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TQS progress thread, From STD-Scroll-Eliminator.

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by Broken Byzan, Nov 14, 2009.

  1. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 18, 2011]
    "just"? It only took you two years :p

    I've been looking at some SAAB and Volvo turbos with a view to making some sort of poverty-spec turbo upgrade. Just need to wait patiently on ebay.
  2. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jul 18, 2011]
    hello
  3. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 18, 2011]
  4. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jul 18, 2011]
    well we know there's no chance the engines not capable of injesting that powers amount of airflow..
    the pipes to and from fmic are poxy.. I do have to agree there.. We will do something about that :D

    I dont think thats going to magic up the airflow however.. as this 170g/s reported from when @ MRC.. is there a log from then Doug can show, or in fact any dyno logging info done at the same time (boost, afr etc) you know the stuff I do all the time on my dyno. data data data

    Is the maf scaled..? Has that been answered yet? (I may have missed it somewhere.. only dipping into your thread so far)
  5. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 18, 2011]
    In all likelyhood the MAF is scaled due to the sensor being inside a 3" housing.

    Mark was getting similar airflow figures when he was running the stock map with the 3" housing and larger injectors bodged in.

    Reading dougs reply two things come across, 1. he seems to think the engine is only ingesting 140g/sec of air rather than some scaled version of this, 2. hes comparing your K04 hybrid with the S3's k04 turbo when he quotes how much power it should be making with 1bar.

    I dont believe your turbo is actually capable of much more than 240hp. Its only running a 51mm compressor wheel.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2011
  6. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jul 18, 2011]
    140g/s is rubbish true airflow........ remapped k03 manage this
    I would *hope* its an unscaled 30% under-read for marks sake

    175bhp car?

    if unscaled (in software) but larger housing its equivalent airflow vs power should be in the 238bhp region, which is plausable for a hybrid (small one), but 140g/s is plain odd.. It does'nt explain this 170g/s mark says he was told/saw etc..

    Is there a log on its current map which shows the 170g/s I have'nt seen?
  7. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 18, 2011]
    i have asked Doug so many times about scaling and he never answers that question . i fully agree about those pipes. my issue is with the supposed 170 it made before and the log of the failed run at chimped stated 168. unless that was a fluke of some kind. i do recall seeing it on the screen on my return to Mrc that it had done 150 and after i put my spare element in i saw 160. the spare element turned out to be the vr6 one so i would have expected the scaling to be wrong. i can't see how she has stopped injesting air "all of a sudden" despite me repair ing stuff. unless they mapped it with faults and this is why we are having issues now.
  8. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 18, 2011]
    Yeh exactly, these cars pull >140g/sec stock as they're 180hp from the factory. When he fitted the larger housing and injectors on the original map, the airflow stayed the same, but it made a lot more power, presumably as the ECU will have upped the boost trying to get back to its target airflow figures.

    Having been in marks car, back when it had its leaking intercooler, its a LOT quicker than mine which is standard and also clocks ~140 g/sec peak. So theres certainly some scaling going on.

    One of the logs above has 167g/sec, from Chipped UK's dyno, but the car was also coughing spluttering and made abysmal power on that same dyno run. Personally i think the 167 was due to the leaking intercooler, and the massive leak probably explains the **** running that resulted.

    This one: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...TbDBXSVY0c2d1Wnc&hl=en&authkey=CPP_3psG#gid=0
  9. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jul 18, 2011]
    is it conceivable the maf(s) are not correct/faulty, unlucky as it is.. it could happen
    on that sheet linked above (thanks) the loads on block 25 track well, where currently there's quite some gap on actual vs spec..

    The fueling is'nt looking bad for some significant "difference" in current 140g/s airflows vs the high 160g/s of March...
  10. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 18, 2011]
    Its possible, but then his 10 year old one, and the brand new one both gave very similar readings, which sort of suggests they're both alright.

    Having been in the car compared to mine, i'd suggest 240hp is a fair approximation of what its making.

    I've said to mark he needs to stop chasing airflow numbers and get the car on a dyno and see what its doing. Until we know the correlation between the g/sec values is spitting out, and actual power, we could be chasing a problem that doesnt exist. The airflow figures plotted against RPM produce a lovely curve, and when multiplied by ~35% to account for the MAF housing make sense given the turbo he has and boost pressures we're seeing, infact the plot shape looks almost exactly the same as the graph produced by his old SP51 powered car.

