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water meth

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by Adamj, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. Adamj
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    Adamj Member

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    [Dec 19, 2013]
    Hi guys im currently looking into running water meth at the moment on the s3, im running apr stage2+ i know it wont make much difference unless its mapped in but this also has its problems etc, apr do a 104octane map would this be better when running water meth? iv been reading about people saying water meth damages the throttle body? can anyone confirm this

    thanks in advance adam
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  3. LEE69
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    LEE69 07 170 DSG

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    [Dec 19, 2013]
    Yes seen in damaged a TB before.Should be ok if it is injected after the TB.
    Yes needs mapping in for the best effect.
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  4. kimhemm
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    kimhemm Member

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    [Dec 19, 2013]
    I had a customer here in Denmark with a Seat Leon Cupra with APR 2+ that used water meth and ran the 104 octane map.

    Just make sure you do a little work with vcds when you install it and get the correct size nozzle. It should not pull a lot of timing running the 104 map with water meth but the trick is to find the correct size nozzle. Not to big and not to small

    From what I remember he gained 30 HP from the 98 map
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  5. Adamj
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    Adamj Member

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    [Dec 19, 2013]
    how was he injecting the mixture? through a spacer or in the up pipe?
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  6. kimhemm
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    kimhemm Member

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    [Dec 19, 2013]
    BSH throttle body pipe
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  7. Adamj
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    Adamj Member

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    [Dec 19, 2013]
    what mixture was he running? as it can damage the throttle body? i wonder if anyone has designed a metal one for the 2.0tfsi yet
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  8. RobbieWebs
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    RobbieWebs Active Member

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    [Dec 19, 2013]
    Speak to S3Alex. I'm sure he can advise u what would be best, just look at his thread ;)
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  9. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Dec 20, 2013]
    Hi Adam,

    On a stock turbo,you will get a bit more power,but only if you specifically map for it,and you then need to ensure you don't run out of water/meth,as to take advantage of it,the timing will be significantly advanced.

    There is a potential risk of methanol attacking the throttle butterfly,and causing failure,as it's made of ABS,and USRT in the States can sell a spacer to allow injection above the throttle body.

    You would need a 1 bar check valve in the system to ensure that water/meth isn't pulled into the manifold under vacuum,during throttle closure.

    Having said that,mine had it's throttle body replaced recently for an unrelated problem,and after 30 000 miles using an AEM system,there were no problems.

    So in short,yes,you will see some benefits,but only if you map for it,and in any case,the poor old K04 is pretty much done by 380bhp on the airflow front.
    You get much bigger gains from WMI on a big turbo system.
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  10. OCD-A3
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    OCD-A3 Member

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    [Dec 20, 2013]
    INA Engineering also makes a throttle body spacer so you can inject post-TB. It is slightly improved over the USRT spacer in that the nozzle placement is offset such that it doesn't interfere with any factory installed bits in the area (if I remember correctly, it was the dipstick that was in the way with the USRT spacer.)

    As S3alex mentioned, you will need a check valve when the nozzle is placed post-TB to prevent siphoning. A few companies offer nozzles with integrated check valves, Aquamist is one.

    With APR's tune, you can run the 104 octane map as is with water meth injection. Their rep has commented on one of the US forums that they don't offer a W/M specific map because it would be virtually identical to the current 104 map. Sure, you may ring a few more HP out of it with a custom tune, but it won't hurt to run the off the shelf map. Just don't run out of juice while you're on that map! Aquamist offers a failsafe that opens the wastegate if you run out, not sure if any other brands have a similar feature.
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  11. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Dec 20, 2013]
    That's a lot of good points and advice.

    I know Aquamist do both include and also sell check valves and AEM also include check valves now.

    Of the two systems,the AEM is easier to setup and use and the Aquamist does require more engine sensor feeds to work.

    Like we've both said,the issue with mapping specifically or using a 104RON map is that you must ensure the system is working.

    Also the gains on a stock turbo aren't going to be huge.
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  12. Adamj
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    Adamj Member

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    [Dec 20, 2013]
    Thanks for the reply Alex, I was looking in the golf fourm about meth fitted and some pole were getting 50bhp more in the midrange, and more torque as well, hardly anything top end. Also it would be good I clean my valves etc as iv just hit 50k..

    I have been looking at either the gt30 or to send mine off for a hybrid, I haven't made my mind up yet
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  13. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Dec 20, 2013]
    I think it would be very optimistic to think that you'd get 50bhp from a K04 already run pretty close to,or at it's limits.

    As you already have an APR map on your car,I would say your best bet is the APR Stg3 kit,which uses a GTX2867 turbo,and Decked-S3 has one of these on his car,and is very happy with it.
    It's not a cheap option,but does include everything you need,whereas kits like mine(ATP) do often require more work,although the potential of greater power etc is there.

    I honestly wouldn't bother with a hybrid,unless it's something from Loba,such as the LO4xx,which will also get you well into the 400's.
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  14. Adamj
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    Adamj Member

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    [Dec 20, 2013]
    Good point what power are the rods and pistons good for? Iv been told I can just change the rods as the pistons are good for 500-600 just not the rods,

    Il try and get the link later to see what you think about the golf thread,
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  15. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Dec 20, 2013]
    I think that most us accept that the realistic reliable(i.e. everyday) limits for the S3 internals are around 440-480bhp,and around 460lbs torque.

    It's torque that kills rods or gearboxes,and that's what you need to keep a watch on.

    To be honest,if I had the engine in bits to swap out the rods,I would also do the pistons and big end bearings as well,and that's exactly what we did with mine.

    PEC rods,Wossner pistons and race-spec bearings.

    I certainly would not try to get 600bhp from an engine on stock pistons.....mine runs a lower CR thanks to the Wossner pistons( 8.5:1 as opposed to the stock CR of 9.5:1),and whilst that isn't strictly neccessary,it will certainly be useful if you intend to run a lot of boost,but it will knock a bit off immediate throttle response.

    I'm sure you'll find people saying they've had xxx horsepower and huge torque levels from a stock engine,but what I wanted was something tough and reliable,and I think running an engine close to it's limits will end in tears.

    I have a friend who's getting over 600bhp on pump fuel from his Golf R,but the engine is a work of art,with no expense spared.
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