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What's the best engine for A4 Quattro?

Discussion in 'A4/A4 cabriolet/S4 forum(B6 chassis)' started by Hightower, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. Hightower
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    Hightower Member

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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    Just wondered which is the best engine configuration for the A4 Quattro Avant as had a test drive in a 2.5tdi 180 today and was a little disapointed in its performance as on paper it should have been quicker than my golf: just wondering if i should also add the petrol engines to my shortlist?

    I currently have a 1.9tdi 130 52 plate Golf so would like an A4 with equivalent if not better performance with semi reasonable mpg but would accept lower mpg for decent performance and driving experience (in 4 months and 7,315 miles i've averaged 46.38mpg in the golf), i know i'm not going to get close to that in an A4 Quattro but anything between 30-40mpg would do.

    Quattro is a must have as i like a spirited drive and currently i've not been able to do that in my golf unless the roads are bone dry.
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  3. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    Sounds like you're a bit more of a candidate for a 1.8T: it will give you 30-35mpg depending on spirited / conservative driving.... you can easilly remap that to 220bhp and is a lot (125kg) lighter than a 2.5TDI (which only maps to 210bhp, unless you want to risk some serious clutch damage) and gets 30-40mpg depending on driving style (45+ if you drive purely for ecomony)...

    Main difference between the two is that what the 1.8T lacks in ballsy grunt when you're cruising, it more than makes up for by giving you a much wider (petrol) power band and the weight difference too. The 190PS TQS/S-Line is the pick of the bunch, but I think those only came out in about 2003, so prices are a lot higher.... stick with the 180PS flavour and I think you get the same dual intercooler setup from the 190PS and they'll both remap into 220bhp territory.

    The other option that always appealed to me was the A4 1.9TDI PD130 (same engine as your Golf) in Quattro Sport guise... which also remaps to about 180bhp: so maybe not as refined and smooth as the 2.5 you test-drove, but the same torque and power, but 150kg's lighter and 40+ mpg to boot! But if you found the 2.5TDI significantly too slow, then stick to the 1.8T....
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  4. Hightower
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    Hightower Member

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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    Thanks Lostbok,

    I think i will definitely have to try another 2.5 just to see if its the same as the one today, as not sure what it should feel like plus if you see another of my posts then the engine may not have been 100% on this one due to possible head gasket failure due to milky tea coloured coolant.

    I expected it to be much faster with the extra torque, especially on the motorway, 5th gear around 70, put my foot down and it seemed to take an age to get to 90.

    Also the one today had aftermarket 19" RS4 style alloys fitted, would this make any difference to the gearing if they are not shod with correct tyres to keep the rolling radius the same as the standard 16" wheels.

    The dealer today was a right arrogant tosser, the advert said viewing by appointment, so rang up yesterday for appointment today and said i would like to test drive it, he said we only give test drives to people wanting to buy the car:think:, he was the same today, i had to ask about 5 times before he finally agreed as he just said are you going to buy it or not, how the hell do i know till i test drive it, thats after driving 50 miles to see the car?
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  5. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    Golf Mk4 PD130 1260kg and 130bhp = 103bhp/ton

    2.5TDI Sport @1600kg and 180bhp = 112bhp/ton
    remapped to 210bhp = 131bhp/ton
    1.8TQS @ 1475kg: 190bhp = 129bhp/ton
    remapped to 220bhp = 149bhp/ton
    tweaked* and remapped to 280-300bhp = 189-203bhp/ton
    S4 @ 1700kg and 340bhp = 200bhp/ton

    EDIT: adding the B7's (since they've been dragged in later).
    3.0TDI (200bhp) @ 1610kg = 124bhp/ton
    3.0TDI (230bhp) @1610kg = 142bhp/ton
    remapped to 270bhp = 168bhp/ton
    2.0TDI (170bhp) @ 1530kg = 111bhp/ton
    remapped to 200bhp(?) = 131bhp/ton

    Also bear in mind where you are on the scale of the chassis and drivetrain limits: Given that the Mk4 Golf never went over about 170bhp in a production FWD (the V5).... and the B6/B7 Quattro drivetrain has over 400bhp (the RS4) - that will give you an idea how little sweat it would break when you're using all 180bhp in the top spec TDI... while your Golf is probably pushing the grip limits (especially when you're in the TDI's torque sweet-spot... genreal jist of it: the A4 is going to feel more refined in dealing with 200bhp and the Gold will feel a bit more "exciting".

    *I believe that freeing up the airflow with filters, exhaust, sports cat and then the big items like new injectors and turbo (plus remap) chould give around 300bhp.... best pencil in a new clutch while you're there though :jump: You'll be spending a few grand to get there and the fuel economy will be SHOT... but it'll be fun!!
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
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  6. Hightower
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    Hightower Member

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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    Not sure how the A4 had been driven before but had 98K on the clock and clicking through the driver display the average mpg in the last 196hrs driving was 27.8mpg, i managed 24.7 on my 20 min test drive :ohmy:
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  7. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    yeah - I think he's missing the point... I had that with a couple of people in the past and I've said: "look I'm driving an hour to come and see it, so I'm serious about buying it, if the car meets expectations...."

