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Turbo upgrade :)

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by Lee Goodall, Apr 28, 2008.

  1. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 9, 2008]
    I have one you could borrow if needs be,lol

    as my car isnt going anywhere at the mo:doctor:
  2. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 9, 2008]
    Should be ok cheers lol

    If it doesn't turn up mine will just be off the scale for a bit!
  3. Andy.B
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    Andy.B Member

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    [Dec 9, 2008]
    Cant wait to see what you guys get out of these turbos... gives me a good idea what is avalible with my T28 when it goes back on. Hopefully i can get a nackered engine to help me mock up a few more parts to tidy it up before it goes on my engine.
  4. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 9, 2008]
    tbh i dont think you should have any problems seeing the full power of your T28 kit, as long as the people out there can map it properly.

    I have to say i'm as yet unconvinced by the maps etc that ive seen around here, and until i see good solid figures coming from a sensible spec engine i'll remain skeptical. The figures are there for the TT/S3/Cupra motor, but ive never seen an A4 motor make the power with a similar spec engine...

    Out of interest who do you plan to get to map the motor, and how much power are you expecting? That T28 must be good for 300hp? I'm sure the Nissan S14's T28 is good for that sort of power level anyway...

    Also Lee: Your turbo isnt as high spec as Byzans is it?
  5. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 9, 2008]
    aragorn, Lee has the sp51r, its a cross between a k03s and ko4-15 iirc.

    Larger than K04 compressor, but std k03 exducer
    I had one once but never got it mapped to see the potential of it.
  6. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 9, 2008]
    Yeah Byzan's right.. I'm hoping for a reliable 220 hp ish but believe the SP51R is capable of a bit more than that. I'm going to be guided by Chipped UK but I'm not aiming to max out the turbo.

    Byzan didn't yours eat a jubilee clip??.. you have no luck with turbos do you?!
  7. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 9, 2008]
    :ermm::mad::redface:
  8. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 9, 2008]
    .. that's why you can re-use the K03 exhaust turbine housing.
  9. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 9, 2008]
    Sorry mate :whistle2:
  10. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 9, 2008]
    indeed, its why i am hoping at least my enlarged exhaust housing is good, as the X uses the same compressor but a larger exducer. But some of the additional cost is the machining, which i hope to avoid.

    I think 220 is more than reasonable tbh
  11. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 9, 2008]
    220 hp should keep me happy for a while. I'll be pleased with that :)
  12. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 9, 2008]
    The exhaust housing seems like a solid bit of kit.. bet it'll be fine.
  13. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 10, 2008]
    Less than 24 hours and it's here. Customer service from Demon Tweeks is top..

    [​IMG]
  14. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 11, 2008]
    Gauges swapped and functioning correctly.

    Just want to get my wheel alignment sorted now and then I've ticked all the boxes on my pre-map check list.

    All ready for Saturday.
  15. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 11, 2008]
    :D good stuff!

    I'm needing to get the alignment done on ours too, after changing those front arms...

    I'll probably get the new tyres fitted and the alignment done at the same time though, so i need to get my finger out and paint the other two rims!
  16. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 11, 2008]
    Yeah mine needs doing as it's been slightly off since I replaced the lower ball joints and ARB links.

    I've worked through a long list over the past few weeks/months but motivation isn't high in this weather!!
  17. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 15, 2008]
    Got to Chipped UK 10am Saturday morning after a heavy night out and was feeling very sorry for myself!!

    [​IMG]

    After a discussion about what sort of power I wanted and a run through modifications etc it was on the rollers for a pre-map power run.

    I didn't get a print out of the primary figures but from memory I think it was about 144 BHP ish.

    My aim was approximately 220 BHP.

    After a couple more runs we found that me being a bit of a plank had overlooked getting an upgraded spring for my Forge DV valve.

    I managed 208 BHP but this was down to the fact that the DV valve wouldn't hold any more boost!!

