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understeer!!

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by jediknight, Dec 11, 2004.

  1. jediknight
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    jediknight Member

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    WTF

    these cars are supposed to be good at cornering. but i come into a roundabout doing the same speed as my corrado and it understeers lots lots more!!

    how can i stop this? cause there is no way im keeping the car if it handles this bad! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burningmad.gif

    camber adjustments should sort it??

    has anyone else done anything about it??

    ta
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  2. JamesA3
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    JamesA3 Member

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    I thought that when I got my A3, from what I've read a negative camber adjustment and bigger ARB's do the trick.
    #2
  3. 28v6
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    28v6 Guest

    Or..... It may be that you all need a Biesbarth Alignment done to set the car up, USUALLY....Audis don't have that type of problem unless your name is Rohl or Mouton.. I'd get the car aligned for satisfaction more than anything else....

    Try that first to see what your settings are....
    #3
  4. FactionOne
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    FactionOne Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I'm about two years from buying anything with an "S" badge on it at the moment, so this probably doesn't count for much...

    But if it's to be an S3, some 18" Rims, Neuspeed ARBs, H&R Springs, Bilstein Dampers and Poweflex Bushes are on the mod-list for it already.

    ...Anyone who says they don't know what they're driving next is either mad or a fibber! (apart from those with a shiny new C4S!) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

    Regards,

    Rob.
    #4
  5. ImS3ola
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    ImS3ola Member

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    Unfortunately a big problem with this car. I'm pootling around in London traffic most of the time, but if I lived in an area with decent driveable roads, a suspension upgrade would definitely be needed.

    If you do a search for suspension upgrades, you'll find loadsa info on the usual suspects: Bilstein/koni dampers, H&R/Eibach springs, uprated ARBs and adjustable tie bars. If you go the whole hog though, it's going to cost in the region of £1500 including fitting /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif
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  6. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    you need to do 2 main things:

    1) increase the grip at the front end - get lots of negative camber - the s3 can ususally manage about -1.5deg each side, but to get even camber you have to move the subframe about with each bottom ball joint set to the max negative camber

    2) increase the rear anti-roll bar relative to the front, but you can increase both to reduce roll - the rear needs to be about 1.5 to 2 x increase in stiffness relative to the front
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  7. jediknight
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    jediknight Member

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    bingo wrote this in my other thread

    You can dial out most of the understeer by fitting a golf r32 rear anti roll bar and bushes then fit powerflex front roll bar bushes in place of the standard ones to harden up the front end a little and then the cornering becomes a revelation all for less than £100.
    Cheers "Bingo"

    does that sound right? where can i get those parts for under £100?

    ta
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  8. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    the r32 rear arb improves things a bit, but nowhere near as much as the neuspeed front and rear bars together - these dramatically reduce roll and almost remove the understeer and are a huge improvement over the r32 rear bar alone.
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  9. nervus
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    nervus Active Member

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    Can the ARB's be fitted reatively easily or do the need an expert?
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  10. jediknight
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    jediknight Member

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    Thanks for the replies

    I dont really want to change the suspension at the moment. but fitting ARBs would be ok if they really do the job.

    any good suppliers / prices for the neuspeed ones?
    #10
  11. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    AndrewUkR6 said:
    i very much agree... my A3 seems reasonably planted on sweeping long bends - but roundabouts are terrible.

    If I hit them at what Id consider a relatively low speed, it understeers terribly, the whole car slides and Ive had a few close calls with the outside of the roundabout! (especially in the wet). It does little to inspire confidence in the car.

    I asked rich about this and he mentioned bigger wheels and camber adjustment. I suppose also the best rubber you can buy; but in my oppinion the A3 is just not a chuckable car in standard form.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    larger wheels help on the S3... But on the S3, it already has wider wheels. Fitting softer tyres helps (toyo, Eagle F1's .etc) but nothing will do as much as just replacing the suspension for a decent set of uprated springs and shocks, arb's and a setup to match!

