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water methanol injection guys :)

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by tony696, Mar 15, 2011.

  1. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 9, 2011]

    hmmm, fine line to getting it right by the looks of it. I will be tapping the noxxle into a silicone hose post FMIC so I will aim to tap it in just before the map sensor.
    #41
  2. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 9, 2011]
    Silicone hose adaptors are rubbish mate...

    mounting water injection nozzle in silicone

    The issues RobbieRollex had with his was due to the nozzle fan hitting the sides of the adaptor and turning to big blobs...



    Best way is to have a boss welded to an alloy pipe so the nozzle is flush in the pipe...

    <tuffty/>
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
    #42
  3. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 9, 2011]
    You're a life saver tuffty. Ok I'll find some place to weld a boss into a spare 90 degree alloy hose for me.

    What size boss do I need? Anything in particular seem to be a favourite on the scene?

    Thanks again
    #43
  4. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 9, 2011]
    I know a man that sells them :)

    <tuffty/>
    #44
  5. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 9, 2011]
    Right well I'm seeing that man on Jan 3rd so I'll get on the blower to him with my requirements and collect when I see him.

    I was hoping to get the kit installed before then so I could possibly run some more timing :eyebrows:
    #45
  6. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Dec 9, 2011]
    If you push the timing when you have installed WMI what would happen when/ if you run out?
    Would using just water be enough to prevent damage to the engine?
    #46
  7. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 9, 2011]
    First depends on how much timing over not using WMI you add... lets say 3 degress... the ECU is capable of pulling that amount of timing safely so you 'shouldn't' do any damage...

    However... there is a degree of risk when you tune with WMI... its up to you at the end of the day but you can also add and remove timing using unisettings...

    That way the 'tuned' timing is left as is without WMI and you can add a couple of degrees timing in unisettings (which is an across the board settings rather than specific to areas in rev range)... you can use WMI to improve consistency of power and keep everything cooler... that way you keep the power you have for more of the time... you can 'tune' for WMI but of course as I said, there are caveats to that...

    AEM kits come with level indicators and an LED to alert you that the tank is low/empty... on a track day you obviously need to keep on top of it and keep the tank topped up...

    I am going to be switching mine so I can run day to day with it always off and turn it on when I need to... I shall only be using it for consistency anyway rather than tuning for it...

    The ability to add timing advance from using WMI is due to a couple of things... cooler intake air temps keeping cylinder temps down and thus preventing preignition... and the octane boost from meth itself (same sorta reason for using 98/99 RON over 95 RON fuel)..

    Water alone will help with IAT's but not octane and is less effective as a 50/50 mix of water/meth as a cooling aid...

    <tuffty/>
    #47
  8. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Dec 9, 2011]
    running out you'd get some timing pull, hopefully not too much, then replacing with some water alone would prob reduce the timing pull until you refill with meth.
    a level sensor with a massive siren would be handy.

    if it were me, id put the nozzle quite close to the cooler outlet to get good atomisation and mixture. even losing some effectivity of the meth aint a bad thing, its still cooling to the max, and will reduce the chance of the TB dying, still with some octane boost.
    #48
  9. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 9, 2011]
    Karlos see tuffty's link for nozzle position above. Sticking it as close as poss to the cooler doesn't mean more atomisation.

    I'm thinking of getting mine mapped in with just water so that if I run out of meth it's easy to bang in some water.
    #49
  10. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Dec 10, 2011]
    depends on how far you "push"
    If max'd out then, when it runs out you will be pulling some big timing figures which is obviously not good.
    Less is more for me, unless you run a kit which had boost protection for when it runs out of water/meth. AEM kist has an output which could be used to drive a relay to isolate n75 circuit for example to drop onto actuator pressure as a safety.

    I try not to push road cars, which are subject to some track day fun also, to the max.. less is more and for big abuse wmi just keeps the motor from pulling timing it would otherwise do when belting hot when being spanked.
    #50
  11. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 10, 2011]
    I'll check out me options as I do like the idea of running an N75 cut over.

    At the moment running stage 2 I'm quite interested in just running water and sticking in a couple of degrees timing in uni settings. It would be nice if I can get it all running before I go to see Bill but I'll discuss it with him on the day when my car has been dyno'd and see what the realistic options are.
    #51
  12. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 12, 2011]
    Can I have some input on Nozzle sizes please?

