1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

TQS progress thread, From STD-Scroll-Eliminator.

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by Broken Byzan, Nov 14, 2009.

  1. R-tech_Nick
    Offline

    R-tech_Nick Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    2
    I cannot believe how hard it is to find a reliable tuner. GGGRRRRR


    When is it my turn?? LOL

    All I do day in day out is 1.8T me7.5 and M.3.8.. Just finished a Golf AGU T304e at 404bhp 338lbft on stock ecu and VR6 housing.

    These ecu dont take 5 mins to custom map, its a good days work getting to car to run stock power with the software actualy changed for VR6 maf and injecotrs this part is trial and error on the fuel side, lots of logging of the part throttle conditions and WOT vs load conditions. once this bit is right then all the other maps, fuel, load/boost, timing ect... will be scaled correct and realates to the actaul VCDS numbers. Then its a matter of tuning, more load/boost, richer mix, pull timing in or out logging and review data the good part of 3 days work on and off.

    If I can have the car for 2-3 weeks, then I will remap the car £FOC in return for an honest review.. I enjoy it
  2. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,582
    Likes Received:
    270
    I think it's down to you mate. Just waiting for the nod when you get this 4wd Rolling road sorted.

    I couldn't say no as it was organised my my young lady bless her.

    You know you were first choice mate, was even booked in once or twice.LOL
  3. vtraudt
    Offline

    vtraudt New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just stumbled about this thread and joined. Can't open/download the spreadsheet, though.

    Here is where I am:

    Have a 1998 A4 AEB. Currently a K03 (hot side), K04 (wheel) hybrid running on stock injectors and what is called a "T.A.P. +50HP" chip. Boosting 18.5 psi at 4k, dropping to 10 psi at 6.5. Carbonio intake APR hoses/valve, 3" test pipe, Miltek exhaust, FMIC.

    MAF readings 165 g/s. Log plot below. Injector time at 16.32 ms (max I think) already at 2400 rpm all the way to redline. n75 bleeding boost all the way.

    I would like to apply your 'trick', putting a larger MAF housing on with the corresponding larger injectors (for the current setup).

    a) I was told the VR6 (what years?) has 70mm ID, my current housing 60mm. Flow ratio 1.36. current injectors 210cc at 3 bar time 1.36 = 285cc. Bosch 0280156065 for the AWM motor (278cc at 3 bar) a good fit?
    b) to get the larger housing installed, what do I need to modify?
    c) based on the log below, can I expect an improvement?
    d) what are the disadvantage of such mod?

    Next KKK variation is getting ready to be installed. K04 base with larger compressor wheel/cover. Most common tune for the AEB is GIAC PC16 (31lb/325cc injectors, running on 3 bar). Using the same 1.36 ratio, that would lead to 440cc injectors (readily available).

    e) can the mod be applied in the same fashion for a 'tune' as it does for a stock tune? If so, I would leave the VR6 housing mod in and source 440cc injectors (giving me some 'room' for the - hopefully - higher (200 g/s or even higher) air mass flow?

    I am eager to apply your mod to my AEB, but need as much detailed help as I can get (for the physical mod of the housing) and advice/comments (on the air/injector/tune side).


    [​IMG]

    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  4. ccm1
    Offline

    ccm1 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    really enjoying following this thread lol. well apart from the hard times you've come upon.

    if it makes you feel any better im learning a lot about getting good power from you and one or two things about what not to do lmao.

    just about gathered everything i need to finish mine off, just waiting for the post man to drop of my recon GT28 turbo then ive managed to get the use of a friends ramp not far from wallace performance, so im gonna get everything fitted then whip it round to them to tune it.

    im sort of in two minds about management though, cause my car is the older version it has the more basic ECU which requires a flashable chip, but if the map need to be changed so does the chip. so im tempted to either get a newer loom and ecu or standalone, cant decided.
  5. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,529
    Likes Received:
    301
    I have a later ECU and harness spare, drop me a PM if you decide you want to go down that route.
  6. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,582
    Likes Received:
    270
    More parts have been collected for my baby.

    Main performance parts were a new FMIC as my other seems to have rotted out with many leaks evident with a leak test thanks to Bill and Tuffty.

    [​IMG]
    Old against new.

    I bought a whole bolt on kit, although the IC was good the pipes were designed to be used with some OEM pipes i no longer own,lol

    So a hybrid situation evolved.

