1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

tube and fin or bar and plate coolers

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by jezzy, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. jezzy

    jezzy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    768
    Likes Received:
    16
    So after much searching and reading which one tube and fin or bar and plate.
    It seems for K04 tube and fin would be fine, anything above bt or hybrid would be bar and plate.
    Tube and fin are lighter and you can run smaller (keep the fogs).
    Or am i completely wrong?
    any opinions welcome

    regards
     
  2. Advert Guest Advertisement


  3. knoxie

    knoxie K4OXE

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    15
    are you talking intercoolers?
     
  4. jezzy

    jezzy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    768
    Likes Received:
    16
    yes
     
  5. lloydie1

    lloydie1 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    2
    I do this for a living and its not as easy as that ! As a rule of thumb, assuming the same size core, tube and fin will weigh less, cool slightly worse, but will have less pressure drop and have better path through the core for cooling things behind e.g. radiator/air con.
    You can tend to go smaller on the core size if you go bar and plate, as the mass of the core will increase the cooling effect, but go too big and the pressure drop will kill the power. Pretty much 99.999% of everything that comes out of China is bar and plate.......but the best cores in the world are all tube & fin :)
     
  6. knoxie

    knoxie K4OXE

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    15
  7. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
    Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    19,778
    Likes Received:
    3,211
    Are you making a cooler yourself or planning on using this info to help you buy one? the AH Fabs and Forge cores are typically tube and fin... ebay coolers are bar and plate as you have mentioned...

    Having been involved in testing various FMICs including ones on my own car then it has to be said that the 'Wellycooler' seems to work very well indeed but is not the easiest to fit or keep the OEM look without a few mods...

    The AH V2 works well on BT and given the choice would happily use it on a K04 too... there is also the argument over fill/lag thats inherent with larger coolers...

    What is your end game?

    <tuffty/>
     
  8. jezzy

    jezzy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    768
    Likes Received:
    16
    thanks i read the s3 fmic guide and dosent really touch on the bar plate, tube fin thing.
    im trying to keep weight off the front end (its heavy enough) ive ditched alot, engine covers, sai and few other bits and bobs that arent needed.
    im not really looking to go more than 310 or 320 hybrid at some stage.
    lloydie any thoughts on size (smallest possible i could get away with)?
     
  9. jezzy

    jezzy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    768
    Likes Received:
    16
    thanks tuffy
    i was writing a reply as you wrote.
    im not looking for the power you and welly are running as above.
    im not going racing either.
    i just think the car needs to shed a little front end weight and running tube and fin seems a better idea for my purpose.
    but im not sure on size i would need.
    thanks for the info
     
  10. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
    Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    19,778
    Likes Received:
    3,211
    AH Fabs v2 (tube/fin) is lighter than the Wellycooler (bar/plate)..

    <tuffty/>
     
  11. jezzy

    jezzy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    768
    Likes Received:
    16
    thanks for the info.
    Heres one i was looking at earlier.
    would this be ok for 320 bhp.
    Comes with 64mm beaded end tanks and in black
    thanks
     
  12. jezzy

    jezzy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    768
    Likes Received:
    16
  13. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
    Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    19,778
    Likes Received:
    3,211
    On an S3 I would say you will have flow issues... there are only 9 rows... the AH v1 has more than that and the welly cooler is a wider core...

    AH v1 had flow issues much over 300hp, v2 doesn't...

    AH v1 with 60mm bends on works ok, Bill's Lupo runs this setup but not sure if Bill has tested pressure drop on it as yet... I had issues below 350hp with it...

    <tuffty/>
     
  14. Scullies

    Scullies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2012
    Messages:
    1,507
    Likes Received:
    586
  15. jezzy

    jezzy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    768
    Likes Received:
    16
    Result with the first one.
    Did you lose the fogs with the 2nd one?
    i was wondering if you turn the cooler upside down and moved the ac pipe on the drivers side next to the rad, you could run straight to the charge pipe(looks like you could run 90 degree bend straight to the pipe)
     
  16. Scullies

    Scullies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2012
    Messages:
    1,507
    Likes Received:
    586
    I didnt use the smaller one, just mounted it in position.
    Yip, oem fogs are out of the picture now. Busy with fitting some led fogs that are only 3cm deep.

