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Understeer

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by JamesA3, Mar 29, 2004.

  1. JamesA3
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    JamesA3 Member

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    Just gone for a spin try to get the ESP light to come on and one thing I have noticed is the A3 suffers from major understeer if you get on the throttle to early but the ESP light never came on even when I was loosing traction, is this ok?

    I have the 1.8T Quattro, does the S3 have better suspension and brakes etc
    #1
  2. ELIASGK74
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    ELIASGK74 Member

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    S3 SUSPENSION AND BRAKES ARE BETTER.
    I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH UNDERSTEER WITH OR NOT ESP.
    I THING YOU MUST CHECK IT IN VAGCOM(ESP,HALDEX...).
    #2
  3. Grant
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    Grant Well-Known Member

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    Even ESP can't help you if you are going sideways!
    #3
  4. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Drill said:

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif Yes, but an S3 suspension in an A3TQ feels MUCH better than the std setup /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Maybe so..but you can't polish a turd!
    The inherent chassis set up needs a LOT of attention to turn it from understeering blancmange, into something truly grippy and neutral! - which it should have been from the factory!
    #4
  5. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Ess_Three said:
    Which it should have been from the factory!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There would have been no fun in that tho would there!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #5
  6. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    RichA3Turbo said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ess_Three said:
    Which it should have been from the factory!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There would have been no fun in that tho would there!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Exactly, imagine all that money you would have burning a whole in your pocket /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    If anything I would expect a bit more understeer on a TDI due to the increased front end weight.
    #6
  7. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    i changed the back roll bar to 16mm which did improve things, but wanted more. i've just fitted the neuspeed front and rear bars - 21mm front and 19mm back to my S3 - this is a MAJOR improvement with the understeer and the roll, and makes the car much more cart like in the steering. makes me laugh every roundabout now..

    both bars supplied and fitted for £450 by awesome gti, and gave much better improvement in handling than the lowered springs and bilsteins that cost more to do.

    add in -1.5deg neg camber each side and 1mm toe out and the car is really something else.

    i can highly recommend the neuspeed bars. the only down side is that the silastic bushes that come with the bars are quite harsh so there is increased suspension noise over very hard bumps and big pot holes
    #7
  8. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Ess_Three said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Gambba said:

    Exactly, imagine all that money you would have burning a whole in your pocket /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah, but why can't Audi make a hard-core car for proper enthusiasts?
    Even the RS4 / RS6 is a missed opportunity...sure they are great at what they do...but they are not great drivers cars.

    Why can't Audi get the handling right on an S3?
    Why can't they offer something a bit silly?
    Sure, you'll have to pay for it...but I'd join the queue.
    Then I wouldn't have money burning a hole in my pocket as I'd be spending it all on the car!!

    Honda can do it with the Integra Type-R...whay can't Audi?

    A great interior and good build quality can only make up for so much...and they can't add excitement, now can they?



    [/ QUOTE ]

    It is extremely fustrating that Audi have no real challenger to the driving enthusiasts cars. I love the look of the RS4 and RS6 which is really understated but feel that they wouldn't be top of my list as much as I love the looks, power and build quality.....a real shame.

    One day I hope they will produce a car which is on the scary side rather than the safe /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/groovy.gif
    #8
  9. lost_it
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    lost_it Member

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    In my view we are all missing the point here, the cars are designed to be as safe as possible for Mr & Mrs Average driver.
    These people never understand osteer or understeer and if you dont know what you are doing then understeer is the safer way to go. (natural instinct is to back off and therefore transfer weight and car turns).
    If you want and car for you, then you have to modify it or buy something like a kit car.

    I always thought that an enthuist would ask how can i change my driving style to get the best out of what i have,

    These cars are built for mass consumption not for the few..

    BTW I have an S3, that i regularily run at club days..
    only mod is lowered suspension, chip and some decent tyres and green stuff pads.. it laps faster than the guys hotted up special with coil overs and brembo brakes, chip and exhaust.