    The general idea is that with the new spring I should be making 220 - 230 BHP on my new map. Chipped UK said to go back to the VAG rolling road day in January and they'll run it again to see what she can do with the correct spring.

    Here's Chipped UK's video of the run producing 208 BHP (performance graph included at the end of the video). Also please read the attached video info..

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=acQbuQHSbQA

    Play with sound.. it makes me smile :)
  18. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 15, 2008]
    Good stuff, how much extra power has the turbo given you over what a stock K03 could make?

    I've always said aftermarket DV's are a waste of money, 710N is 20quid, buy one of those.

    No sound just now, i'll have a listen later on once i'm home!
  19. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 15, 2008]
    If I achieve what they have predicted then I'm looking at 220 - 230 HP and you rarely see a K03 over 200 HP so 20 - 30 BHP more. It would possibly go more but I only asked for 220 ish.

    Isn't the 710N a sealed unit?
  20. Broken Byzan
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    As i said mate, nice work, i hope that DV works for you, how much boost is she holding?

    Mine used to spike 25 ish and then drop from there, fullwhack in top was 16 ish iirc
  21. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 15, 2008]
    the 710n is sealed, but it has been seen to hold up to 260 ish bhp on seats/tt's and S3's etc
  22. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 15, 2008]
    That's why I bought the Forge Valve as the springs are cheap to replace and can be matched to a specific boost level.

    I presume the 710N on a standard car AEB wouldn't function correctly as it's designed to work with much higher boost levels?
  23. Broken Byzan
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    [Dec 15, 2008]
    It would function fine matey.

    The 710n on the A3 was doing 12 psi, now holds 20 no problems at all

    What spring you going to stick in, green or yellow?
  24. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 15, 2008]
    25 PSI.. fookin'ell that's some serious boost!!

    The DV is only holding about 13 PSI at present (green spring) but I'm guessing that with the new spring I'll be seeing a steady 17 - 18 PSI / 1.2 bar ish.

    Anybody ever suffered boost loss due to DV?
  25. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 15, 2008]
    Why don't they fit 710N through the range of petrol turbos?

    I thought green was the standard spring? Have ordered a yellow.
  26. Broken Byzan
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    [Dec 15, 2008]
    Green should have been ok, maybe yours is worn/soft??
    And yes it is the std spring :blush:

  27. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 15, 2008]
    It's not a lack of boost like it's struggling to produce boost.. it shoots to about 0.9 bar and then lets go all together as if the valve is forced wide open and dumping all of the boost at once.. I called them on the way home as they warned me that it would do it but it almost felt like a misfire so I wanted to check!
  28. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 15, 2008]
    tbh mate if its doing that you need to be VERY careful you dont wreck the turbo. If the DV is dumping boost with the engine under load the turbo will massively overspeed and could either shatter the shaft or kill the bearing. S4's with mild boost leaks kill their turbos over time due to the turbo overspeeding to try and maintain the boost.

    I dont know if that actually is the DV. If it was i'd expect you'd hear some horrible rushing air sound when it did it.

    When it lets go, do you lose all boost?
  29. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 16, 2008]
    Yeah.. lose all boost then it builds straight back up again.

    As I can measure the boost level (gauge) I've been driving below the level where it occurs. I just forced it a few times to check it out.

    I will be very careful not to go to full throttle until I have replaced the spring which I'm hoping will solve the problem.. to be honest I can't see another logical explanation so I'm feeling confident at the moment.
  30. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 16, 2008]
    Have a look at Chipped UK's youtube page. Jeremy Clarkson's Lambo is on there doing a couple of rolling road runs.
  31. Broken Byzan
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    [Dec 16, 2008]
    Jayson used some of that Oxyane on our A3 after they mapped it, the idle alone was noticably smoother and the HC's wer tremendous
  32. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Dec 16, 2008]
    Yeah.. I'd like to have a play with some too :)
  33. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Jan 5, 2009]
    A bit gutted really..

    After a diagnostic check I can see that I'm getting a code for boost limit exceeded which coincides with my power loss when attempting to achieve full boost!!! After consulting a few contacts 'in the know' it appears that I am most likely looking at a mapping issue.