    I've been looking at the Devil's Own Nozzle calculator and I'm swaying towards the D03 nozzle. Here is my calculation using the calculator that can be found on their website:

    [​IMG]

    Anyone got any suggestions for a car running about 280bhp on 19-21psi
    #52
  13. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Dec 12, 2011]
    d03 do4 are what I have used when i dud use DO kits
    #53
  14. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 12, 2011]
    Cheers Bill. I assume that D03 will be ample for what I'm running?
    #54
  15. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 12, 2011]
    If doing the N75 cut option, consider using an N249 valve to switch rather than electrically switching the N75... reason being if you switch out the N75 electrically then you will have fault codes for N75 open circuit... also the default should be N75 off if you are doing it properly so that there is no chance of running the car on high boost as long as the WMI level is low...

    The N249 would bypass the N75 by default so keeping it all safe then once the WMI levels are ok switch to channel it through the N75 giving a 'high boost' setting...

    If you are tuning to this level then it makes sense to set it up to protect the engine in all eventualities...

    There are other ways around this of course depending on how you want to go about it.. you could for example add timing in with unisettings only when you are going on track and wire the N75 protection so you can switch it manually... so you remove the timing and switch off protection then you can drive the car as normal but add the timing manually and switch protection on when you know you are going to spank the car on track etc...

    <tuffty/>
    #55
  16. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 12, 2011]
    Could I be cheeky and ask if you have a rough diagram of how this would work? I have a resistor to replace the N249 so the valve will soon be spare. I was thinking that it would be a good idea if you could trip the N249 valve to bypass the N75 when the "low WMI" LED is triggured on the dash.


    With this way of doing it do you mean have a switch somewhere in the cabin that will switch the N75 so that the car only runs from Actuator pressure? I'm not sure I understand what you mean here?

    Thanks for the great input mate.
    #56
  17. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 12, 2011]
    I'll try and knock something up when I get 5 mins...

    Not really no... lemme get my head around a few setups and try and explain them as diagrams... trouble is with me is I always over analyse stuff like this and can over complicate it as I try and think through all possible issues... :D

    Wouldn't be right for me to suggest a mechanism that could potentially end in nuking your engine...

    <tuffty/>
    #57
  18. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 12, 2011]
    The N249 valve Idea is a cracking one mate if it works. I'm going to have a little think about this too. Thanks for the ideas.
    #58
  19. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 20, 2011]
    Guys. Can anyone please give me any tips for fitting a WMI kit?

    Ive bought myself a brand new AEM kit complete with tank and progressive controller. I'm thinking about fitting the pump and tank into the boot so they will stay clean and away from the wet and road salt.

    Can anyone give me any fitting tips and easy places to wire in the pump and the controller?

    Thanks in advance.
    #59
  20. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Dec 20, 2011]
    Received mine too westy, mini group buy FTW....;)
    #60
  21. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Dec 20, 2011]
    Not the best of pictures but here is how mine is installed

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I mounted it all on the panel so it would be easily removable for fishing gear etc, i did have my doubts whether ti would support it or be noisy but not had any issues with the mounting and can only just hear it with the seats down as whenever you use it your on the loud pedal ;)
    #61
  22. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 20, 2011]
    Cheers stace. Where did you take the power feed from to power the pump and controller?

    Would it be possible to mount the pump in the spare wheel well?

    I will probably put the LEDs in the button blanking plates to the left and right of the ESP button.
    #62
  23. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Dec 20, 2011]
    I've got an amp in the passenger rear interior panel that runs the Andy mac sub so just took the feed from there as it's got a power cable that is more than up to the job 

    Other wise I would have run it straight from the battery I reckon as I think it draws a reasonable amount of current ( can't remember the exact amount)

    And cant see why it would be a problem in the wheel well, just belongs the pumps lower than the tank as it's gravity fed, I was originally looking to fit my whole install in there including the tank but gave up in the end and went for the easy way out and bought the aem ;-)
    #63
  24. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 20, 2011]
    I'll see what I have time to do. I need to get the kit fitted before I visit Bill on the 3rd January so I might cobble it together ready for the mapping then do it properly another time.

    What did you use to fix the pump, tank, and controller to the trim?
    #64
  25. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Dec 20, 2011]
    Just nuts (nylocs) and bolts mate with some penny washers :)
    #65
  26. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 21, 2011]
    I might try and fix it all without drilling any holes at the moment incase I was to move it. Thanks for all your help matey.

