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Update on tapping noise

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by campbell, Mar 17, 2010.

  1. Broken Byzan

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator
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    The head doesnt even need to come off to change the hydraulics tbh, It is fiddly and as stated the hardest bit is the timing belt due to access, then the cam chain mech, the rest is easy enough tbh

    Labour is probably right at garage prices
     
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  3. campbell

    campbell Member

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    Ok i think i will bite the bullet and pay the labour. At least if something goes wrong on it i can have a leg to stand on with the garage. The timing belt (kit) was done 20K miles ago along with new waterpump (metal impellor), is this worth changing too?

    I wouldnt attempt another timing belt as i done one on my previous car and it was a pain.

    With regards to the other bloke who said it was bottom end damage, i think there was reasons for him telling me that
     
  4. campbell

    campbell Member

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    UPDATE; The audi specilaist spoke to me today after he put it all back together (20 new hydraulic tappets) and the tapping noise is still present. They said the noise is coming from lower down i.e the bottom end. So it turns out the first bloke was right, but may have been a bit drastic informing me to get a recon engine in my opinion.

    He said he spent 10 hours labour doing this job, informed me he will squash that labour if i give them permission to investigate further (cylinder head off) so i said go ahead. Just because he was confident it was the tappets that was at fault. Bit miffed off to be honest as i thought i would have the car back today and it sounds a bit more money than expected
     
  5. Matt82

    Matt82 Active Member

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    what an epic fail

    20 tappets dont just start to tap one day requiring them to all be changed. as has been said, 99/100 its oil not getting to the head. oil pump issue, or most likely, blocked strainer.

    waste of time taking cars to garages
     
  6. Broken Byzan

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator
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    Why is he wasting his time and your money taking the head of, when 20 mins removing the sump will show a clogged pump and by now shavings from the damaged big end shells....
     
  7. Matt82

    Matt82 Active Member

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    id cry my eyes out tbh. you could put 40 tappets in that head, its going to make tons of noise if no oil is getting up there
     
  8. campbell

    campbell Member

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    thanks for your input Matt82. All i have to pay for is 20 new tappets which is £270 trade price so that doesnt really bother me if he informed me they was worn anyway. If you say oil pump issue, strainer etc- big job? expensive in labour?

    On the S3, to acces the bottom end bearings do you remove the sump or work from top?

    cheers
     
  9. Broken Byzan

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator
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    from the bottom, am i speaking to myself here ?

    I would say it has gone passed the oilpump strainer issuer if you already have bottom end noise. Look in sump, all will become clear....:readit:
     
  10. campbell

    campbell Member

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    I am speaking to you ByzanA4 too, sorry for any confusion. Im leaving it to the specilaist for the next few days and he will ring when he is sure of the problem. is anything to do with bottom end labour extensive? more than 10 hours they spent doing the tappets?
     
  11. warleydaddy

    warleydaddy Member

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    Bottom ends are nightmares...

    Just rebuilt my Fiesta RS Turbo enginge for the summer...

    Pistons (which you pro wont need)
    Machine the block
    New bearings/shells
    Crank regrind
    Oil pump
    Lighten and balancing
    ARP bolts
    Sump gasket
    Oil
    Oil filter

    Unfortunatly it all adds up when you start down there..
    :bye:
     
  12. Matt82

    Matt82 Active Member

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    honestly, i think your "specialist" is having you on. tell him to get in the sump, hes wasted enough time and money. people like that make owning "old" cars more of a pain than it needs to be
     
  13. campbell

    campbell Member

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    Matt82 you think i should ring him up and say this!?

    They admitted without saying that their own diagnosis was wronge hence why he scrapped me paying for the labour, something which i would of argued with paying. What can be seen from a S3 sump removed then?
     
  14. Sandip

    Sandip Well-Known Member

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    If all this was happening to me campbell i wouldn't even be paying for the parts let alone the labour. Hope you don't lose anymore cash bud.
     
  15. Matt82

    Matt82 Active Member

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    tell them this

    basically the original and the new tappets were noisy due to a lack of oil getting into the head so the tappets were not pumping up hence the noise

    the second set of tappets went in, still no oil getting to the head so they were still noisy

    you have to have a look at why there is no oil getting to the head.

    the garage will have oil pressure testing gear. id bet money the oil pressure is low.

    these engines love to produce sludge mainly due to audis bad service intervals. the oil pump's function is to pump the oil around the engine. there is a strainer (like a seive) which the oil goes through as it gets sucked into the pump

    this strainer can end up being blocked with bits of sludge.

    the sump has to come down, strainer removed and cleaned if there is signs of it being blocked causing low oil pressure.

    the oil pressure needs to be tested before you go any further as, like has been said, youre in a position where damage can occur to major engine components. tappets, though, can run dry and take it. theyre pretty hardy and its the head that goes dry first.

