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Upgrading Turbocharger

Discussion in 'Tuning' started by , Mar 31, 2004.

  1. Punisher
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    Punisher New Member

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    I have APR Chip, Milltek Downpipe and rear box, plus other minor mods like Forge DV etc.
    What i need is some advice on what to do next,
    Seeing as it's FWD i think i will like to go to 250hp, What do i need to get there and who to do this, and how much roughly.
    Is the KO3s fitted to later engines good, or bypass it and go to KO4? What about IHI Turbo?
    My car is 99 Golf 1.8T
    #1
  2. gc48067
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    gc48067 Member

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    I would talk to Jabbasport - they seem to do more Golf kit than most.


    Greg
    #2
  3. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I have APR Chip, Milltek Downpipe and rear box, plus other minor mods like Forge DV etc.
    What i need is some advice on what to do next,
    Seeing as it's FWD i think i will like to go to 250hp, What do i need to get there and who to do this, and how much roughly.
    Is the KO3s fitted to later engines good, or bypass it and go to KO4? What about IHI Turbo?
    My car is 99 Golf 1.8T

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Depends on your budget. The IHI route will cost you around £4k+vat if done cheaply, K04 about £2k (not worth it IMO!)

    Rich
    #3
  4. Punisher
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    Punisher New Member

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    Rich - why is it not worth it, do you mean the little gain in hp against the cost?

    will i be charged for a full remap or will the map i've got just be altered sligtly?

    Is the K03 not worth bothering with?
    #4
  5. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]

    Rich - why is it not worth it, do you mean the little gain in hp against the cost?

    will i be charged for a full remap or will the map i've got just be altered sligtly?

    Is the K03 not worth bothering with?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    For the power you will achieve, its not worth it. its a lot of money for not a great deal.

    Your current remap will be useless so will be charged full price again.

    K03S is only worth it if you can get one cheap (under £200).. Other than that, no.

    Rich
    #5
  6. simonelman
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    simonelman Member

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    Hi
    I think a hybrid Ko4 is the way forward.
    Simple to fit
    Simon
    #6
  7. Punisher
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    Punisher New Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Hi
    I think a hybrid Ko4 is the way forward.
    Simple to fit
    Simon

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Will i get the 250 HP i'm after with the Hybrid K04?
    Where can i get one fitted, is Jabba the only fitter, ideally i would like to go to someone in or around london for this work.
    #7
  8. Markey
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    Markey Active Member

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    With a hybrid one and the right remap yes you will.
    There are cars running 300bhp on hybrid K04 turbos.
    #8
  9. simonelman
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    simonelman Member

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    #9
  10. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    However you would still need manifold, custom downpipe for fwd, uprated intercooler (1 ISN'T enough!) the turbo itself, new intake pipework, remap .etc... Still get to be very expensive and you might aswell go for a proper big turbo!
    #10
  11. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    With a hybrid one and the right remap yes you will.
    There are cars running 300bhp on hybrid K04 turbos.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    However, the manifold is sh*te and with that kind of power, wont last long IMO.

    Rich
    #11
  12. monty77
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    monty77 Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Simon your link comes up with a login page.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Register then /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    ..looking forward to seeing results from the Hybrid Simon.

    Cheers,
    Adam
    #12
  13. Soupie69uk
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    Soupie69uk Owner

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    Now it says topic does not exist.

    Why not just put a pic up?
    #13
  14. simonelman
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    simonelman Member

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    OK the way I see it its a straight swap just unbolt your old turbo and bolt in the new hybrid turbo.The only problem is the cost as AmD are going to charge for 7-8 hours labour.

    The way a hybrid turbo works is that it takes parts from different turbos, in this case the hot side is a k04 so it still spins the same very fast and no lag.So the shaft speed is the same, the big improvement is in the cold side which will produce more flow/boost and do so with a greater efficiency (less heat)

    The MTM chip should be able to adjust fueling/timing for the difference in airflow and air density.If not AmD will make up a custom remap.

    SimonS3MTM/AmD?
    #14
  15. simonelman
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    simonelman Member

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    [image]http://www.audi-sport.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=753&sort=1&cat=500&page=1[/image]

    SimonS3MTM
    #15
  16. imported_Feel
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    imported_Feel Guest

    [ QUOTE ]
    OK the way I see it its a straight swap just unbolt your old turbo and bolt in the new hybrid turbo.The only problem is the cost as AmD are going to charge for 7-8 hours labour.

    The way a hybrid turbo works is that it takes parts from different turbos, in this case the hot side is a k04 so it still spins the same very fast and no lag.So the shaft speed is the same, the big improvement is in the cold side which will produce more flow/boost and do so with a greater efficiency (less heat)

    The MTM chip should be able to adjust fueling/timing for the difference in airflow and air density.If not AmD will make up a custom remap.

