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Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Westy, May 9, 2011.
I told her this morning as we need to borrow her mums car if possible.
you are chasing getting the MAX out of a k04
by definition..... something running at its max is going to be more stressed, as are components around it, than something bigger but working less hard
hoping for you its just a gasket of course.. as the jobs going to be a right pia..
good luck fella
Thing is I'm not wringing the turbos neck as its only running 21psi. Some guys are running 25+ on their K04s.
Bottom line is I have a cheape flimsy mani which is renowned for cracking and I've run it for 6 months without a turbo support bracket.
Hoping to be chasing you down the road soon enough, although WMI will aid you... Have to hope it breaks (Nothing personal)
Why don't you have the turbo support bracket?
My thoughts exactly.
I hope the manifold isn't cracked for your sake, would be bloody annoying. I have my fingers crossed that you'll be pleasantly surprised and find it's the turbo to manifold gasket has blown through.
I really hope so mate as that'll be nice and easy to replace and I'll know by tonight.
dude you are ringing its neck... forget peak spike boost numbers... its producing the max power it can.. which is flat out.. No more left in it, wg nailed shut etc the power delivery is late... for a k04, and because niki has been trying to manage temps... low end boost spike kicks low end torque bu cyl temps are too hot to sustain power at top end @ same time. You cant have your cake and eat it, and he's gone for less is more in boost terms, max'd the ign opportunitys whilst its lower boost at the lower rpms, and got it to hold as long as possible up the revs to hold torque higher in the rev range, hence crack the 300bhp.... but its flat out.. We have all been reading the fb posts...
Dont get fixated on peak boost. Sustained boost at higher rpm = flat out and all that could be got, was got by niki.. I'm sure of it.
v1 relentless... not exactly the best, and v3 is superior fo sho... but my comment stands. your whole mission posted across the forums is to get the max from the k04... Expect some side effects of this..
no support bracket? really? omition or by choice?
fit it on v3 dude
Would you say that your B5 TIP creates more power whist putting the turbo under less strain? That's something I've never quite understood but presumed as the case.
Not looking for a fight, genuine interest on your opinion of flow vs power vs reliability. Reason I ask is you just said "something running at its max is going to be more stressed, as are components around it, than something bigger but working less hard"
But I'm not sure if you mean a bigger turbo, or the components in general. Because by all accounts the turbo isn't running at it's maximum, so I'm presuming you mean the surrounding components in their entirety? But Westy has your own B5 TIP, he has a Relentless manifold, he has WMI, a beefy FMIC and I'm pretty sure he has rods doesn't he? What else can there be that isn't up to 300bhp?
From what I can gather, the reason Westy/all the other high power K04 setups that are coming out of Niki's are making the power they do is due to the flow and boost characteristics. Surely 21PSI from a K04 is well within it's safe operating parameters? I've always presumed it would be exerting the same strains on the components as a GT28 (for instance) at 16PSI making the same power?
For once, and this is probably the only time ever, I agree with Jardo and can see he has put a valid point forward.
It was left off on purpose as It was so out of line due to the V1 mani not fitting as straight as an OEM mani. I will be fitting it with the V3.
you're missing the point totally jardo.....
21psi is a peak figure.
it's what it's holding top end that's pushing it hard.
Peaking 21psi isn't high no, but trying to hold it flat out at 6k+ rpm is.
I have no question that Niki's mapping is brilliant and he's extracted some serious power from westys car, but lets not kid ourselves that is isn't the absolute limit of what it can produce.
Just because it's not producing the highest peak boost figures doesn't mean it isn't flat out.
Boost is limited low down to reduce heat and stop the WG being blown open by a big spike.
At the top end the WG will be nailled shut and the little ko4 will be giving everything it possibly can. There's no other way to get 300bhp+ numbers from a stock k04-023
i would have thought that with a B5 TIP the turbo would be doing less work for the same boost request putting less strain on the turbo because of reduced frictional losses through the larger gauge TIP
A valid point on theory, but in reality, it's not the case.
This 'strain' we're talking about that kills things, is mainly heat.
The gt28 will flow the same volume of air at a much lower boost, and do it with much less heat being produced, thus putting all the other components under less strain for the same power.
Fair enough, but what's it holding at the top end though? I can't comprehend how a K04 at even 21PSI through the range is putting any more strain on any single component other than the turbo itself than a large turbo would be at boost.
k04 is not rated to these levels.. its "just" got over 300bhp, which is an achievement no doubt but there's nothing left in it... It was sub 300bhp and max'd, and cooler damp day helped it break the barrier. This is max'd.
