave83 Member

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    Tuffty

    Thanks for the link, that seat looks sweet!

    Can the rods be change with the engine in situ?

    To be honest I can't be bothered to take the engine out unless I really have too, (my engine hoist s collecting a dust).
    Which is a good thing in my eyes, I refuse to pay garage labour charges.
    #20
  21. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    You would need to remove the head but yes, rods can be dome with the engine in place

    <tuffty/>
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  22. b1gdave83
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    b1gdave83 Member

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    Sweet,

    I don't mind removing the head anyway that's easy, hence the AGU head question before.
    #22
  23. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    Yarp, nuts and bolts.

    If changing the rods, watch out for the oil squirters at the bottom of the bores.... they bent. Trust me - I know.
    #23
  24. b1gdave83
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    b1gdave83 Member

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    Lol guessing you found out the hard way. Thanks for the heads up.

    Time to start ordering then..

    What downpipe would recommend? I don't really want to change the CAT if I can getaway with it, and I believe the miltek one will only match up with their high flow cat. Is that correct?

    All of this is adding up very quickly....
    #24
  25. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    I'm not personally sure about the DPs on the 1.8TQ mate to be fair - it's a bit of a grey area it seems. Google is your friend....
    #25
  26. b1gdave83
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    b1gdave83 Member

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    Last edited: Aug 18, 2010
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  27. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    LOL, I would be inclined to go with what I said in the first place there. I think that a custom DP in your situation would be a good shout, even if it is 2.5".

    Downpipes for the TQ seem few and far between.
    #27
  28. b1gdave83
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    b1gdave83 Member

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    Next question.

    Regarding the TIP and MAF.

    I presume To keep things looking OEM I could use top of an S3, TT or LCR airbox.

    For the TIP should I order an S3 one, my only concern is that the K04 turbo has a larger inlet. Will it clamp down ok, or use my tip with an adaptor to step up to the new MAF size.

    Sorry for all the questions, but it's differcult to know excaulty what to order without looking at it. Unfortunelty there isn't a VAG scrappy round here.
    #28
  29. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    #29
  30. b1gdave83
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    Thanks tuffty, but i'm still unsure if he uses S3 silicone tip or A3 silicone TIP. I can only presume from the parts list it's A3 one with adaptors. (I must admit I scanned through it but didn't see a exact answer)
    #30
  31. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    Tip from a Golf IIRC... A3 one should be the same I would imagine...

    The K03 hybrid uses the K03 comp housing just with a K04 comp wheel....

    <tuffty/>
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  32. b1gdave83
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    Thanks tuffty, but I think you miss under stood me.. If use an S3 Tip, wouldn't the bottom of it be too big for the K03 turbo inlet? The reason why I thought about the S3 tip was because it would fit directly onto the MAF housing.

    Anyway i think you're right i'm going to order the standard A3 tip, and use a step up adaptor for the larger Maf.

    I don't really want a CAI, I want everything looking OEM so i'm going to use the top of another OEM air filter box.

    I've found a perfect FMIC for what I want, all the boost pipes will stay on the drivers side. I'm also
    only going to use black silicone pipes, so it's not in your face when you open the hood.

    Can't wait, I've started ordering some of the parts already :yes:

    Next thing is to decide where to take it for a custom remap, I like the sound of badger5 doing it buts it's a bit to far from me I'm in Sussex. At the moment I thinking I might head on up to AMD, not spoken to Jason yet.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2010
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  33. quattro1
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    im pretty sure the k03 hybrid will still have the k03 inlet,so you'll be able to just use an a3 TIP. might be wrong though?
    #33
  34. b1gdave83
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    Nope You are correct, regarding the tip.

    I started to take the turbo and manifold off last night. So I know exactly what I'm doing now.... Well kind of

    I've decided I will document everything I have/will do with lots of pictures and I'll write up a build thread.
    #34
  35. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    IIRC you would have to use a joiner and a straight reducer to go from the A3 TIP to S3 MAF... pretty sure this is how everyone else has done theirs in the past and used a cone filter... You won't be able to use an S3 TIP as the K03 hybrid still has a K03 size inlet on the comp housing...

    If you read Robbie C's Ibiza build thread that will give you a good idea of the work involved and the bits you need to get yours done...

    <tuffty/>
    #35
  36. b1gdave83
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    Tuffty

    Lol i finally got there but thanks, It wasn't until I actually took it all apart everything became clear.

    I was being stupid before, I completely forgot what kind of figment it was from the tip to the turbo. (push in, not clamp :blush:).
    #36

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