    19's should be on 225-235 width and 35 profile rubber.

    Also bear in mind that the SE doesn't have the limited slip differential, but it DOESN'T sound like that was your problem... the 2.5TDI should accelerate pretty keely from 50mph upwards in 6th.... it shoudl pull very cleanly from 40mph upwards in 5th! (and that's up to about 120mph!)... from 70 upwards and it should be shifting pretty nicely in 5th.... give me a shout if you're anywhere just SW of London - I'm only 15mins from the M25 (at legal speeds ;) )....
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  8. Hightower
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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    Thanks for the stats, thats some interesting stuff to think about.
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  9. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    the 1.8TQS will normally remap to 210-240bhp depending on how much you want to risk your clutch, but much over that it's it is pretty big money - but you'll plenty of enthusiastic advice from the petrol-heads here - there's one American buy who's done the injectors and turbo thing in a BIG way... his reg is "400BHP", but I think he's pulling about 380bhp in road-going guise and something stupid like 12.5sec standing quarters!

    That TDI you drove sounds like it might have been chav'd up and then ragged by somebody who didn't know how to drive an oil-burner...
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  10. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    Mine's got 127k on the clock... economy is 35mph avg mix of town and A-road with a little bit of motorway, 30mpg if it's mostly town and "spirited" driving and 40mpg avg at when doing a 100mile cruise control stretch at 75mph... it will get 45-50mpg if you want to drive purely for economy 55mph-60mph, etc.. YAWN.... zzzz.zzZZzz....

    There no "milky" anything and it goes like a train... slight sooty "puff" at the ground if you nail it hard, but I've only ever seen that when following a friend while he was ragging it (at my request - I wanted to see if it was very noticable)...
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2009
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  11. Hightower
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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    I've had a 1.8T in Passat sport guise before that was tuned to 200ish but that was fwd so was also fun to drive in the wet (not) but even with that much bhp the 130 tdi's used to easily keep up with me till i got higher in the rev range.



    "Also bear in mind that the SE doesn't have the limited slip differential"

    What difference does this make in laymans terms to a life long fwd driver (ooh and rwd bike rider), is this its ability to lock both wheels per axle to give drive?
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  12. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    LSD means the traction control is less likely to kick in and kill accelleration out of a corners as the inside tyre is being slowed down mechanically while the outside one (presumably the one with the most grip) can drive the car through the apex harder... drive a BMW 330d / 330i (which DON'T have them!) and you'll know all about LSD's.... and no, not THAT kind.... although it is kinda trippy ;)
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  13. quattrojames
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    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    Hightower I've answered your other thread. I'm not far from you, so come and have trip out and I'll show you how they should go ;)

    I drove a few before I settled on mine, and some of the 2.5's are very sluggish, whereas some of them really fly. Certainly don't settle on the first one unless you're 100% happy. They can be prone to fuel pump, and variable vane turbo problems, both of which would hugely affect performance.
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  14. Nutkin
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    Nutkin Member

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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    my 1.8tq will do 25-30 with spirited driving and 35 on a motorway run commute.
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  15. Dazmo
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    Dazmo Active Member

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    3.0 TDI if you can get hold of one.

    My car sat happily doing 55-65mpg on my recent 200mile trip down south doing mostly 100++++mph
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  16. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    I've added the B7's to the table above :)

    And yes, please excuse my liberal "rounding" where PS = bhp... there's only about 1-2% in it.... okay, 1.4% if you're going to be picky ;)

    Hightower - Dazmo's suggestion is a great option, but depends very much on your budget... due to the increased torque, more efficient injection and long-legged top gears in the 3.0 TDI, it is capable of motorway cruising at economy levels that match / beat FWD 1.9TDI's!

    Before any re-mapping, you're looking at 200bhp-ish in the earlier ones and 230bhp-ish in the TDV version...

    i've included the 2.0TDI Quattro in the equation if your budget is approaching £10k, but if not, it's gonna be the prices that kills ya:

    Earliest B7 (54-plate) 3.0TDI Quattro S-Line: £10.1k-£11.7k (200bhp)
    Earliest B7 (55-plate) 3.0TDI Quattro S-Line: £11.9k-£13.9k (230bhp)
    Earliest B7 (06-plate) 2.0TDI Quattro S-Line: £10.0k-£11.6k (170bhp)
    Earliest B6 (X-reg) 2.5TDI Quattro Sport: £4.1k-£5.6k (180bhp)
    Latest B6 (05-reg) 2.5TDI Quattro Sport: £8.4k-£9.9k (180bhp)

    I've used the S-Line's since they're "just" the Sport's with the GMBH body kits (same as a lot of the later B6 Sport's) - same LSD and suspension as the Sport, although I think the "Sport differential was an optional extra on some S-Lines!).

    If your budget is around £10k, then the 2.0 should be seriously considered!
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  17. Hightower
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    Hightower Member

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    Will certainly take you up on your offer, will get in touch before the weekend.