    Think more about how to drive than how to modify




    #9
  10. JamesA3
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    JamesA3 Member

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    I know what you mean but it would be good if Audi made an A3 with 350+bhp!!
    #10
  11. Khufu
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    Khufu Active Member

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    Maybe Audi are still a bit cautious after the bad press about the early TT suffering from oversteer?
    #11
  12. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    lost_it said:
    If you want and car for you, then you have to modify it or buy something like a kit car.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Indeed...but an opportunity missed surely?
    Why shouldn't Audi offer something for the true enthusiast?
    Other manufacturers do it...why not Audi?
    There's a market for it surely...from Integra Type-R, through Focus RS to Evo 8 etc.


    [ QUOTE ]

    I always thought that an enthuist would ask how can i change my driving style to get the best out of what i have,


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, if I may be so blunt...that's a load of old hogwash!

    The S3 inherently understeers...it has not got a class leading chassis, and you can change your driving style as much as you like but it all comes back to the same thing...'you can't polish a turd'. The handling is not class leading / inspiring / rewarding...and there is little that ammending your driving style can do to solve that.

    The 'correct' driving style for an S3 is only the correct driving style for ANY front engined / fwd (or predominantly FWD) car....slow in, fast out.
    Nothing special required.


    [ QUOTE ]

    These cars are built for mass consumption not for the few..


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Indeed so...which is a shame.
    Maybe if it were built for the few, it would be 'fun' to drive.


    [ QUOTE ]

    BTW I have an S3, that i regularily run at club days..
    only mod is lowered suspension, chip and some decent tyres and green stuff pads.. it laps faster than the guys hotted up special with coil overs and brembo brakes, chip and exhaust.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    And, prey tell, what is the opposition driving?

    I'm not saying driver input isn't important...but with the same driver in several cars, a true reflection of a cars character can be drawn...


    [ QUOTE ]

    Think more about how to drive than how to modify


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Allrighty...
    Over the years, I have completed in several rounds of the national Hillclimb Championship, as well as several Sprints, I have built several extremely capable fast road / track cars including a Vauxhall Nova many years ago that was lapping Castle Combe quicker than Escort Cosworths / Caterhams - with me driving. (using only a 1.6 SOCH 8v engine)
    I don't proclaim to be a great driver...but I know a few things about getting a car to handle, and equally as much about piloting my own car...

    My Golf GTI is a Mk3 16v that is consistantly quicker on the twisties than my S3...so lets re-cap...a FWD VW with 170BHP quicker than a 270BHP 4WD S3? Surely not...
    Why?
    Because I drive the Golf to my limits as the car is set up for it (OK it's not a standard GTI!)...in the S3 I drive it to the cars limits and the bloody thing prevents me from doing what I want in it.


    So, don't give me all this waffle about learning how to drive...if the car is holding you back, you need to sort it. Nothing to do with ammending the driving...you can't drive round a badly set up car, no matter what you try...a badly handling car WILL cost you time. Period.
    You can't defeat physics...no matter how good a driver you think you are!



    #12
  13. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    Have to agree with Glen on all points there.

    Lost it you are way off the mark in my eyes. Why offer a sports brand which is not able to compete with the other sports brands on the market?! Audi deliberately went of the way with the S4 to be 1 hp up on the M3, but what was the points as the two cars are in very different leagues in my opinion.

    I understand very well how to drive, and that for my mother understeer is far better than oversteer, but when a company clearly make a statement about their cars by offering three ranges, standard, S and RS, then surely one of them should be for an enthusiast...no?
    #13
  14. miker
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    miker Member

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    My Y2000 S3 used to understeer until I learn't how to handle it better and I am still learning. One of the things that works is if you keep on the throttle until much later than you may dare on a public road. You lift off or brake almost a second before turning in and when you turn in you do it progressively, this promotes the oversteer. Then you opposite lock and power through it and sometimes it straightens up and sometimes it power slides all 4 wheels. Either way its good spirited fun. p.s. this must be done with ESP off of course.

    There is a guy called big john who will show you on a days course how to really drive an S3.

    Incidentally the 1st post here mentions the ESP not coming on. Well just for reference, if I understeer on any roundabout, with ESP on, the ESP with cut in and apply ABS on the one brake to put pressure on the correct tread.
    #14
  15. JamesA3
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    JamesA3 Member

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    thanks for all the info lads, I'm just getting used to driving a car of this level and finding out what it can and can't do, I used to drive a 306 diesel prior to this so its a real step up!