I do mean bigger turbo working less hard.
temperatures is whats kills power and components....... V1 mani does'nt have a reputation to be proud of, so its rapid failure (remember prawns) should be a surprise to anyone.. Also mapped "safe" but the temps on the manifold under duress caused it failure. (and its poor quality)
Yes my B5 TIP has added more power without any more strain... Its made it more "efficient flow", so less losses..
turbos blow well, they are crap suckers
I have already said why the power is where it is and doing what it is... as has niki on his fb posts..
you cannot drive high early boost and expect it to hold power @ top end..
TEMPS will not allow this
true, however, this one is being run at it peak.....
for the same "boost" you get more "Flow" from a B5 tip... because its not loosing you intake airflow..
this is not relevant to westies get the max from a k04 mission however..
flow is an enabler of more power for less boost, but the top end is going to be turbo and temp restricted...
Fair play. All makes sense put that way.
Has nobody coated one of these yet? Would be a great idea, and maybe cheaper than buying two a year.
cost of coating > manifold
keeps heat in... local things wont get as grilled, but egt's may in fact increase as the temps kept internal
300bhp thru a 40mm hole into a small a/r turbo hotside (we crave 76mm downpipes, 80mm TIPs and blow all this hot gas thru a 40mm hole!)
typical pressure ratio of inlet to exhaust of no less than 2:1 possibly 2.5:1
its temp management which is the problem.. caused by the limitations of hardware which was sized to do 210/225bhp and now we are taking the pi$$ out of it.. hehe
out of interest Bill, do you know the Ar of the ko4 turbine housing?
Is it comparable in terms of numbers to the garrets ie 0.63 or 0.86? or is on a different scale somehow?
off hand I dont know if its a published figure..
maybe dan knows
Set off from work and the noise was even worse and power was dreadful. Made it to my folks house, had a quick look around the mani and can't see anything obvious. There's a tiny crack which I'll post up later but the noise wasn't coming from it. Sounds like the noise is coming from the head/flange area.
I'm now about to try and limp home 50 miles. I may be calling out the AA! Wish me luck
Good luck dude.
Keep us posted!
Good luck bud.
if the powers gone its a pre turbine leak
bad times westie
Good luck mate!
Nick, I'm going to make a claim, I don't believe the stock actuator can hold the wastegate shut at redline. In fact I'm sure it's open.. The reason the maps held back at low rpm is to stop the spike boost blowing it open and it never recovering. I original ran a stock actuator on my hybrid and it failed dismally to hold boost . I'd suggest the same on a k04 getting upto 300bhp.
Only just got home!
Def sounds like the gasket then!
if it's any help to you westy, when my manifold cracked, it didn't effect power at all. The crack was over half way round the collector, but I carried on and finished the trackday, and drove home over 100 miles and power wasn't effected at all as it didn't leak enough to change things.
I'd imagine a leak big enough for you to lose loads of power would be the turbo- manifold gasket having blown out.
Ok, what happened here?!
I limped from work 3 miles to my parents where I removed the strut brace and charge pipe to have a good look. Nothing obvious so I bolted all back together and started my 50 mile journey home.
8 miles from home I decide to put my foot down a bit and BANG! Car stutters and cuts out. I roll to a stop on a dark B road. Hazards on and pop bonnet. Popped the fecking red hose to the charge pipe where it hadn't been tightened properly. Got it back on and tightened up but as I was under the bonnet I heard a beep from the dash. It was the battery warning light followed by the xenon warning light to say a bulb was out. All the dash and hazards went dim and the car was completely dead and wouldn't turn over.
So I call the AA and an hour later the recovery guy turns up and starts it first time! I had even plugged in VCDS and seen the battery voltage errors. Very strange.
Anyway home now and will check the gaskets tomorrow morning.
Gutted for you Neil hope it can be sorted glad you made it home with AA
you should be in the garage right now!
Can't do anything till it cools down so I'm going to have a beer then go to bed. I hate the car right now!
Throw the beer on the manifold...
I'll throw a bloody match and some meth on the manifold!
im really sorry to hear this mate, hope its nothing to bad to fix, good luck dude
You also have a PM
Bad times man, we are all hoping is the gasket! It's still an awesome machine!