    Cheers

    Rich
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  12. StephaneS
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    StephaneS Member

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    #12
  13. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    jedi-knight83 said:
    WTF

    these cars are supposed to be good at cornering. but i come into a roundabout doing the same speed as my corrado and it understeers lots lots more!!

    how can i stop this? cause there is no way im keeping the car if it handles this bad! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burningmad.gif

    camber adjustments should sort it??

    has anyone else done anything about it??

    ta

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The only way to 'fix' it is to change the lot...springs, dampers, ARBs and suspension settings.
    That works...but costs.
    If you do the lot, you'll have a car that will stick with the best of the Evos and Subarus on the twisties though...from experience!

    To be honest...the main problem is likely to be your driving style.
    The S3 respons well to slow in, fast out...different style to the Corrado...I know, I've had both.

    If you brake, get back on the power as you turn in, and make the Haldex work, you'll get rid of a lot of the understeer...you just have to make the chassis work.

    Carrying more corner speed under power needs better tyres, suspension and front negative camber...

    If you up your rear tyre pressures (to somewhrer near the settings for 4 passengers) and leavce the fronts relatively soft (say, the setting for 2 passengers) you will get a better balance.

    Add this to slow in, fast out...and you'll get on better.

    Don't forget...quattro doesn't give you any more grip than 2WD.
    The corrado runs a lot of front negative camber (about -1.5 degrees per side) and hence has decent grip.
    What the quattro gives you is better drive...hence slow in, fast out, and use the drive...
    Get it back on boost, get the chassis loaded up, get turned in...and make the bloody thing work!

    Very easy to spend money and still have an understeering car...learing how to get the best out of it costs nothing!
    #13
  14. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    r32 bar is a direct swap with the r32 bushes, but i put it on then replaced front/rear with the neuspeed stuff cos i still wasnt happy with the understeer.

    #14
  15. jediknight
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    jediknight Member

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    but it did improce it over the standard set up right?

    i just dont want to replace all the suspension components yet. and after reading all the above from ess three it seems i would need to do this if fitting much stiffer ARBs such as neuspeed
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  16. mdwyer
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    mdwyer Member

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    Hi ,
    I have the same problem and it's driving me nuts,have been told to change the tyres from p zeros to F1 on another site now it's change all the metal bits as well ,never happened in my old 90q pherhaps the answer is a a proper 4 wheel drive arrangement have been told the Haldrex can be modified to run constantly and up to 50/50 by a dash mounted swich,does any body know anything about this.
    Merdock
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  17. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    yes it made a small improvement, but you also need to make sure you have maximum negative front camber (and equal both sides) with a small amount of toe out - this will maximise the front end grip
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  18. jediknight
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    jediknight Member

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    so if i was to lower the car would i need to get the geometry all set up aswell. i.e putting lowering springs on would surely give it too much neg camber.

    What shocks should i get?? EssThree recomends Bilstein... what about koni top adjustable though??

    Definately going for H&R springs!!

    Where do i get this adjustable tie bar and is it easy to fit?

    I can happily change the springs and shocks myself and get it 4 wheels aligned after i have done that.

    my list so far.

    H&R springs
    http://www.deutscheperformance.co.uk/pages/products/product_info.mhtml?id=29438

    Koni / Bilstein Shocks?? prices anyone??
    4 koni shocks are £380 on this site and then i can sell or bin the crap springs that comes with the kit
    http://www.larkspeed.com/index.pl?c=KONIEQUIPADSUSPENKITS&p=261781&a=i

    thanks
    #18
  19. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    more grippy tyres do help a lot with the understeer

    pirelli p zero nero understeer badly, and i can provoke the back end to break away easily

    bridgestone so3 are very good and grippy, even in the wet

    goodyear f1 gsd3 are also very good with much less understeer

    #19
  20. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    dont bother with the lockable haldex controller unless you have significantly more power than standard - its very expensive

    look at the ace competition one rather than a locked/unlocked one

    http://www.ace-competition.se/index.php?page=haldex&lang=eng

    its developed by haldex and is more rear biassed but without needing a manual switch - its affected by throttle position and speed
    #20
  21. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    i think the koni dampers are slightly stiffer - although they are adjustable this is only the rebound.

