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Water methanol injection

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by s3_kev, Aug 11, 2010.

  1. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Aug 11, 2010]
    Anyone running water meth??? im really thinking of doing it want as much from the std turbo as i can and also want to keep things cool.
    can you run it off the washer bottle i have read about washer fluid which has meth in it? if so that will work? if not can you use water and mix it with meth and still use it as washer fluid?? as there is'nt really anywhere to put the bottle otherwise..
    thinking of the devils own kit which is tailored for the vag range. any good?

    basically any info please!! cheers
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  2. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Aug 11, 2010]
    Washer fluid is easy to get hold of, most of the time it doesn't contain methanol but something else instead.

    Its find to use in water injection taken from the washer bottle

    I was looking at AEM kit
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  3. Danny Cawsey
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    Danny Cawsey Cawsey

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    [Aug 11, 2010]
    was just thinking about the same thing. also quite interested in this.
    #3
  4. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 11, 2010]
    washer fluid is often as not ethanol not methanol so you should look for those using methanol only..
    ideally a seperate bottle is better as you have more latitude on % mis then without worry about rubbers or paintwork from screenwash with too much meth in it. the appeal of low level warning however on the oe bottle makes it a neat easier install.

    stage 2 kits with progressive controllers work best,
    you can choose your % mix to run if you want it for cooling only, or to tune for it..

    kits i have used so far include aquamist, snow performance and devils own.. labonte is the current kit i am looking to use here on customer cars..
    #4
  5. Sandip
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    Sandip Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 11, 2010]
    Interesting, so would it be ok to substitute a fmic for meth injection to lower intake temps on a hybrid k04?
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  6. Lemon S3
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    Lemon S3 Alex

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    [Aug 11, 2010]
    Most of the cheaper kits make you use your washer bottle n may supply a smaller one for the washer fluid. You can get methanol pretty cheap n IIRC it takes about 2-3 tanks of fuel to get through a gallon of meth (depending on how hard you drive obviously). You can use just water to achieve the cooling side of things (make sure its distilled though) or mix half meth n half water to obtain both power n cooling. If you want to go mad theres a 1000 litre bottle of meth on the bay for £350 lol, should last you a while.
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  7. Lemon S3
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    Lemon S3 Alex

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    [Aug 11, 2010]
    Id get the fmic as well for added cooling.
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  8. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Aug 12, 2010]
    have you got a 'kit' that would work on an s3?? also how about mounting the bottle somewhere? ideally i think id rather use a seperate bottle but its just space. devils own do bottles which you can fit a level sensor into which is good
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  9. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 12, 2010]
    not substitute no, supplement
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  10. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 12, 2010]

    Devils Own or labonte do stage 2 kits with bottles, level sensors as accessories etc.. For VAG 1.8t's I have supplied and fitted these to, pump and bottles have varied from OE washer bottle with pump in inner wheel arch or boot mounted, and some meth bottle in boot with pump.. Kits are from £360 as a guide price.
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  11. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Aug 12, 2010]
    not really wanting to go as far as to mount bottle in the boot tbh, what sizes are the bottles that would come in the kit?? would like to mount it engine bay area ideally.. if i was to use oe washer bottle how would i go about using the washers as normal use??
    #11
  12. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 12, 2010]
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  13. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Aug 12, 2010]
    this is the part that worried me abit? if i were to use a methanol only washer fluid would you use a low concentrate mix without the worry of damaging paint or rubbers? i guess methanol dosent damage if low concentrate as its used in washer fluid already.. just want to know the score before parting with my cash and being left with knackered paint work etc..

    cheers
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  14. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 12, 2010]
    if you use methanol type screenwash that should'nt effect anything... remembering most are ethanol based tho
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  15. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Aug 12, 2010]
    In real terms bill...
    On a car like mine...
    Say a hybrid, fmic 3inch downpipe and decat... and prety much as far as i can go with things, What benefits and increases can be seen?
    Could a bottel go in the spare wheel well? How big a tank would be needed to last say 300 miles of fun driving??
    #15
  16. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Aug 12, 2010]
    ok well im really considering this as an option so come payday you might well be getting a phone call,
    #16
  17. Lemon S3
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    Lemon S3 Alex

