1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

V6 2.5TDI Injection Pump Timing

Discussion in 'A4/A4 cabriolet/S4 forum(B6 chassis)' started by donsajid, Mar 8, 2010.

  1. donsajid
    Offline

    donsajid Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hello all,

    Just before christmas I was unfortunate enough to have the injection pump fail on my 02 Audi A4 2.5 tdi avant 155 Sport. I had the work done by an injection 'specialist' in west bromwich. He managed to get the pump refurbed etc and fitted it back on, however I am fairly certain that when he set the injection pump timing, he did that manually because I dont believe he has the proper VAGCOM tools to be able to set the timing dynamically, which after much research, I have found out is needed. Anyways, trying to get a straight answer out of this guy is basically impossible, so I have decided to stop faffing about with him and get the problem sorted.

    I have the car booked at http://centralaudivw.co.uk/ and on the phone to them they have quoted me 105+VAT for setting the injection pump timing. My first question is : does that seem a reasonable price?

    I did ask the guy if they would be able to check if the timing was out first before doing the job and save me some money in not fixing something that aint broke and he told me they could run a diagnostic for 40 + VAT. This leads me on to my second question : Would an incorrect injection pump timing show up on a diagnostic check?


    The background is that when I got the car back after the injection pump work, it seemed ok at first, but sometimes when I floored it, it seemed to misfire like fuel starvation, and occasionallly it would tremble slightly whilst idling at the lights. I thought I could live with it, and I did, but now the problem is constantly there. At about 1100 revs the car seems to judder and shake on acceleration and worse on deceleration and still it does occasionally jump around like a crazy horse when I try to floor it.

    When taken back to the original 'specialist' who did the pump, he has said it could be the tandem pump, but he is not willing or able to show me the car timing which I believe is the way to set the timing on the V6

    http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-scope/TDIGraph.html

    Am I right in assuming that the above is the correct way to set the timing for my car?

    My last question is that if the injection pump timing were out on this car, does this concur with the symptoms I have described above.

    I am most grateful for any input on this.

    Thanks for reading.
    #1
  2. quattrojames
    Online

    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    13,888
    Likes Received:
    475
    Welcome to the forum :sign_welcome:

    The symptoms you posted could be down to pump timing, but also to some other things, such as the MAF etc. The only way to know is to get the car scanned with VAGcom, I think £40 for a scan is fairly typical. This will highlight any issues, and also tell you whether the fuel pump timing is ok or not.

    I'm not too sure whether the timing can be set purely with VAGcom or not, or what sort of a job it is, it might be necessary to remove the front bumper, I don't know.
    #2
  3. donsajid
    Offline

    donsajid Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi James, and thanks for the warm welcome.

    If you say that injection pump timing can be checked for errors via the VAG Scan then I think I will have to get them to do a scan first to see what errors it throws up. Thanks again for your prompt and useful reply.
    #3
  4. quattrojames
    Online

    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    13,888
    Likes Received:
    475
    No worries mate, I think a scan really needs to be your first port of call :icon_thumright:
    #4
  5. markyzs180
    Offline

    markyzs180 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2009
    Messages:
    543
    Likes Received:
    1
    As James said, get them to do a scan first in case its something else like the maf sensor etc i would imagine they would run the tdigraph to check the timing and give you the diagnosis.

    I used these guys last year for a major service, gearbox oil change and rear brake pads, very reasonable, very knowledgable and nice friendly service :)
    #5
  6. markyzs180
    Offline

    markyzs180 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2009
    Messages:
    543
    Likes Received:
    1
    LOL james, check the top right corner donsajid has been a member 2 years longer than you !!!!
    #6
  7. donsajid
    Offline

    donsajid Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    2
    lol mark, thanks for the heads up about the vwaudi people, i have heard generally good things about them so hopefully they should get my car back how it was....once.....

    I bought the car in 2005 and thought I should join a club in case of problems, but it had been 5 great years of trouble free motoring until the injection pump failed..... and its never been the same since....
    #7
  8. markyzs180
    Offline

    markyzs180 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2009
    Messages:
    543
    Likes Received:
    1
    well you can't moan at that mate, good motor you picked up there ;)

    i'm sure malcolm and his lads will get it all sorted for you :icon_thumright:
    #8
  9. quattrojames
    Online