    Can anyone else offer any more suggestions as to where to wire in the pump to the rear of the car? I have the Bose sub and amp if it's possible to run it from either of them???
    #66
  27. ScottD3
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    ScottD3 I want your faulty electronics

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    [Dec 21, 2011]
    Got a rear 12v socket?
    Could run it off the live to the rear wiper.
    Black and yellow cable?
    #67
  28. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 21, 2011]
    Wire it back from where all the relays etc take power by the fuse box.. remove the drivers side lower dash panel to gain access... all the terminals are there... +12v for the pump and ign switched +12v...

    <tuffty/>
    #68
  29. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 21, 2011]
    Ah ok, cheers Paul. Is there nothing near the rear to prevent having to run metres of wire under all the trim?

    I was also wondering why most of the installs I've seen, the pump and bottle are fitted on the passenger side of the boot?

    Surely it would be easier to install them on the drivers side so you have straight access to the fuse box and the cubbyhole to install the controller?

    Hopefully all will become clear tomorrow when I get to look at everything. At the moment im just trying to get it all clear in my head.
    #69
  30. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 21, 2011]
    You would think but no... I usually run wiring down the drivers side and across to the pump and the WMI pipe work down the passenger side... yes there is a bit of work to do but its the logical way to do it... the wires will need extending though as they aren't quite long enough from the AEM controller...

    <tuffty/>
    #70
  31. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 21, 2011]
    What's the reason for doing this mate? Also do you go behind the dash then down the passenger side or do you go down the drivers side then across to the passenger side in the boot or rear seats?

    EDIT

    I understand the logic now! It's best to keep the WMI hose straight as it goes into the charge system after the FMIC on the passenger side ;)
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2011
    #71
  32. ScottD3
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    ScottD3 I want your faulty electronics

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    [Dec 21, 2011]
    I assume he wants something local to save him from running cables through the car.

    O look, I was right.

    Read above mate.
    Gave you two ideas.
    #72
  33. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 21, 2011]
    Correct Scott. I'd rather run half a metres wire to something local then 5 metres the whole length of the car having to remove most of the interior trim.

    I mentioned the Bose sub and amp as I thought that might require 12v.
    #73
  34. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 21, 2011]
    Ok bud... not sure what your point is... but.. the correct way to wire this type of kit is from the power board... the pump draws 15amps and its not good practice to piggy back off an unrelated power supply especially if the system in question (WMI in this case) could potentially cause engine damage if it were to fail..

    Neil, wire it properly mate... its the best approach...

    <tuffty/>
    #74
  35. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Dec 21, 2011]
    That's a good enough reason for me, thanks.
    #75
  36. ScottD3
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    ScottD3 I want your faulty electronics

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    [Dec 22, 2011]
    Tuffty or westy or any one really.

    Just a random WMI question, I don't think its worth starting a new thread over it.

    Could you use a Automatic throttle and have the kick down button to activate the WMI?
    #76
  37. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 22, 2011]
    Arguably but WMI is typically controlled by boost on turbo applications...I think they do kits for NA stuff but not sure what they use to trigger the pump...

    Problem is that kick down could happen at more or less any point in the rev range so you stand the chance of drowning the engine in the stuff if kicking down from low RPMs...

    Progressive controllers that use boost are the way to do it... even on a pressure switch you would set it so WMI starts at a reasonable boost but it can be harder to get the right balance between nozzle size and volume of meth mix...

    <tuffty/>
    #77
  38. ScottD3
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    ScottD3 I want your faulty electronics

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    [Dec 22, 2011]
    Go ya.

    Just a thought.
    Thanks.
    #78
  39. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 22, 2011]
    Here you go...

    Water/ Alcohol for non turbo charged motor - Devilsown Methanol Alcohol Water Injection

    Should have remembered this tbh but normally use boost as the trigger for the controllers...

    Essentially you use the MAP sensor 0-5v input (as most controllers will either have their own MAP sensor and take a vac pipe input or a wired sensor input) and connect it to the throttle position sensor or MAF sensor (still 0-5v sensors like the MAP sensor) and you can use the progressive controller on a normally aspirated car...

    <tuffty/>
    #79
  40. ScottD3
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    ScottD3 I want your faulty electronics

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    [Dec 22, 2011]
    Thanks.

    Wont I fit it to mine, just interested if you could set it up for a shot of meth, like NOS.
    Even though I do like the idea of a few extra MPGs out of my TDI lump.
    #80

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