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    [Aug 13, 2010]
    I think you can achieve another 20-30bhp? Normally 1 gallon of meth lasts 2-3 tanks under normal driving, so driving "fun" maybe 1 gallon will last you 1 tank? Im sure Bill will correct me...
    #17
  18. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 13, 2010]
    20-30bhp??
    #18
  19. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Aug 13, 2010]
    ..only through timing advance mate... you 'can' dial in more timing advance running WMI as its an octane booster and keeps EGT's/AIT's lower.... I am planning to run WMI but only for added AIT cooling on hotter days... ideal for GTI Inters for example... will make it switch-able so I can choose when to run the stuff... don't really need it for the daily runs or winter days etc...

    Problem with using it for power is if you run out then you get horrendous timing pull which 'could' be a potential engine breaker depending how aggressive you have been....

    Guessing there may be some takers for a group buy on a WMI kit then? ;P

    <tuffty/>
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  20. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 13, 2010]
    sod that...far too complicated...stage 1 rules!!! :)
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  21. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Aug 13, 2010]
    big girls blouse lol.....

    <tuffty/>
    #21
  22. Morgan-VAGCHECK
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    Morgan-VAGCHECK Foot to the floor

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    [Aug 13, 2010]
    Hi,

    Best way is to use something like Snows Safe inject which monitors flow. This way blocked nozzle, pump fail, tank empty etc will all be picked up.

    Then get yourself a Grautec module for your ME7.x that will allow for two maps with on the fly switching, then use the safe inject to trigger the map switching via a relay.

    A near perfect solution in my eyes :)

    Regards
    Morgan
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  23. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Aug 13, 2010]
    im more interested in keeping things cool then to gain performance. im unable to check egt's as apy dont have the sensor but i know it gets hot as when boosting the whole way down a dual carriage way holding 20psi the oil pressure drops loads more then on normal driving/sprints only one reason for that!!

    im still very weary of using my washer bottle incase i use the wroung washer fluid. could i use distiled water and like 5-10% meth and the washers still be ok?? or what would happen if i use any type of washer fluid and water as im aiming for cooling overall??

    id use a little more timming but nothing that would risk damage to the engine in the worst case.

    bill if i were to buy the kit from you and fit my self would you be able to tweek my mapp etc if i was to come to you after instalation? i have AMD mapp would that cause any trouble?

    cheers
    #23
  24. djdougalno1
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    djdougalno1 Member

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    [Aug 13, 2010]
    id be up for a group buy on wmi set it up boys and witch kit would be best
    #24
  25. Danny Cawsey
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    Danny Cawsey Cawsey

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    [Aug 13, 2010]
    im all up for it too, set up the group buy :)
    #25
  26. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 14, 2010]
    consumption is all down to how you drive those 300 miles.
    its a progressive kit, which has a start psi for spraying, and full on psi for spraying flat out.
    the middle size DO bottle seems to match a tanks worth of fuel

    benefits of rediced aits, egt's and if you decide to use a higher % meth, some more timing can be added which is more power.

    wmi keeps the car very consistent, not heatsoaking like they do otherwise
    #26
  27. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 14, 2010]
    no problems with that
    #27
  28. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Aug 14, 2010]
    Its the using it to gain more power part that slightly worrys me... As if the car runs out of the meth mix. Will the car damage itself?
    Can the ecu pull enough of the added timing out for things to run normal? As when out and about i would expect meth isnt that easy to find?
    Can just water help ? or is the use of water just to keep things healthy rather than aid power?