    Heres a quick plot:

    mark.jpg
  11. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 18, 2011]
    infact, i've just eyeballed the data from the old cars dyno plot, and plotted both of them together:

    mark2.jpg

    Sorry for the slightly small size, forum seems to resize the images a bit too much.
  12. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jul 25, 2011]
    interesting comparison.
    would seem to support the maf's not scaled, and its reading is under reading by the larger housing, but compensated for by the larger injectors..
  13. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 25, 2011]
    I think the best we start again, plans are afoot to go ME7 and properly flashable. However not 100% it will all work so will update whan i can.

    A point to note since adjusting the actuator the turbo holds boost much better still doing 1.3 bar at 6k but now i see a definate 1.8 bar under full load/boost, so this will be capped with a MBC for now, and i will get bill to sort me some rods and shells out and do this properly at some point

    I am hoping then once the base map is installled i can tweak what's needed to a point with unisettings, between that and logging get her better than MRC managed to do in 2 visits and £600
  14. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 25, 2011]
    tis a shame all that moneys going to waste, but hopefully there will be a better outcome.

    I've got a DBW harness for mine, just need to collect an ECU, throttle and the other bits that are needed, but i plan to get the engine running and run in first, then i can move on to the next stage with tuning.

    Still cant decide if i should just pick up an APY ECU or other similar early ME7 unit with a narrowband lambda, or go for a later wideband unit (from a non-EGT car, perhaps an AUM?)
  15. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 25, 2011]
    As you know i am hoping for an APU loom ,ECU etc as it's closest fitment to my car already. I assume with that in mind mine will be narrowband and Non EGT, but still immo 2 so easier to code in

    The ECU is the last bit to sort, currently one up for £60 ( the correct number) i just cannot afford it just now, but hopefully have secured the loom, peddle assy,throttle body and peddle to engine loom wiring for a sensible price. This should allow me to tweak any wires to correct pins if necc before i attempt to fit it all.

    Seeing i will need a MAP sensor boss fitted, it would be rude not to improve the current pipes to a larger dia, as i quote what someone told me " It's all about the flow".
  16. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 25, 2011]
    The ECU's should all be interchangable though, so if you come across a golf or A3/S3 1.8T ECU thats also narrowband it should also work just the same.

    Theres a couple of APU passat ECU's on ebay just now actually around the £20 mark.
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011
  17. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 26, 2011]
    For reference, i ave just logged her on the OEM ECU with the VR6 MAF housing and my injectors etc

    https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...yaQZadHZNTmtXcjJVVHFYQVBXbDlCMXRMWGc&hl=en_US
    max 137GS, much the same as i now see on the "MAPPED" ECU but less boost as it peaked at 1.4 due to n75 DC being pegged at max

    compared to one " I think" i made when car was standard on STD MAF housing and injectors
    https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...3p4OFg0QzRTZ1E&hl=en_US&authkey=CPnDuQU#gid=0

    not sure what that means as such , but the car consumes no more air on the superduper map than it does on the oem setup at less boost
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
  18. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 26, 2011]
    Presumably means there is some scaling going on over and above just the 3" housing.

    At a guess, to account for the larger injectors running at 4bar rather than 3?

    At 3 bar the MAF and injectors cancel each other out.
    At 4 bar, your rich by 15% so would need to fix that by scaling the MAF appropriately?
  19. sam80quattro
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    sam80quattro Member

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    [Jul 26, 2011]
    can you explain how to do the logs? i've got vagcom and ive finally got my 1.8t running and on the road.
    agu ecu (immo removed)
    vr6 maf housing aeb sensor
    c20let injectors
    4bar fpr
    big front mount
    and bigger exhaust lol
    oh and a t28

    currently seems fine, although just taken it easy as i dont have anyway of checking fueling etc, but 1st and 2nd pulls feel quick, 3rd gear gets a bit blue smoke from the exhaust so thats as far as ive gone on boost, its boosting to a steady 0.5bar and feels alot faster than i was expecting tbh, need to sort a map out now, well after i find out where the hell the oil is coming from thats lying on the floor lol looks to be somewhere behind the timing covers... anyway sorry to hijack
  20. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 27, 2011]
  21. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Jul 27, 2011]
    That sounds wicked, does it sound like that with the S4 system on or you getting a custom straight through now lol
  22. PARKER
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    PARKER New Member

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    [Jul 30, 2011]
    Hi,do you have a link for the fmic? I have just had my k04 fitted to my passat at bills and all it needs now is this. It looks like the one he showed me, but I was worried I might order it and it wouldn't fit- it had huge 3" ends.
  23. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 31, 2011]
    mine is an ebay 3 inch outlet one i will find dimensions and stick it here for you. the supplied pipe work is a little puny imho which o hope to rectify soon. or rather Bill will. Lmao

    I cant find the original ebay ad now, stupid Ebay, Mine came from 44mj and was listed as a kit, deffo had 3 inch outlets, but i don't have the measurements to hand at the mo.