    SimonS3MTM/AmD?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I was hoping the same. Jacob thinks just a 4 bar fpr is needed - remap perhaps not needed. I'll be interested in what AmD say. 7-8 hours to swap a turbo though? I guess they have to run it as though they are going to remap it...

    I thought Jacob did more to the hot side? Is it just the cold side he looks at then? Bearings?
    #16
  17. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    From what i understand he's fitted a larger compressor wheel and port and polished the turbine housing this will result in more lag and more air flowed at lower boost.I personally would want uprated bearings.I think that the exhaust side is still far too small and this will will hold the turbo back from making big numbers,my guess,15bhp gain at top end.
    #17
  18. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    7-8 hours seems realistic... Its a pig of a job! There is lots of pipework to remove, fluids to drain, and lines to disconnect/reconnect which are a real pain in the arse to do...you've got no room to manoeuver!
    #18
  19. simonelman
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    simonelman Member

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    Even Audi gave me 7 hours labour time .

    I went for porting / polishing, ceramic coating and the turbine vanes cliped.I just ticked all the boxes I mean if your spending £500 for fitting the extras cost very little.

    I`m running a 3 inch down pipe so flow should be good.

    Time will tell about the power output 320 would be nice, it will be fitted on the 14th.

    SimonS3MTM
    #19
  20. Soupie69uk
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    Soupie69uk Owner

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    320 would be very impressiv out a K04!!

    Have a look ate this site he has a slightly different K04 and doesn't make that and he has done loads to his car.

    http://www.20v-turbo.co.uk

    <u>Engine spec sheet</u>

    1.8 20-valve 4-cylinder turbocharged.

    Forged steel crank, rods and pistons, braced closed-deck block (standard on all 1.8T engines)

    Hybrid K04 turbo upgrade (Star Performance spec).

    Star Performance custom ECU map (written by Jim Curley).

    APR front-mounted intercooler.

    AEM cold-air intake system (heat-wrapped).

    Milltek 3 inch stainless steel turbo downpipe, 100-cell race CAT, 02-sensor adapter fitted to prevent CEL (check engine light).

    Bosch 4-BAR fuel pressure regulator (upgraded from stock 3-BAR).

    Eastside Performance custom rear exhaust section with 4 inch Jap-style silencer with flame burnt tip.

    Neuspeed lightweight power pulley kit.

    ABD Racing oversized IC to TB intake silicone hose.

    Forge Motorsport 007PA dump valve

    Denso iridium spark plugs.

    Samco turbo intake pipe and ancillary hoses.

    Goodridge braided stainless steel fuel and oil hoses.

    Ohayo Racing grounding kit.

    Sun-Auto ‘Hot InaZma’ voltage booster/stabiliser.

    Helix oil catch tank.

    Nitrous Express N-tercooler halo nitrous spray system.

    Performance – 293BHP &amp; 296lbft @ 1.2 BAR (297PS/401Nm metric) using nitrous IC spray and 102 octane fuel on the Star dyno 24/10/04.

    Chances are it is a different hybrid though.
    #20
  21. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    "Clipping" is a process where material is removed from the exhaust turbine. This reduces the fin area exposed to the exhaust flow, so turbo lag will increase slightly. But at high rpms, a full turbine wheel will actually choke off exhaust flow, so clipping can dramatically improve high-rpm horsepower.
    #21
  22. imported_Stewart
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    imported_Stewart Guest

    I'll relate my own experiences of Golf ownership (see http://www.oreton.com/cars.htm) and the other guys on www.uk-mkivs.net ...

    Between the K04-001 and k03s conversion, the K03s is the MUCH cheaper option and will produce about the same power/torque. As has been stated they are very similar physically although the general consensus is (and the vwvortex guys will testify to this) that the K03s is the stronger unit (and therefore more reliable in the long run) although my experiences show that the K04-001 breathes better at the top end 90mph onwards.
    So you could bolt on a K03s (they can be had for around the £350 mark) and see 240bhp from a Jabba remap but thats your lot, maybe a few brake more with other mods like 3" DP, de-cat or sports cat, all the IC pipe work/Samco etc etc (again check out the mods on my golf). You dont need a 4bar FPR as Mike at Jabba 'modifies' /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif the standard one.

    You can push a K04-001 upgrade further with the hybrid versions like the E0-5 like Wilko off uk-mkivs.net did (he ultimately got fed up with that and went IHI) which should see around the 270bhp mark, then with FMIC, uprated fuel pump (S3/TT) and higher flow injectors you could remap up to near the 300bhp mark..