    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    13,888
    Likes Received:
    475
    Lol oh yeh, although in my defence it was his first post .... ;)
    #9
  10. swarcup
    Offline

    swarcup Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,287
    Likes Received:
    37
    as far as im aware the timing is set in real time on vag-com. once you have accessed the correct graph wile the car is running you adjust the timing by turning the pump anticlockwise and clockwise to retard or advance the timing. the graph shows to lines (upper and lower limits) and a third line is your motor. if your line is nicely between the others then all is well. i dont think its a bumper off job if its only £105 you can see the pump from the top. hope this helps
    #10
  11. donsajid
    Offline

    donsajid Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    2
    hi swarcup and thanks for the comments, they seem to confirm what I believed to be the case vis-a-vis the method to set the correct injection timing on this vehicle
    something which i am certain the guy who did the injection pump work did not do. Fingers crossed for thursday, i have a good feeling my car will be back to its former glory
    #11
  12. swarcup
    Offline

    swarcup Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,287
    Likes Received:
    37
    lets hope so just in time for the nicer wheather. the other thing is that new belts do bed in and as you say that things where good for a while then this is what may have happened.:icon_thumright:
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2010
    #12
  13. donsajid
    Offline

    donsajid Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    2
    well, determined as I am to get to the bottom of this, I have spoken again to the guy who did my pump and he has finally confirmed that he set the timing by hand. When I challenged him that you could never possibly set the exact timing manually without the use of a computer, he assured me he had without any problems before, although he did concede that these could have been the previous model b5 engine. That's actually good news for me, because it seems more and more likely that the timing is the reason for the faults.

    Also, swarcup, he did not change the belt after the injection pump change. This was done previously at approx 75000 miles. The car is now on 110,000 miles.

    If left as it is, assuming the injection pump timing is out, is there any chance of long term damage to the engine?
    #13
  14. swarcup
    Offline

    swarcup Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,287
    Likes Received:
    37
    obviously i cant say for sure but i dowt that bad timing will have any adverse affect appart from fuel economy. If you have any concerns about this engine send a pm to a guy on here called adamss24. a total wiz with the 2.5 v6 and he will be able to tell you anything you need to know.
    #14
  15. donsajid
    Offline

    donsajid Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    2
    alright guys,

    i had the car booked in for the injection pump timing, and before they set that, they ran a diagnostic.

    The good news is that the injection pump timing seemed fine.

    Bad news is a fault was read from the ECU thats at the back of the gearbox - no signal or something

    Gonna cost over a grand to fix it

    absolutely gutted

    apparently, quite a common problem on the tiptronic box I have. The tell tale sign would have been the time when I was driving down the motorway and the PRND lit all 4 blocks simultaneously. Switching off the engine and back on again made the lights go out, but this is an early indication that the gearbox ecu is on the way out. Gonna take at least 7 days to sort it, because the ecu has to be ordered from audi and comes preprogrammed for my car specifically.

    Absolutely gutted but I hope this helps someone.
    #15
  16. quattrojames
    Online

    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    13,888
    Likes Received:
    475
    Sorry to hear that mate :(

    I've read about the PRND lights flashing on before. That seems quite expensive for a gearbox ecu - who's doing the work?

    I'm thinking it would have been better if it was the pump timing.....
    #16
  17. donsajid
    Offline

    donsajid Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    2
    alright james,

    <quote>
    I'm thinking it would have been better if it was the pump timing.....
    </quote>

    It would have been soooooooo much better, alas not


    its with central audi vw in birmingham
    the part alone is 700 + vat, and the guy said that this comes preprogrammed for my specific vehicle and takes 7 - 10 days to be delivered.
    I suppose I could try and get one second hand, I was reading about it, but to be honest, if this solves my car problems, then I will be happy.
    Once thing for sure though, i paid 14000 for the car 5 years ago, and in the last year I have spent 1200 on the injection pump, 1000 now on this ecu....
    I will defo be keeping the car until it dies.
    What else is a common problem on these cars apart from the two things above?
    #17
  18. swarcup
    Offline

    swarcup Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,287
    Likes Received:
    37
    Thermostats are notoriously fragile throughout the entire audi range and will cost in the region of £300-£400 to replace. If there is a chance for your garage to slip one in while they are doing it then go for it as its only a £15 part
    #18
  19. markyzs180
    Offline

    markyzs180 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2009
    Messages:
    543
    Likes Received:
    1
    gutted for you mate, as a multitronic owner myself it sends shivers down my spine every time i hear about another failure :(

    on the bright side though, they know exactly what they are doing at central audi with regards to the ecu as he had to do it on his own cab in the first month he owned it!
    #19
  20. donsajid
    Offline

    donsajid Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    2
    yeah malcolm did mention that the exact same error code and symptoms were experienced by him in his a4 cab.
    I remember looking on parkers and I am pretty sure they listed my box as tiptronic and not multitronic.

    Mine is the A4 155 Sport 2.5 tdi, could the same code be possible on the tiptronic or do I have a multitronic box?

    According to parkers here http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/audi/a4-avant-2001.aspx?page=7

    My box is the auto box, with multitronic only available on the 163 bhp version of the 2.5 tdi.