    The toyo bill has should be fine to fit as iirc you have no fogs on your car do you? Also the passat has a large snooty nose, so should privide plenty of space for something like that
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2011
  24. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 31, 2011]
    What about this?
    FMIC AUDI A4 B6 1.8T 20V PASSAT TURBO INTERCOOLER KIT | eBay
  25. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 31, 2011]
    Sam do you have VCDS/Vagcom
  26. sam80quattro
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    sam80quattro Member

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    [Aug 15, 2011]
    i've got vagcom yeah, its an early version 3.1 i think but seems to work fine, i can take some logs on the way to work tonight if i find out how lol although the turbo to manifold gasket has burnt out due to not using locking nuts and 1 of them fell off causing an opening, it still goes ok, just part throttle you can actually feel it upping the boost then dying off and so on :S also the lambda is showing a heating circuit fault... still easily showed a type r owner today that old audi's rule :D

    oh and i have replaced the nuts that hold the turbo on and not just driving with 3 nuts lol gasket will be replaced tommorow due to night shifts and a serious case of CBA :D
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2011
  27. boost-addict
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    boost-addict Member

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    [Aug 22, 2011]
    sweet car, what rear lights are they?
  28. IN 2 Deep
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    IN 2 Deep Hoonigan

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    [Aug 29, 2011]
    Have to admitt I would have thrown in the towel long ago, it reads like your having a bit of a nightmare trying to blag the motronic to work with your custom set up. I can assure you that all this could easily be avoided running a standalone ECU it would obviously allow you to tweak the map until your hearts content without having to empty your wallet for some dodgy bodgy remap, you've probably spent a small fortune trying to remap this already for another 60HP, I'm sure you could be running standalone for less than you've already spent. Just my 2 pennies.
  29. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 29, 2011]
    IMO its all about getting someone who is actually competent to do the mapping.

    If some goober mapped the standalone it would be just as **** if not worse.

    Standalone mapping also costs money just like motronic, so your mapping costs should end up around the same, but with the standalone you'd have had to have spent ~£1000 on the ECU and loom as well.
  30. IN 2 Deep
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    IN 2 Deep Hoonigan

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    [Aug 29, 2011]
    Well there are massive differences in mapping standalone & motronic, you know this. Standalone is designed to be user friendly and easily calibrated, the same can't be said for the motronic, it was never meant to be played with, it was never part of the design brief hence its all encrypted. I have long questioned the knowledge base of mapping these ECU's as they are massively complex and I for one doubt that any of these "mappers" fully comprehend what they are doing or the knock effects of doing so.

    I can say this though, if standalone was used it would be running sweet as a nut now and there would be no head scratching and driving all over the country trying to bottom out whats wrong. A £1000 for an NEW ecu is alot but I'm guessing Mark will spend alot more than that if he ever gets it sorted out all things considered. I can only imagine marks frustration after all the hardwork he's put in to it, I bet all he wants is to be able to jump in the car and go for a hoon without worrying about the car running properly.

    On another note, was that your avant I blasted past yesterday? Can't be many around here that colour.
  31. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 29, 2011]
    I agree mate, it's killing me. It was why i spent the cash to go to MRC as they were supposed to be good.

    I am cuurently learning and working closely with Badger 5 for tuning options. I am considering dumping the hybrid as the gains will be small considering the hassle. I was thinking a gt28rs will take the same amount of tuning as the hybrid but the outcome will be more impressive.

    How's the turbo monster doing mate?
  32. IN 2 Deep
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    IN 2 Deep Hoonigan

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    [Aug 29, 2011]
    If you lived a bit closer I would be willing to strap my 034EFI & loom on there and show you how easy it would be to get it all dialed in, I think you would very quickly see the simplicity of the standalone and obviously the instant gains by doing so, it was the reason I went standalone right off the bat. I would have torched the car otherwise, I hate fannying about trying to make stuff work especially after the massive investment required.

    Will you be using an eliminator 28RS or a proper garrett version? I can only imagine how that turbo will spool on a 1.8T, proper neck breaker lol.