    if you lower the car, the rear negative camber gets worse - mine is lowered about 30mm with quattro gmbh springs and both had more than 2 deg negative camber

    main effects are cosmetic, although you may get more uneven rear tyre wear, and you can get slighly unpredictable handling at the rear on the limit with that much negative camber.

    the more you lower the car, the more negative camber you get, although you need to lower the car by 25-30mm all round to enable about 1.5deg negative camber at the front which is enough.
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  22. jediknight
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    jediknight Member

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    so if i lowered 30mm all round on the H&R springs would i still need to get the geometry lined up afterwards? or does that drop give it perfect camber without having to touch it again.

    does the rear look really naff with camber then?
    #22
  23. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    jedi-knight83 said:
    so if i lowered 30mm all round on the H&R springs would i still need to get the geometry lined up afterwards? or does that drop give it perfect camber without having to touch it again.

    does the rear look really naff with camber then?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    When you lower the S3 without using adjustable tie bars, the rear end looks like something has collapsed... Really is pretty drastic!

    Rich
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  24. jediknight
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    jediknight Member

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    and those tie bars are about £250 right?

    are there many different suppliers for them?
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  25. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    jedi-knight83 said:
    and those tie bars are about £250 right?

    are there many different suppliers for them?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I can do them for you for £237.50vat with Audi-Sport 5% Discount.

    Rich
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  26. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    jedi-knight83 said:
    so if i lowered 30mm all round on the H&R springs would i still need to get the geometry lined up afterwards? or does that drop give it perfect camber without having to touch it again.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes, of course. The toe settings will be all to pot, and the camber uis very likely not going to be equal aftet lowering.

    Even then, you are going to have to mess about with the bottom ball joints to get a bit more negative camber.


    [ QUOTE ]

    does the rear look really naff with camber then?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The looking naff bit is the least of your worries!

    Too much negative camber at the rear will lunch the inside edges of the tyres (from experience) and lead to unpredictable handling.
    Under power, the rear will weave about, it will not turn in predictably, and will not be pleasant to drive.
    Get the adjustable tie bars and get the camber back out to about -0.5 - 1.0 degrees of negative per side, and you have enough to ensure the tyres sit flat under cornering + power on situations, enough to give decent lateral grip with the suspension still working and no adverse tyre wear...this is in addition to much more feel and predictable handling.

    I ran without adjustable tie bars for long enough...the difference is well worth the money doing it right.
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  27. jediknight
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    jediknight Member

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    ah essthree again.. thanks. Kevheywire was telling me to listen to you when i spoke ti him last night! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    So i can get about -1.0 camber on standard springs.. what can i get ...or what do i want when its lowered.. -1.5 ?

    any other suppliers for the tie bars!? £237 seems alot..;.but then again i dont really know what they are or how they work so maybe its a bargin!?
    #27
  28. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    jedi-knight83 said:
    any other suppliers for the tie bars!? £237 seems alot..;.but then again i dont really know what they are or how they work so maybe its a bargin!?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Retail price for these is £250+vat

    Rich
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  29. DuncS3
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    DuncS3 Member

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    H&Rs is a bigger drop

    Dunc
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  30. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    PaulS3 said:

    unless you had the Quattro GmbH lowered set up from factory, then you dont need them /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif and get perfect even tyre wear. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I would be sceptical there...
    I can't believe that the 20mm drop GmbH springs give doesn't affect either the tyre wear or the on the limit predictability.

    But, not having tried them...I can't say for sure...
    #30

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