    As for how the 300 miles or so would be driven ... maybe only half of them would ever be driven hard
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2010
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  29. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 14, 2010]
    meth is easy to find round here... bio-fuel peeps use it..
    model shops also sell it

    if you run out and have maxed out the timing to make use of it, then yea, you will be on the edge of what the ecu can pull back.. flow devices to say when its not working are available to warn of this.., and in some respects connect to the n75 also to limit the boost to actuator pressure..

    typical adjustments i have seen and done myself, when running 50-50 mix have been able to take 8.25 degrees advance extra..
    loose wmi with this much advance then the ecu cannot pull out enough timing.. so in this respect, running out is bad.
    #29
  30. Lemon S3
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    Lemon S3 Alex

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    [Aug 14, 2010]
    Surely having 2 maps would solve this. Runs out of wmi then it switches to the map that is programmed without wmi?
    #30
  31. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 14, 2010]
    cant you only get one map on the S3 standard ECU?
    #31
  32. Lemon S3
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    Lemon S3 Alex

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    [Aug 14, 2010]
    Yeh but cant you get a seperate module with the other map on it??
    #32
  33. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 14, 2010]
    dunno fella....just thought i rem someone once saying

    but then saying that, APR used to be able to do a switchable map via the cruise button (modified to standard) so it must be possible in one way shape or form
    #33
  34. Chlippo
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    Chlippo Member

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    [Aug 14, 2010]
    u can different switchable maps.
    u cant use wmi just for cooling.
    it is really not advised to use the same tank for the washer flui and wmi. (as bill said, for paint and rubber issues, for % of methanol and water u got, for the heat that might cause the methanol to make the plastik container of washer fluid shrink)
    most of the performance is due to the fact that you can pull more timing advance,(con rods and uprated internals are recommanded...again)
    and the other thing is that it adds octane to your fuel so you basicly get better ignition.

    the kit i used on my previous turboed car projects, mainly my W124 300E benz, is made by coolingmist. it is a progressive kit and it works like magic. it have a flow sensor so it is more secure than most of the kits available. have a look

    http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=VC2FS
    #34
  35. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Aug 15, 2010]
    cheers for some good input... now i gota make my decision.....
    #35
  36. lepablo
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    lepablo New Member

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    [Aug 15, 2010]
    as a professional chemist im drawing your attention to this

    'POISON! DANGER! VAPOR HARMFUL. MAY BE FATAL OR CAUSE BLINDNESS IF SWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. CANNOT BE MADE NONPOISONOUS. FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR. CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. AFFECTS CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM AND LIVER. '

    'Inhalation:
    A slight irritant to the mucous membranes. Toxic effects exerted upon nervous system, particularly the optic nerve. Once absorbed into the body, it is very slowly eliminated. Symptoms of overexposure may include headache, drowsiness, nausea, vomiting, blurred vision, blindness, coma, and death. A person may get better but then worse again up to 30 hours later.
    Ingestion:
    Toxic. Symptoms parallel inhalation. Can intoxicate and cause blindness. Usual fatal dose: 100-125 milliliters.
    Skin Contact:
    Methyl alcohol is a defatting agent and may cause skin to become dry and cracked. Skin absorption can occur; symptoms may parallel inhalation exposure.
    Eye Contact:
    Irritant. Continued exposure may cause eye lesions.
    Chronic Exposure:
    Marked impairment of vision has been reported. Repeated or prolonged exposure may cause skin irritation.
    Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
    Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems or impaired liver or kidney function may be more susceptible to the effects of the substance. '

    Taken from the MSDS http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/m2015.htm

    If your spraying that onto your window over an extended period of time.... just so you know.

    Now back to the fun...
    #36
  37. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 15, 2010]
    and allowing for the fact its not neat meth, its a maximum 50% water meth mix, will reduce those risks massively.

    some screen washes have ethanol, some have methanol in them, but to what concentration i dont know.. no more than 10-20% tho i dont expect
    #37
  38. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Aug 15, 2010]
    im very weary of using the washer bottle anyway now you have made me even more worried, looks like i will deffinantly need to find a location for a seperate bottle if i still decide to go a head
    #38
  39. lepablo
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    lepablo New Member

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    [Aug 15, 2010]
    plastics not my area of expertise but i wouldn't want any plastics/breakdown products going into your engine. so make sure you get an inert plastic bottle suitable for methanol and should be fine. also be aware that the methanol and water will evaporate off at diff rates with the temp in engine bay so the mixture ratio will change over time.

    something like this, dont know what they make washer bottles from.

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/500ml-Teflon-...=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_Supplies_ET
    #39

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