    The beast is absolutely awesome fella, I drive it daily at the moment and apart from the cost of the fuel it's the highlight of my working day :). I've just clocked 10K miles now on the motor I haven't had any issues since the last oil in coolant incident. Dare I say it I've actually turned the boost down to make it a bit more civilised on the road, 2BAR+ boost is mental, too quick for my head to comprehend, braking points become difficult to judge as things approach very very quickly and the fact other drivers don't realise just how quickly its closing, bit dangerous. Its running around 20psi at the moment its still mental, I estimate about 350hp. I still need to get some video footage so you can all see just how quick it is.
  33. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 29, 2011]
    Yeh it was me, i flashed at you as you passed but not sure if you caught it, i thaught i saw a wave in return but not sure as you were shifting some.

    Your car didnt look all that happy though, it was belching out black smoke like a derv when you passed me!
  34. IN 2 Deep
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    IN 2 Deep Hoonigan

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    [Aug 29, 2011]
    Aye tis a bit rich under boost atm, I've just upped the fuel pressure and reset the fuel map to resolve a part throttle driveability issue & still working on the full boost load cells, log, tweak, log, tweak takes a while to dial it in properly & since its safer to run rich than lean, I tend to work taking fuel out of the map, which I've done today along with an oil change :) all part of the fun.
  35. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 30, 2011]
    appols to Mark.. for this next off topic.
    standalone.DTA'd S60, GT30 mk2 Golf.


    [​IMG]
    225bhp on 9psi, >400bhp on 24psi

    Mappable standalones can be great :)
    Mappable Bosch can also be great (but you need to buy many £1000's of pounds worth of tuning software and hardware tho!)
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
  36. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 15, 2011]
    I spent a while today wiring my FIS box and comfort indicator unit in. Awsome gadgets.

    [​IMG]
    FIS Control

    [​IMG]
    Comfort/lazy sod indicators

    I have collected some goodies i had planned to fit at some point.

    Bill @ Badger 5 was on holiday and allowed me access to his workshop to do my rod install. So i went and fitted some Brute rods and ACL HD shells
    [​IMG]
    still nice and clean inside
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    just cleaned the piston crowns a bit whikle they were out.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I used the engine suspender thingy

    [​IMG]

    and nailed most of this stuff into her.

    [​IMG]

    The eagle eyed amongst you will have noticed a little blower lyaing around in the pictures, yes she is destined for my car when i finish the DWB conversion i am aiming to do.

    [​IMG]

    GT28RS Eliminator. Good according to the US BHP ( seem to be plus 15% of reality) figures of 350 BHP) I am aiming for a solid 300

    I may even take pics of all the parts for prosterity. Going ME7.5 improves my chances of getting my car tuned correctly as the management is so much cleverer than ME3.8.3

    Also able to add Cruse for sensible


    Then moved onto MOT stuff as i had checked and realised it was out DOH! I found the cat as above, and relised a simple pass was maybe out of the question now. GRRR
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2011
  37. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 15, 2011]
    Once i was looking to tighten exhaust up i found it ratted. Obviously bouncing down the M5 did it no good.
    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2011
  38. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 15, 2011]
    That half round section should be inside the CAT somewhere, and fell out with other bits of **** when i tipped it up. Problem is it still rattles....
  39. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Oct 19, 2011]
    You turn your back for five minutes and.....

    You've been busy mate and it looks very promising :icon_thumright:
  40. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 24, 2011]
    A little progress has been made.
    Bill welded some 63mm Alloy up for me ready for the added flow of the GT
    [​IMG]

    WMI bung welded in ready
    [​IMG]

    Also welded the Map sensor bung in ready for the DBW conversion

    [​IMG]

    Take one of these

    [​IMG]
    Some of these
    [​IMG]
    And get more air in. Notice the size differences.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Bye bye my beauty, you have served me well.
    [​IMG]

    Slight difference in sizes...
    [​IMG]

    Gt offered up
    [​IMG]

    3 inch custom intake, based on a V1 Badger 5 Tip.
    [​IMG]

    I had to remove the smaller electric fan for space. I will re-visit this at another time. Either by custom alloy bits of ( my likely alternative) a smaller fan pushing from the front
    [​IMG]

    After run Water pump( Awaiting control unit), then i will wire it in, for now it's acting as a pipe joiner.LOL

    [​IMG]

    I will probably make a bracket in the next few days and mount the pump around where it's currently sat.
    [​IMG]

    Once she is all connected, Oil and water tight, I am going to start the DBW swap.

    The hardest bit seems to be the pedal box/Bracket as VW/Audi in their wisdom have put a bolt in from behind the servo, So it's looking like a servo and Master cylinder off job to get bracket off.

    Had i not already collected the parts, i'd probably do what Aragorn is going to do and utilise a PFL S4 DBW sender as it connects to the pedal on a small cable. So should connect to the existing pedal box with the addition of a small bracket and DBW unit.

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