    That was my thinking too, using the smaller cooler upside down. Looked like it might fit but I didnt try it.
     
  17. jezzy

    jezzy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    768
    Likes Received:
    16
    lets us know how well the cooler holds up (iat) when you get the chance.
    thanks for the info.
     
  18. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk
    Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    8,984
    Likes Received:
    1,671
    well to be contrary (shocking I know) on recent tests I did on fmic's for a well known company.... the worst performing intercooler in terms of overall pressure loss (which no one hardly seems to consider) and temp drop was tube and fin, then bar and plate, then best was extruded.

    core density is relative for the thru air to components behind... eg, water rad

    tube and fin was said to me before hand to be expected to be the best, but facts and data said otherwise on the test subject.
     
  19. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk
    Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    8,984
    Likes Received:
    1,671
    I changed the ends for 63mm feeds remember.
    I'll test the thing next time lupos on the dyno.. curious myself now.
     
  20. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
    Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    19,778
    Likes Received:
    3,211
    Yeah, I remember now (wasn't sure if it was 60mm or 63mm due to space)... :D

    I also checked a pic on the AH v2 and now think its extruded rather than tube/fin?
    [​IMG]

    <tuffty/>
     
  21. jezzy

    jezzy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    768
    Likes Received:
    16
    Hello
    Touching back on this subject.
    could i use the following calculations for intercooler sizing.

    3-litres of volume per 100 bhp

    a cross section of 50cm squared per 100bhp .. hight x depth = 50cm2

    so for 320ish bhp id be looking for 160cm2
    9.6 litres volume


     
  22. Advert Guest Advertisement



    to hide this advert.
  23. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
    Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    19,778
    Likes Received:
    3,211
    Tbh unless making it yourself then I am not sure why you just don't use one of the tried and tested routes in the FMIC thread...

    I doubt there will be a cooler thats going to calculate out exactly what you need and on a road car there is little point in getting to involved in it...

    You will then have to translate your maths to the actual cores available which would require you knowing the specs... seems a lot of effort for next to no advantage

    Really not sure what you are trying to achieve... :)

    <tuffty/>
     
  24. jezzy

    jezzy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    768
    Likes Received:
    16
    hi
    Going by the above maths (if there correct)
    i could be looking for 600 x 210 x 76mm core size and mounting on top of the crash bar. (no cutting)
    Then if (and thats a big if) i can cut holes next the radiator at the top (this means moving the ac pipe)
    i can fit 90 degree bends straight to the charge pipe and tb thus losing about 5 feet of pipe (weight reduction) and quicker spool times.
    I think all the setups in the FMIC are great and thought about the welly route seriously.
    But im looking at something different and if works then great, but if it dosent welly cooler route it is.
    ive read through so many threads and it seems the more you read, it raises more questions rather than answers.
    As above with tube and fin, bar and plate designs.
    tube and fin seemed to be the route and then bill gives some input about testing and tube and fin comes last (thanks for info bill).
    Any way rant over as such.
    If the above maths are correct i will proceed with them and let you know how it goes.
    Thank you all for your input
     
  25. Alex C

    Alex C Well-Known Member
    VCDS Map User Audi S3

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    3,172
    Likes Received:
    329
    how hard are you driving your car to notice the weight saving of your engine covers, the odd silicone pipe and the odd cc of intercooler volume to notice the difference?
     
  26. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk
    Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    8,984
    Likes Received:
    1,671
    the application makes a difference... also - just when you thought it was Safe and understood - lol

    friends with a TT racecar had a large bar and plate or tube and fin fmic (I cant remember what now) and on short blasts it worked what seemed to be ok.. However, this car runs full data logging and when logs were reviewed the fmic would get hot and recovery times would not come down, ending up consistent 60+'c induction temps. The fmic would "heatsink" like bar and plate do, but not so good once hot and exchanging its heat back out again.. ok on a road car but a racecar showed its weakness. Extruded core replaced it and ran at 30'c max...
     

Share This Page