    I consulted Chipped UK and they said that I needed to replace my DV valve spring and secure my dipstick because at high revs on the rollers it could be seen shaking around... which I have now fitted (spring) and secured (dipstick).

    With no improvement I called Chipped UK again and have now arranged to go back to see them on Saturday. They said they will run a diagnostic which I'm hoping there will be no charge for because as far as I'm aware any problems should have been found on my primary visit. I was told that the problem was my DV valve spring which is now uprated.

    I will obviously give them a chance on Saturday and hope that they prove themselves but so far it seems that they may be reluctant to do much more. They don't seem to register the fact that it could be the map that is at fault.

    Hopefully they will look into the map and it is just a case of me being pessimistic.

    I will post the outcome!!
  34. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 5, 2009]
    do you have a standard N75 valve? What boost is the map trying to achieve? Do you have a boost guage to see whats going on?

    If its exceeding the limit then either the requested boost level is too high (i think the ECU will cut at around 22psi because thats the upper limit that the MAP sensor can read), or some oddness with the map is causing the boost pressure to spike before the N75 can control it. I think there is a site you can log in vagcom if your ECU supports it (115 or 116 perhaps?) which shows requested and actual boost. If you log that on a full throttle run in 3rd gear it will let you see whats going on and might give you some more ammo if they try to be arsey about it.
  35. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Jan 5, 2009]
    Yeah it's a new but standard N75 valve, Not sure what boost the map is trying to achieve but with the figures on my first rolling road run I'd guess at about 18 PSI.

    I think the problem as you've said is due to the boost peaking over the maximum limit and the N75 not being able to react correctly.

    The boost shown before the power loss is around 12.5 PSI but obviously to see the requested boost which is more than likely the problem I would need to sort something out before Saturday which I don't think will be possible.

    Chipped UK are a professional company so hopefully they will share whatever information they find with me I just feel they could have been a bit more helpful in trying to find a solution really but I'll hold judgement until Saturday.
  36. Broken Byzan
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    [Jan 5, 2009]
    Aragorn, Lee has an AEB engine and therefore no MAP sensor, the overboost is probably detected via the MAF andairflow over a time period, i cannot see how else it would know the figures. Also being DBC we dont have block 115 sadly so cannot compare requested via actual, I did a run on our mapped A3 and found the 2 figures to be quite different, much more than they should be, although it does seem to be ok with it.

    I have anothr friend that has an S3 and his car is boosting what it likes by the seems of it and as such he is looking to get his map removed.(most parts have already been swapped to eliminate problems) this car also throws an overboost code.

    My A4 on the otherhand mullered its turbo due to overspeeding according to the turbo builder, so i seem to have no boost cap there.

    I am hoping that this is a glitch at the tuners as I have heartily recomended a certain tuner and almost feel guilty that other users are having problems, as such i am actually attempting to help them as best as i can myself. I myself have probably spent around £800 (Over an extended period on both cars) getting all the tuning done so i hope that this can be rectified
  37. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 5, 2009]
    doesnt the AEB have a pressure (ie map) sensor in the intercooler?

    The N75 valve would only work if the ecu can see the boost pressure, and the only way it can see the pressure is with a MAP sensor

    Vauxhall LET uses a similar setup with MAF for main fuelling and MAP for boost detection, correction and to control the vauxhall equivalent of the N75 as the LET has overboost function etc.
  38. Broken Byzan
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    [Jan 5, 2009]
    No MAP on the aeb mate at All
  39. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 5, 2009]
    how can it control the boost pressure then? You cant control something that you cant read?

    How can it declare there is an overboost condition with no way of measuring the boost?

    Thats certainly odd!
  40. Broken Byzan
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    [Jan 5, 2009]
    odd it is, also a fact it is !!

    Thats why i assumed it works it out via MAF and timescale or similar. Take a look at yours mate, no MAP fitted on your IC

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