    BUT BUT BUT, my point is here that you are really pushing the envelope of the fragile (using the term very loosely) K04. You will be pushing the boost up, perhaps running around the 20psi mark on WOT and to achieve 300bhp ish you will have spent close to what it would have cost to go IHI in the first place!!!

    An IHI conversion runs lower boost for more power, yes there is slightly more lag and the power comes in later (approx 300rpm later than the K04) but at 2500rpm, even though the IHI wont be 'on boost' yet it will be producing more power than K04 at the same RPM!
    The power delivery on an IHI is ultra smoothm there is no mad ramping up of boost, just a very linear power delivery.
    An IHI will be mapped by Jabba at about 1bar (14 psi almost) and produce between 330 and 380bhp with MASSES of torque but they tend to 'limit' the torque to 300Ibs to keep the clutch sweet.

    The IHI conversion is not a lot more work than a K04 conversion, its just the DP fabrication which is the pain in the arse.
    All the parts can be sourced yourself and save yourself a good wedge. I think from memory the IHI is the VF-34 (probably way off there lol /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )model, the only thing you will need to achieve the 380 ish bhp is the custom made Jabba manifold (they dont make it but you cant buy it from the manufacturer). All the oil lines can be made by a local hydraulics co, the S3 fuel pump from VAG or 2nd hand, the injectors from many places and any mechanic worth his salt would be able to make the DP adaptor fit to your existing DP. Finally when its all fitted you take it to Jabba for the final mapping.

    Btw, if you source the parts yourself, you can go to JBS or Dubsport who will do the fitting for you. I doubt Jabba would be very happy about being given the parts which they normally supply themselves, and being asked to fit them lol.

    Jabba ran their MkIV on a standard SMIC for a long while with no problems, there is so much power and torque there that you hardly notice the heat soak /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    So in conclusion, with smart shopping around I would strongly recommend going the IHI route which will ultimately be more reliable and powerful if a little more expensive but at least then you wont need to upgrade any further.

    Cheers.
    #22
  23. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    AS has been said time and time again...
    remap then big turbo anything else is a waste of cash.
    #23
  24. imported_Stewart
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    imported_Stewart Guest

    Ryan, do you mean just get a remap and get used to that then go the whole hog to big turbo?
    #24
  25. W8 Performance
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    W8 Performance Member

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  26. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    IU totally agree. The K)4 although it may make decent 'figures' wont be the same as a proper big turbo... The turbo will be at its absolute limit at decent figures and running a dangerous amount of boost. With an IHI you can run 1.25bar sustained and achieve 330/330 with little stress due to boost, also means it runs cooler as the turbo isnt working nearly as hard as the K04 would be. IMO its throwing money into a pit because there is no potential past that. Also, i dont like the chances of the crappy manifold lasting all that long!

    The IHI is good for about 350 with a p20 turbine housing and other engine work done.... Any figures that say 380 are slightly optimistic! Youd need a VF-22 for that!
    #26
  27. simonelman
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    simonelman Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    AS has been said time and time again...
    remap then big turbo anything else is a waste of cash.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Mabe maybe not I just want to see how far I can go with a ko4 and limited funds. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

    SimonS3MTM
    #27
  28. imported_Stewart
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    imported_Stewart Guest

    Feel, a K04 is not just a simple 'bolt on' or swap' affair, they are actually a right pig of a job to get on and off... Once the turbo is off, the manifold is a piece of cake (comparitively) to remove. The oil lines have to be disconnected from the Turbo anyway so unbolting the other end is a five minute job.

    So, going BT is just as much of a pig of a job as the k04 or K03s (doesnt matter what turbo!) APART from the DP fabrication...

    It doesnt matter which derivative of the K04 you go for, they are all pretty similar in size/castings. The weakness in these models stems from the shaft and the loads placed upon it. (I.E the size of the impeller/s and turbine blades - bigger blades=more weight and therefore more stress on the shaft.)
    The other point is that even the best K04 derivative will have to run high boost to achieve the figures which will ultimately mean running hotter and a shorter life span than a BT running less boost for more power...

    As Ryan says, by the time you've bought all the other 'bolt ons' with the K04-*** , you could have gone BT in the first place for more reliable, less stressful power.
    #28
  29. ANDYTQ
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    ANDYTQ Member

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    I can understand where you guys are coming from ,but most of us don't have a huge amount of money to throw at a car.I would love a ihi conversion but cannot justifiy the cost,for road use and quicker spool up a modded k04 makes sense as long as its cost effective,no point in spending £2000 on a ko4 hybrid ,when could maybe do a big turbo for not much more if you don't mind getting your hands dirty.I shall be trying out a hybrid k04 (bolt on replacement for ko3)not 001 type!,a sort of ko4 23/e05 hybrid,but it will be done to a budget and all the work will be done by me apart from mapping to save money.If i get 250-260 bhp i will be happy ,it will make the car a lot of fun for the money anything more power wise will be a bonus.I will have LCR maf ,tip , injectors as well from a mate whos fitting a gt28rs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gifAndy
    #29
  30. s3bow
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    s3bow Member

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    Who's that Andy ? Matthew ?