     
  16. Matt82

    Matt82 Active Member

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    campbell, id give him a ring if you like, car types have to help each other out.

    whats his name and number and ill pick his brain a bit
     
  17. campbell

    campbell Member

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    Sorry for long reply, still at work. From the start he said the oil pressure was bob on, no loss of pressure.


    Thanks for the offer Matt82, not sure if you or i should step on their toes. Dont really want them getting miffed off because im on their back every day, surely as a specialist they would drop the sump first!?
     
  18. Welly

    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    You would think so, but I agree with the lack of oil pressure in the head. These engines rattle like hell when oil pressure is low at the top end - I know because I've heard it myself.

    Three likely causes.

    1) Blocked oil strainer. Common as the 1.8t has a silicone sump gasket, and bits flake off over time.

    2) Shagged oil pump. Had experience of this - this was what caused my tapping.

    3) Oil gallery/oil way blockage. Not so likely this one....
     
  19. Welly

    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    Also, it's pretty obvious when oil is in the head, open the oil cap and look in, you should see it splashing about up there!

    I guess it depends on how the pressure was tested....

    Not saying the bloke is wrong - it just seems most likely to me.
     
  20. campbell

    campbell Member

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    I think the best bet is for me to ring the place up tomorrow late afternoon and ask for an update of whats gone on, with what they have carried out etc. I dont really want to step on their toes at this point after they said they would be in touch in the next few days, i think they have been fair with just charging me just for the tappets and no labour. After all the tappets were worn he informed, plus i have had their courtesy car for over a week and still will have to the job is complete.

    The first thing the place did was test the oil pressure and it was bob on, not really had any experience of the internals of my engine so im learning all the time from your comments

    Cheers
     
  21. Welly

    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    I think thats fair mate to be honest. They've been good to you so far, so like you said, don't step on their toes.

    Worry about it when it becomes a problem. I'm sure they'll sort it for you.

    If not, then get on your high horse!:icon_thumright:
     
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  23. campbell

    campbell Member

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    Cheers Pal.

    There is no doubt i will get on my high horse if the situation arises, just hope it doesnt cost the earth to fix it! Just ordered R32 anti roll bars from VW and got myself some new OEM mats for the fronts to treat the car because i was expecting it back tues ha ha!
     
  24. campbell

    campbell Member

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    UPDATE:

    I have a bent con rod! they spent 5hours to get tot this stage, will need 5hours to put it all back together approx. They phoned to question how far i wanted to go with replacing parts while its apart. Do i get second hand conrod for approx £50, or 4 from audi at £410? i think second hand one!


    Also, do i changed piston rings on all four?
    Any other parts i should consider while its apart? any opinion or suggestions are most appreciated


    cheers

    Campbell
     
    #62 campbell, Apr 12, 2010
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2010
  25. Welly

    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    Ouch, I truely feel your pain mate, I really do.

    What's the mileage on the car, and did it smoke on before you took it in? If the mileage is reasonable (Up to and including 100K) and it didn't smoke, don't worry about them.

    Have they got any idea of the cause of the con rod bend? Your situation is so similar to mine (except mine was so bent it shagged the block as well! D'oh!).

    Mine was running Revo software as well.

    When I found the cause of the problem was a bent rod, I asked myself was it worth fitting standard rods again. Bottom line - it's bent one. This means it can bend another one. The standard rods in the S3 engine are sh1te. Why why why would you build an engine with a forged crank, and forged pistons, and then join them together with rubbish? If standard rods from Audi are £41 each, and you are considering replacing all four, then it's only an extra £100. Plus then you'll need to buy big end shells for them (as you would anyway with standard rods).

    I chose to cough up the £300 ish quid for IE Rods from Badger5, and I would suggest you do the same.

    OK - extra spend I grant you. BUT (and this is a big but) how would you feel having all this work done, and then bending another rod, and then having to go through it all again.

    That was my thought process and £300 for piece of mind was £300 well spent.
     
    #63 Welly, Apr 12, 2010
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2010
  26. Welly

    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    Spooly spooly, bendy bendy.....

