1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

TQS progress thread, From STD-Scroll-Eliminator.

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by Broken Byzan, Nov 14, 2009.

  1. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,571
    Likes Received:
    313
    [Feb 16, 2010]
    Bill: We're under no illusion that its perfect. However we worked on the assumption that as long as we run it on 98octane fuel, the management (which is designed to run perfectly well on 95) would handle any over advanced timing, with the fuel taking up the slack.

    Looking at the vagcom logs from the car, the highest knock retard logged is 8degrees. This is no different to a completely stock S4 running on 95 octane fuel. I can show you logs of a standard S4 running on 95 and 98 if you'd like to see this.

    The MAF and Fuelling may be "frigged" but the maf is underreading by 38%, and the injectors are 40% larger than stock, which for the most part will balance out. This can be seen by the fact that the Lambda multiplicative correction % is sat around 3, as opposed to some wildly high number. The N75 is completely under the ECU's control. AEB has no boost sensing, so the ECU is pushing the N75 duty cycle by itself to get to what it thinks is the correct maf values.

    Ideally the car needs some timing pulled out, and when it gets mapped, thats exactly what will happen. But given the values the ECU is pulling seem the same as a stock S4 running on 95, i cant see how they're dangerous?
  2. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,571
    Likes Received:
    313
    [Feb 16, 2010]
    An exceprt from a vagcom log, unfortunately the RPM's havent captured properly, so we'll need to do it again, but thats the worst correction out of all the driving.

    MAF is the 5th column, and the last four columns are the timing retard.
    [​IMG]
  3. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,597
    Likes Received:
    274
    [Feb 25, 2010]
    Not much going on atm, just some cheapy bits.

    MPG seems to have settled around 34 according to the DIS and 32 in real life, so not too bad.

    Stuffed some silver ring things into the S4 dash
    [​IMG]

    Ordered an inlet mani gasket so i could paint the inlet manifold with wrinkle paint. £4.79 delivered,

    check out the packaging.....
    [​IMG]

    Using some spare bits in the "audi" box i sprayed a set of door handles black like i had before.

    Not sure on whether to leave them silver to match the beltline trims, or black to blend in with the card better

    [​IMG]

    Have done some more searching on immo problems, so i opened my 018CJ ECU to locate the 24c02 immo chip.
    [​IMG]

    Searched around and found for a sensible amount of cash you can aquire the equipment to clone them yourself.

    Using some quite basic tools,
    Programmer
    24xxx_01.jpg

    25 blank chips for testing...
    24c02.jpg
    Adapters to allow the SMD chips to fit the DIP progger.

    smt%20completed.jpg
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2010
  4. Geeman
    Offline

    Geeman Low Life

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,318
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Feb 25, 2010]
    immo problems...?

    Rings look good!
  5. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,597
    Likes Received:
    274
    [Feb 25, 2010]
    The immo issue is self inflicted mate, i am putting a non native ECU into the car as it is more programable and bench flashable.

    For some reason, the ECU adapted to the immo fine on the purple one, but wont have it on this car. Having done some searching the way most tuners "fix" it is by cloning the immo info from your old ECU, can't go wrong then !
  6. jcb
    Offline

    jcb Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    4,118
    Likes Received:
    13
    [Feb 25, 2010]
    so long as you keep your boost sensible and your intake temps don't go through the roof teh ECU shouldn't need to pull timing should it?
    You don't appear to be running lean and have matched fuelling to charge volume
  7. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,571
    Likes Received:
    313
    [Feb 25, 2010]
    As a rough rule of thumb, every 1psi increase in boost pressure needs a degree of timing pulled out.

    Becuase we've "fooled" the ECU into increasing the boost and have effectively hidden it by using the larger MAF and matching injectors, it will still be running the timing for 12psi, rather than the timing for 18psi so will in effect be overadvanced.

    The knock sensor will detect this and retard the timing as long as its not too overboard, and running super unleaded helps too.
  8. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,597
    Likes Received:
    274
    [Feb 25, 2010]
    ED You are slightly luckier than I, you have a proper AFR gauge to watch for sure. I imagne looking at the corrective vaues, it's not far off on mine
  9. jcb
    Offline

    jcb Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    4,118
    Likes Received:
    13
    [Feb 25, 2010]
    granted but that assumption is on all the same hardware being cranked up 1psi.
    if you change turbo and intercooler, pipework etc then your thermal efficiency will be much better and you are probably running roughly the same inlet temps as a Ko3/Ko3s pushing 12psi.