    Chris.
    #30
  31. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    why is your mate ditching his maf for a gt28rs?Is it a samco tip?Got both to fit mine. Which gt28rs is he using?.64 or .86?
    #31
  32. ANDYTQ
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    ANDYTQ Member

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    Chris yes it is Matt the mad fool in a quest for power.Ryan matt is going to use a s4 maf and the turbo is the same as Adam's (Addo) from A&M i think it is a hybrid possibly .64 if its the one which spools up earlier.Rich yes Matt is having a custom tip made.I know how long its takes to swap turbos,i swapped to k03s took me all weekend with other jobs,hands where cut to ribbons and getting around the transfer box is a /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif,but i learnt a lot of lessons doing it.Just need to finally sort out front mount kit with A&M boys first,i've been busy,they have been busy ,you know how it is and i am looking at the summer before i start work on it ,have to wait for Matt first. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gifAndy
    #32
  33. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Chris yes it is Matt the mad fool in a quest for power.Ryan matt is going to use a s4 maf and the turbo is the same as Adam's (Addo) from A&M i think it is a hybrid possibly .64 if its the one which spools up earlier.Rich yes Matt is having a custom tip made.I know how long its takes to swap turbos,i swapped to k03s took me all weekend with other jobs,hands where cut to ribbons and getting around the transfer box is a /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif,but i learnt a lot of lessons doing it.Just need to finally sort out front mount kit with A&M boys first,i've been busy,they have been busy ,you know how it is and i am looking at the summer before i start work on it ,have to wait for Matt first. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gifAndy

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I wouldnt let anyone else do it...much better doing it yourself! Yeah i know how it is... Ive still got jobs to do from when i fitted the IHI last August! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
    #33
  34. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Andy, we'll have to talk sometime. I've been thinking about a K-26 for a while. Like Rich though, I won't let anyone else do it. Do the work myself.

    @Rich, do you know of any problems with using fabricated stainless manifolds. Was thinking of buying one from the states and modifying it to accept the K-26 and orientate it properly. What do you think ?

    Chris.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Stainless tubular manifolds are not as string as cast manifolds, and are prone to fatigue cracks caused from engine vibration. A cast item is preferable.

    Rich
    #34
  35. s3bow
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    s3bow Member

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    Know of anyone except MTM that do one ?

    Chris.
    #35
  36. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Know of anyone except MTM that do one ?

    Chris.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    AmD do the sportec one which is the same turbo!
    #36
  37. s3bow
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    s3bow Member

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    You said on here before that someone has fitted the IHI to their S3. Who's that then ? Did he (or she) do it themselves ?

    Chris.
    #37
  38. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    You said on here before that someone has fitted the IHI to their S3. Who's that then ? Did he (or she) do it themselves ?

    Chris.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That would be Dave Redpath... hes not on here much...not seen him in months actually. AmD fitted it for him when he had a new engine fitted!
    #38
  39. s3bow
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    s3bow Member

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    Do Jabba give you the unions for the oil and water out of the turbo ? If so, what did you do, get flexible braided hoses crimped on to them ? What are the most fiddly parts ? And please don't say all of them !

    Chris.
    #39
  40. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Do Jabba give you the unions for the oil and water out of the turbo ? If so, what did you do, get flexible braided hoses crimped on to them ? What are the most fiddly parts ? And please don't say all of them !

    Chris.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    They supply the water pipes but not the oil.

    The oil return need the bolt holes slotting about 1 mm...i jsut enlarged them about 1 mm and it was fine, but an absolute nightmare to fit as it has to be done with the turbo in place and there is no room to work...even less with the S3!

    The oil feed pipe was the biggest problem throughout the whole install and took me a day to figure out it wasnt going to happen! They say that the OE oil feed pipe fits, but it simply doesnt. its a hrd line noty flexible and just doesnt go where it should, so i couldnt be arsed to f*ck about with it anymore so i jsut replaced it with a aeroquip heavy duty hose thats completely flexible and went exactly where i wanted it to.

    The TIP was a real nightmare too. Basically, the TT/S3 TIP wont work! You need a samco TIP and a 2.25" elbow (i used stainless pipe). I joined the elbow to the turbo with a silicone joiner hose, and then sleeved the 2.25" angle pipe with the samco TIP that i chopped the bottom off of and installed it all. Works a treat and looks OE from the top.

    Rich
    #40

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