    [​IMG]
     
  27. campbell

    campbell Member

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    The car smoke a little when i took it in, the car is on 82k and is revo`d. So you think its worth replacing the conrods with 4new IE rods? sorry but what are IE rods, uprated? How quick is badger 5 at delivery?

    Cheers
     
  28. Welly

    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    A little is acceptable on a turbo engine, I suspect it's likely to be turbo related smoke.

    Yes I do personally think it's worth replacing them. IE Rods are forged rods - see picture below for comparison with standard.

    You'd have to drop him an email or call him. Contact info is on http://www.badger5.co.uk/, however I have dropped him a PM to have a look at this thread so he may well post.

    [​IMG]
     
  29. Welly

    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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  30. campbell

    campbell Member

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    hell they look a billion times stronger than OEM rods, would definitely consider this now. thanks for the quick reply too Welly.

    You would agree it sounds like the piston rings need replacing too and honing the bores out if the car is smoking?
     
  31. Welly

    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    I'd say it's unlikely for the rings to be in bad condition after 82K to be honest. I took the pistons out of a 125K engine and the were fine.

    I would say that the rings are likely to be fine, and that the source of the smoke is turbo. Small amounts of smoke are not uncommon from a turbo engine....

    However - if you want to replace them then do. Again, it's down to piece of mind. If you'd be happier replacing them then do it. I wouldn't personally.
     
  32. campbell

    campbell Member

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    Does badger 5 supply big end bearings too, would be ideal if ordered in one go?
     
  33. Welly

    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    Pass.... I would of thought so if necessary but don't quote me on it.
     
  34. Welly

    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    Those ACL ones on ebay are cheaper than you will get them from Audi so bear that in mind.
     
  35. campbell

    campbell Member

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    Cheers Welly.

    So what i need is: Forged conrods, possible piston rings, big end shells, possible oil pump while its out?
     
  36. Andrew@A.L.D

    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    I had the same problem as you campbell and ended up getting a good used head as my head was starved of oil and bore the guides and tappet bore out

    I"ve now rebuild it with Ported head, one piece valves, IE Rods, JR Pistons, Mk4 TDI crank ( stoker kit ) 2067cc and a single mass steel flywheel and its cost me less than it would to get someone else to rebuild it
     
  37. campbell

    campbell Member

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    i would love to do the same Andrew but i need a permanent car for work purposes (the garaged supplied it to me).

    Your car will go well with all the kit in it, what power and torque will that produce or are you hoping for?
     
  38. S3 Jock

    S3 Jock Member

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    A point on the standard (ie OEM) rods. They are sufficient for a standard car, running standard boost, at either 210 or 225 bhp.
    In all my years with turbo/high performance road cars, the ONLY time I have come across engine problems like holed pistons & bent roads is when a car has been chipped (or remapped as it is called these days.)

    As you are so far in it is probably worth changing your rods to uprated one and changing out the shells while they are in that far.

    I wouldn't reccomend touching the rings because the block would need honed to allow the new rings to run in properly, and with the block in the engine (crank still in situ) it is not feasible to do this job properly, or to get the block cleaned up properly afterwards.

    BUT I would recommend taking measurements of the bores using an internal micrometer and measuring the ring gaps, just so you know whats what before you put it all back together.
    In addition to this you could get you head pressure checked before it goes back on so you know its integrity too.

    Up to you.......I'm sure others will disagree but good luck and I hope this gets you back on the road.

    It's a shame to say it, but dropping the sump long before now would have shown up the culprit quite quickly and saved you a few quid and days.
     
  39. Andrew@A.L.D

    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    Still running a K04 So not expecting massive power and torque, it will be much more nicer to drive with the early spool of the turbo and will be more revvy due to the light weight flywheel
     
  40. campbell

    campbell Member

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    RIght i have ordered the forged con rods from Badger 5 and calico big end bearings.

    I am debating whether to order a new oil pump, strainer, and piston ring kit (£32 each cylinder from audi)?
     
  41. campbell

    campbell Member

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    by the way it only smoked while this problem started, no smoke beforehand
     
  42. Welly

    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    As I said, I wouldn't personally.

    Two reasons.

    1) Piston rings weren't suspect when the car went in. A little smoke is OK, as I said, I'd expect to see that from a turbo. AT the mileage yours has done, they should be A OK.

    2) You/they will have to deglaze the bore with a honing tool when fitting new rings. Not only does this mean more work and extra cost AGAIN (on top of the ring kit), but it's not the best idea, and not easy to do this with the crank in situ.

    Oil pump may be worth doing. That would be money well spent.
     

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