    I do feel the 1.8T Quattro is a quick car but lacks something
    #15
  16. cybrey
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    cybrey Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    James M said:
    I do feel the 1.8T Quattro is a quick car but lacks something

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm guessing it isn't chipped. All the people on here who've had it chipped will tell you that the car is missing something till you get it done.
    #16
  17. Mike.M
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    Mike.M Well-Known Member

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    Saving for the CHIP..........oh yes!!
    #17
  18. JamesA3
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    JamesA3 Member

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    for a standard 1.8TQ is 0-60 in 7.2secs 140 max is that about right?
    #18
  19. JamesA3
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    JamesA3 Member

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    its a 2000 X, you will have to excuse my ignorance but I don't know the difference between face lift or not

    this is mine

    [​IMG]
    #19
  20. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    facelift! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    #20
  21. Drill
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    Drill Member

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    James, easiest way to tell if it's facelifted or not is by the head and rear lights. The rear lights have clear spaces for the blinkers as well as the reverse lights and the facelift headlights are of a one piece design with ellipsoid main lights such as yours. The pre-facelift lights had two pieces, one headlight and a seperate blinker /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    And the car looks great dude, love the rims /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #21
  22. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Madix said:
    My Y2000 S3 used to understeer until I learn't how to handle it better and I am still learning. One of the things that works is if you keep on the throttle until much later than you may dare on a public road. You lift off or brake almost a second before turning in and when you turn in you do it progressively, this promotes the oversteer. Then you opposite lock and power through it and sometimes it straightens up and sometimes it power slides all 4 wheels. Either way its good spirited fun. p.s. this must be done with ESP off of course.

    There is a guy called big john who will show you on a days course how to really drive an S3.

    Incidentally the 1st post here mentions the ESP not coming on. Well just for reference, if I understeer on any roundabout, with ESP on, the ESP with cut in and apply ABS on the one brake to put pressure on the correct tread.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Madix, you are quite right in what you are saying, but...yes there is always a but when I'm typing anything!
    BUT the fact still remains that the car understeers badly.

    My statement is based on similar sized cars on the market which have far superior chassis dynamics the any of Audi's range.

    P.S. Power sliding is not the quickest way round a corner /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #22
  23. Theodore
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    Theodore New Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    dunk said:
    i changed the back roll bar to 16mm which did improve things, but wanted more. i've just fitted the neuspeed front and rear bars - 21mm front and 19mm back to my S3 - this is a MAJOR improvement with the understeer and the roll, and makes the car much more cart like in the steering. makes me laugh every roundabout now..

    both bars supplied and fitted for £450 by awesome gti, and gave much better improvement in handling than the lowered springs and bilsteins that cost more to do.

    add in -1.5deg neg camber each side and 1mm toe out and the car is really something else.

    i can highly recommend the neuspeed bars. the only down side is that the silastic bushes that come with the bars are quite harsh so there is increased suspension noise over very hard bumps and big pot holes

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Hi.
    You could put 23mm front, 19mm rear, bars from Golf R32. There are OK.
    I put them on my 4WD Leon and payed 210 Euros+ 100 fitting, including alignment.
    How could change the camber, because I want to do the same on my car.
    Regards.
    Theodore.
    #23
  24. audidude
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    audidude New Member

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    I'm with Ess_three through this thread.

    There are PLENTY of better handling AWD rockets out there is that is the only endpoint you are seeking:

    Suby WRX
    Mitsi Evo
    Skyline GTR

    and they are a more fun drive on the track too.

    S3 an understeerer? Darn right - too heavy in front to do anything else. That's why I couldn't shake off a couple of (admittedly worked and better driven) Mk I GTI Golfs at my last track outing. I was a LOT slower into corners and power application at times limited by understeer while they reeled me in - then my better straight line speed pulled me away.

    But the "Audi" qualities keep me in love for overall ownership pleasure, but no way can I fool myself I have a dynamic razoredged drivers dream.

    Shop elsewhere if that's what you want.

    Don't criticise Audi for not producing something they never set out to produce.

    Cheers
    #24
  25. Drill
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    Drill Member

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    No prob James, I was there once myself /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #25
  26. miker
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    miker Member

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    Fair point Gambba ..
    #26

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