    My question was in repsonse to Bill's.
    Unless you run lean at WOT or are running crazy boost and/or crazy inlet temps though the OEM map it shouldn't have any problem
  10. rasA4
    Offline

    rasA4 Four Rings Mafia Specialist

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    3,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Feb 25, 2010]
    love the S4 cluster loads better rings looks good also, you saying the gasket was the only thing in that box?
    quite a lot of chips on the silver beltline trims. IMHO i prefer the chrome handles
  11. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,571
    Likes Received:
    313
    [Feb 25, 2010]
    jcb: it isnt all about temperature...

    If you put more charge into the cylinder, it tends to burn quicker, becuase of the higher dynamic compression ratio etc. As a result, more power will need less timing, even if you've completely changed the turbo for a much more effecient model.
  12. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    [Feb 26, 2010]
    I want to say thank you for the terrific info to be found on this thread. For some time I have been flummoxed by the skewed AF readings coming from a stock sensor placed in the 3" MAF. I would never have trusted myself to "do the math" on this question, and your multiplier factor of 1.38 seems dead on. Just as a corroboration, I had been seeing uncorrected numbers in the mid 140s with a hybrid turbo very similar to the Scroll you are using. The compressor wheel is less efficient than yours but the housing is better-flowing, so it was a big confirmation of my rough guesses when I was able to use your math to arrive right at our 200g/s target!

    I would say you have every reason to be pleased with seeing anything above 200g/s on this turbo. Your tuner has done a great job dialing you in and Scroll's design seems really solid. Congratulations!
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2010
  13. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,597
    Likes Received:
    274
    [Feb 26, 2010]
    Thanks Slappy, your hybrids should be pretty good once the teething period and decent files are written. I am subscribed to your threads on VW vortex and the Zine, we all need to pool info to enable searches to be of more use IMHO
  14. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    [Feb 26, 2010]
    I think it'd be really helpful to have a centralized resource of software applications to these turbos. Secondarily would be a comparative listing of the turbos themselves. Over the last couple of years pricing has come steadily down on these kinds of kit (hah! I used British) while performance is going up. It's a hoot to be part of it. I plan to do something informative like that on my own site, but that's not as impartial as we'd like.
  15. gmx
    Offline

    gmx Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    2
    [Feb 27, 2010]
    Where is the BTDC column?

    Log that and "knock detection in degrees" at the same time.
    Let me know what you discover....

    That is not a real correction factor block. FYI.
  16. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,571
    Likes Received:
    313
    [Feb 27, 2010]
    so the "CF" values arent in degrees?

    I'm not sure which values will be available on his M3.7 ecu, but i'm sure BTDC timing should be there.
  17. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,597
    Likes Received:
    274
    [Mar 2, 2010]
    I got bored and gave my car the first clean of 2010. OMG she was one heck of a state.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    OllieQS likes this.
  18. Purple Princess
    Offline

    Purple Princess Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,044
    Likes Received:
    2
    [Mar 2, 2010]
    She looks amazing babe :D xx
  19. rasA4
    Offline

    rasA4 Four Rings Mafia Specialist

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    3,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Mar 2, 2010]
    looks good myman!
  20. ian52
    Offline

    ian52 2000 a4 1.8tqs-yellow

    Joined:
    May 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,199
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Mar 2, 2010]
    I still need to give mine a good machine polish like that. Dons think it will ever look that shiny thou.
  21. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,597
    Likes Received:
    274
    [Mar 16, 2010]
    I had to change the rocker cover gasket as it was leaking so thought it was time for a freshen up.I already had a can of that nice wrinkle paint so used the opertunity to paint the IM too. So it only costed me a VC and IM gasket and some time

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Maybe too much black? Meh too late now.lol

    [​IMG]

    While i was in there i noticed a water leak from the rear flange thingy, sent the Mrs into the closest VW stealer and £2.21 later we had a nice new O ring to seal the flange to the head.
  22. rasA4
    Offline

    rasA4 Four Rings Mafia Specialist

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    3,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Mar 16, 2010]
    looking nice and clean as i said already the red brightens it up a bit, whats next?
  23. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,571
    Likes Received:
    313
    [Mar 17, 2010]
    Hmm maybe i should get the paint out too!