    Simon
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  18. Hightower
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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    Limit at the mo is probably around 7K as i need to sell the Golf too but cant sell before i get another car, so that would release about 4-4.5k (garage yesterday offered me 2k for it) unless i can find a dealer that would offer me a decent trade in, but seriously thinking about selling my VW Baywindow camper, so that would release alot more funds (humm could start looking at RS4's then :yum:)
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  19. BahnStormer77
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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    welll THERE goes your fuel economy aspirations!!
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  20. Hightower
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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    Thats my little dream, it doesnt help when you have a neighbour with one
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  21. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    There's a black RS4 Saloon about ten houses down from me... and he's got a really open drive, so it's properly on show.... I swear he drives the thing home via a polish-shop!

    plus this puppy is parked outside one of the little flats the whole time....
    [​IMG]

    as is a Bently Continental GT....

    both cars probably worth as much as the little flats....

    now for some reason, every time I see those cars there I think of that Nickelback song.... :whistle2:
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
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  22. Dazmo
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    Dazmo Active Member

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    Is that a reventon i see before me?
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  23. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    don't think so - it's the real thing, but the regular one, methinks...
    #22
  24. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    Back to topic chaps !
    #23
  25. quattrojames
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    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    I'm working the weekend mate, but let me know I'm sure we can sort something out ;)
    #24
  26. quattrojames
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    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    Is there such a thing as a regular Murcielago?!

    Stunning to see it just sat there in the street :o.k:
    #25
  27. QuottroA4
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    QuottroA4 Member

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    S4...4.2 V8 :)
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  28. BILKO1
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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    (humm could start looking at RS4's then )

    Stop pussy footing around, just get a veyron engine and shoe horn it in a B6 quattro :)
    #27
  29. Hightower
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    Hightower Member

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    Now there's an idea, you seen any engines for sale? :search:
    #28
  30. Dazmo
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    Dazmo Active Member

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    wish i had bought an S4 now to be honest.
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  31. Hightower
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    Hightower Member

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    Why's that then?
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  32. Dazmo
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    [Nov 4, 2009]

    Well the only real difference is the v8 4.2 340+bhp.

    Obviously there are slight cosmetics such as twin/twin pipes and slightly lower suspension etc.

    I love my car dont get me wrong but when i see s4s for the same money i paid for mine i sometimes wish i had gone for one of those.

    Although diesel is obviously more economical and an s4 would be a b*****d to tax and insure.

    Maybe in a few years ill get one.
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  33. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Nov 4, 2009]
    A friend has the B8 S4 Avant... awesome car: does 30+mpg (when cruising) and he reckon's that until you REALLY start to boot it, it feels at least as quick as most of his other cars... but then if you exclude the Dicovery, which he's selling now that he has the Avant; the rest of his cars are a bit silly: a Gallardo "runabout" and an F430 Spyder "for the summer"... he sold the 911 Turbo before getting the S4 and is getting rid of the Discovery now that he has the S4 nad knows the boot is big enough... oh, yeah... he's also got more money than sense.... grrrr....

    The only thing that made me feel better was the look on his face when I pointed out that if he was after a fast, practical car with a big boot for his bikes, then maybe he should have waited to see if there was going to be an S5 Sportback :)

    But back to the topic: I think the B8 S4 is going a bit wide of the £7k target price: assuming you want to buy it and not just rent a car for a month or two ;)
    #32
  34. Hightower
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    Hightower Member

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    [Nov 4, 2009]
    Would you not want to boot it all the time, just to listen to that V8 sing:shrug:, then i suppose you will be back down to below 20mpg as Parkers guide shows.

    Yes it certainly is, i've seen about 7 2.7lt twin turbo variants on Autotrader in my price bracket but i could always look at the V8 next year once i have sold the camper :shutup2:.

    Maybe i should never of brought the Golf tdi as before that i was used to 30mpg or less (27 in the passat 20vt) but i'm upto the high 40's and its hard to justify to the missus a doubling of traveling expenses when all she wants is a cheap pug 106 runabout like she had before crashing it.
    #33
  35. quattrojames
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    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 4, 2009]
    Don't forget the B8 S4 is a supercharged V6 ;)
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  36. Hightower
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    Hightower Member

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    [Nov 4, 2009]
    See you can learn something new everyday, how come they dropped 2 pots ?
    #35
  37. quattrojames
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    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 4, 2009]
    Umpteen reasons, but I imagine fuel economy and emissions were paramount. I can't recall the figures, but their pretty close to the 4.2 V8 but, with as Lostbok says up to 30 mpg.
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  38. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Nov 5, 2009]
    yep - emissions... BMW is dropping the 3-series V8 too... they're going turbo-charged V6... and as james says, the S4 is now supercharged... same reason: economy and emissions regs and the gas-guzzler tax...

    Most of what I've heard is VERY much in favour of the smaller, forced induction engines: as per my friend's comments: through the mid-range, it feels very quick and responsive.... only downside is the accoustic "theatre"...
    #37

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