    Anyone know if the error code I had would be possible on a non-multitronic box?
    #20
  21. markyzs180
    Offline

    markyzs180 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2009
    Messages:
    543
    Likes Received:
    1
    not sure to be honest, what year is yours?

    main question i've been meaning to ask is...have you been having any continuing trouble with it? mine can be a little slow to get itself into neutral when coming to a stop sometimes and i had a implausible signal code (can't remember exactly what it was) but i read on here about cleaning the wheel speed sensors in the front hubs and when i dropped mine out they were caked in mud! celaned them up and popped them back in and its been fine since.

    if you haven't had any trouble with it i don't think i'd be paying out a grand to have it 'fixed'
    #21
  22. donsajid
    Offline

    donsajid Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hey marky,

    the main problem I have been having was the intermittent juddering at first, which over the period of about 2 months became a constant vibration at low revs and also jerking on takeoff. It really had become pretty undrivable to be honest. The guy did take a deposit off me and I didnt really wanna move the car again so left him with it until the part arrived. I wish I had known about that wheel speed sensor though, I do seem to remember reading about something like that on here..

    The car itself is an early b6, an 02 plater.... its a 155 Sport. Any ideas on what transmission it is ? tip or multitronic?
    #22
  23. donsajid
    Offline

    donsajid Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi All,

    Sorry to bring up this 2 week old thread but I have just received back my 02 A4 Avant 2.5 tdi with the CVT box which had the judder problem described above and thought it best to update the thread in case anyone else is unfortunate enough to have to go through what I just did.

    Well the story goes that I had a slight and occasional judder on takeoff which gradually got worse over a 3 - 4 month period to the point where everytime I accelerated or decelerated through the 1200k rev band, there was a judder in the car and by now it had also developed a violent jerking on acceleration which was not always there but pretty damn close to always!!

    Anyway, because I had just had the diesel injection pump done (£1200!!) I thought it must be the timing that had gone. I had it booked in at Central Audi VW in birmingham just off tyburn road and whom I can heartily recommend by the way, and they diagnosed the gearbox ECU which after having researched it, seems to account for ~95% of failures in the CVT transmission in the B6 (and the B7 by the looks of things). I had it done(~£1300) and I have to admit, it did not make the blind bit of difference.

    Now I have heard of inde-tech in milton keynes, and although I have not used them myself, they do seem to have a good reputation for diagnosing and fixing the occasional judder problem with the installation of a 7-plated clutch upgrade at 750+VAT. If the problem has just appeared on your car then I would get it checked out with them pronto. This would have been no good to me though as it has since transpired through visual inspection that my whole gearbox had already by now started to disintegrate. The drive chain was actually loose and it was a miracle that a complete failure had not occured. So, only option now was £3000.00 gearbox rebuild. Ouch.
    Thats £3000 + £1200 ecu + £1200.00 refurb diesel injection pump £5400 I have spent in the last 4 months.

    The reason I have included these figures is really as a warning to people who buy this model car of the costs that are involved if something were to go wrong. The transmission and diesel injection pump do seem to be the main culprits to fail at around the 110,000 mile mark, so watch out for judders, or misfires, as the misfire can be your pump, and the judder could mean a new auto transmission. I would get the gearbox oil changed every 35,000 miles just to be on the safe side(should be 40,000) and any hint of a judder, and getit booked in to an audi specialist ASAP as the sooner you can diagnose the fault, the less damage will be caused, and hence less repair bills!!!!That would be my advice to anyone thinking about buying the audi CVT b6 or b7.

    I tell you what though, she does go now, probably better than when i first got her on 60,000 miles. She really is driving like brand new and just in time for the summer.. was it worth it? You Bet!!!
    #23
  24. vrbob
    Offline

    vrbob Thats no Moon, Thats a space station!

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    157
    Wow sounds like you had some real fun in the last 4 months with your car! glad its now sorted mate and that your happy with the car cos at the end of the day that is what matters.

    I have the Tiptronic 5 speed box in my car (only had it a couple of months) and so far gotta say its been very good and hopefully will be for the forseable future (fingers crossed). Now do you know if the gearbox oil is due to be changed in these boxes every 40,000 like the multitronic boxes. As i am gonna get the car serviced over easter i think as i am going on holiday so i may get them to do that too.
    #24
  25. donsajid
    Offline

    donsajid Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    2
    i think the tiptronic is a sealed for life box, but it cant do no harm to go down to audi and ask them about the gearbox oil change as I could be wrong on that one. Reading around, it does seem that the tiptronic box is a better and more reliable box and doesnt seem to be afflicted with the same problems as the CVT and multichronic. Having said that, I have read that these boxes can also fail after the 120,000 mile mark so maybe worth getting shot of it before then....
    #25
  26. vrbob
    Offline

    vrbob Thats no Moon, Thats a space station!

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    157
    on 100,000 miles at the mo at it seems very strong,

    Will defo get it checked out and if anything needs servicing i will get it done as i would prefer not to have to spend a large amount getting it repaired cos i hadnt spent a little keep it maintained.

    Cheers for the info
    #26

Share This Page