    Looking good.
  24. Lee Goodall
    Offline

    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,231
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Mar 17, 2010]
    I'm sure I've seen one similar somewhere?? :think:
  25. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,597
    Likes Received:
    274
    [Mar 17, 2010]
    I don't know what you mean,:asskicking:


    I like how my nice yellow injectors satnd out !! lol
  26. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,597
    Likes Received:
    274
    [Mar 17, 2010]
    Doooo eeeeeettttt It's not like you don't have the paint !!
  27. Lee Goodall
    Offline

    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,231
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Mar 17, 2010]
    Hmmm.. I think red and black would be better ;) lol
  28. docurley
    Offline

    docurley Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2003
    Messages:
    3,859
    Likes Received:
    25
    [Mar 20, 2010]
    Nice will do mine when I need to pop the rocker off I quite liked the look on my old B5.
  29. gmx
    Offline

    gmx Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    2
    [Mar 21, 2010]
    looks great!
    Any details on the FMIC + piping?
  30. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    [Mar 24, 2010]
    Mark -- I just re-read this thread and came across this posting. This means you are using a 7.6mm blade tip height turbine rotor in place of the 6.4 height rotor found in the K04 turbos. This change in spec will slightly alter the flow characteristics to reduce back pressures. You aren't wired for EGTs are you?

    Point of clarification: I'm not bringing this up as a criticism. Quite the opposite. I concur with this design alteration.
  31. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,597
    Likes Received:
    274
    [Mar 24, 2010]
    I wish i was wired for EGTs

    No critisism taken, it was a trial Turbo Sean did for me, slightly different to the normal specs. I don't think it will have a massive impact on output, just in the way it spools. Either way the tune is going to be done for it on the RR
  32. ALPINE
    Offline

    ALPINE Yes its diesel, now cry u lost

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    3,096
    Likes Received:
    2
    [Mar 27, 2010]
    what made you paint the inlet marky boy?? hahaha!
  33. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    [Apr 2, 2010]
    Mark

    I have a tester over here who is showing what I believe to be inaccurate mass airflow numbers. He is using an OBD2 VR6 MAF housing (this is the version which retains the sensor orientation of a newer 1.8t transversal OEM housing. So the sensor is oriented in the airflow exactly as it had been, but now it is in a (presumably) 38% higher volume housing. Why then are the uncorrected and corrected numbers not lining up with what you'd expect? I am going to have him run fuel trim logs to see if he is running super rich, but he says the car is running "perfect". :huh:


    [​IMG]
  34. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,571
    Likes Received:
    313
    [Apr 2, 2010]
    Has he increased his fuelling by 38% too?

    I see a peak of 242g/s which is around 300hp, were you expecting more or less?
  35. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,597
    Likes Received:
    274
    [Apr 2, 2010]
    Thats basicly what i am running.
    My std correction figures are a few % Mult and Add.

    I will find out actual lambda figures and power figs etc next week , She is booked in for a day on the 7th @ Rtech.

    I will get him to log as much as is practical, boost, MAF etc.
  36. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    [Apr 2, 2010]
    This turbo should put out ~200g/s. This is a Mk1 F4H-T, so it's using a compressor wheel that is smaller than a TT225/S3 wheel.

    The graph above is the actual numbers reported by the sensor to VAG-COM and secondarily shows my estimates using your 38% multiplier. Remember his car has a MAP sensor so yes we have larger injectors. The Unitronic software file calls for an OEM 1.8t sensor in a 3" MAF housing (either TT225 or VR6 version OBD2) and 380cc injectors. I asked him to get me his Lambda correction values, expecting to see the ECU working like mad to address the improper mixture. Instead corrections are +3%, meaning he's running an insignificant amount LEAN.

    I've forwarded his log to the tuner to see if they can sort this. And, oh yeah, the car is driving perfectly. No idea how. Should I be fretting, really?
  37. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,571
    Likes Received:
    313
    [Apr 2, 2010]
    If the map is designed for a 3" MAF, then the vagcom output might already be corrected, or at least scaled so the numbers no longer make sense.

    IE it might only making be 170~

    The fact he has a MAP sensor means you cant fool the ECU like you can on the AEB, as the ECU would notice its overboosting and cut the power back.
  38. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    [Apr 2, 2010]
    I've thought about this. The tuner can answer this question, although in my recollection they said their software does not alter the data coming from the sensors.


    Exactly. Can't be sneaky like you've been. At least not on this particular car, :happy:
  39. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,571
    Likes Received:
    313
    [Apr 2, 2010]
    might not alter the data coming from the sensors, but they're altering the data the sensors are being referenced against....

    An S4 ecu will have a MAF table that says 5v = 300g/s, the 1.8t's will say 5v=220g/s (or whatever) if they altered that table to reflect the new housing 5v would now = 300 (or whatever)
  40. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    [Apr 3, 2010]
    Understood. But then there's the fueling. We're showing 20+/ms injector duty cycles. Basically the 380s are being maxed. This is at 3bar. :unsure:

Share This Page