    Old Pipes, new IC and new clips throughout.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    As i had scored a bargain S4 bumper to use to retro fit HID washers and levellers onto my car.

    Before paintwork
    [​IMG]

    After
    [​IMG]

    Had to "trim" the bumper bar even on the S4 bumper to allow the thicker IC to fit tidy.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Had to make a bracket to make the IC fit, This bad boy isn't going anywhere now.

    Also had to acquire some S4 side brackets to let the new bumper fit, here's the old ones.
    [​IMG]

    the new ones are quite a lot less complicated .
    [​IMG]

    Seeing i was getting bits painted...
    [​IMG]

    before
    [​IMG]


    During
    [​IMG]

    After, with a hint of Votex on the rear

    [​IMG]
    I stupidly didn't stop there, I chose to put some more bits on while she was off the road.

    S4 vented rear brakes
    [​IMG]

    Some shiny new bushes and wheel bearings

    [​IMG]

    I couldn't leave the rear have new stuff and neglect the front so...

    [​IMG]

    They so far seem good at £25 a side, easy to fit, a lot better feel of the road.

    [​IMG]

    Added the headlight washer motor to my washer bottle for the HIDs .

    [​IMG]
    I have also added the levelling sensors and the control box so have actual legal ( mostly ) HIDs ( Ner Ner Kev He he )
    rear sensor

    [​IMG]

    Front sensor
    [​IMG]

    Control box under knee bolster fo ease of acces to wiring, it normally lives under the rear seat.
    [​IMG]
    A quick vid to show them levelling, not the best, will put it against the garage door to show it properly if needed.
    [​IMG]


    That's left me with ..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Logs to follow to see how the new FMIC compares to the old one, but i can say that the combo of new bushes and the GMBH rear ARB make the car feel completely planted and sure footed. It rides the bumps better too, the old bushes must have been properly fooked.

    I may get this tweaked a bit if Nick is still willing, or hold out and possibly get hold of a Franken..... Decisions ,decisions..... LMAO ( runs and hides before the wife spots this bit)
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2011
  7. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,529
    Likes Received:
    301
    tbh, if your going to change the turbo you need to go bigger than a frankenturbo.

    I've got my eye on a twinscroll thing from an Evo, unfortunately it would need a custom manifold.
  8. Foxmeister
    Offline

    Foxmeister Fired Up!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,779
    Likes Received:
    4
    As said before, "Noice, real noice" :eyebrows:
  9. Lee Goodall
    Offline

    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,231
    Likes Received:
    1
    You kept that lot under your hat. Loving your work mate, looking very nice now!

    What bushes are they that you've fitted to the front?

    Get a GT30 on there and stop messing around :thumbsup: chop chop.. before Inters!
  10. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,582
    Likes Received:
    270
  11. Lee Goodall
    Offline

    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,231
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hmmmm tempted. Cheers mate.
  12. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,582
    Likes Received:
    270
    Anyone else have any clues as to why the car feels ok, but airflow has dropped from the MRC claimed GS of 170 to the now seen 140 GS. I had a look back through the logs and noticed she pulled the 170 on Chipped UK rollers when she missed and farted producing less than stock power, just not seen it since
  13. rasA4
    Offline

    rasA4 Four Rings Mafia Specialist

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    3,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    Oi Mark where did you get the levellers from? i assume one is on the rear and one of the front on opposite ends? how easy is it to fit?
  14. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,529
    Likes Received:
    301
    Because you had a fapping great air leak.

    You've now plugged it, so the airflow has dropped as its not all pissing out.

    Unless the boost pressure has dropped as well? But afaik you said the boost had got higher, spiking up to 1.8bar, which would make sense given the fixed leak.

    FWIW, 140g/sec using the 1.38x multiplier from the 3" conversion converts to 240hp...
  15. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,582
    Likes Received:
    270
    Still having issues with her, 28 MPG

    I have the numbers of the parts that make my turbo.

    The compressor wheel is 53041232205 and the turbine is 53041205010. Not much data on this because Borg Warner doesnt post anything on OEM components
  16. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    Your compressor wheel is a 2077-series BorgWarner wheel with their ETT blade design. The turbine rotor is a common K03 type. Its dimensions are 45mm inducer and 38mm at the exducer.
  17. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,529
    Likes Received:
    301
    hmm so it IS a ETT compressor?

    In that case it should be capable of waaay more than 240hp surely?

    My notes say the 5010 turbine is the same size as the RS4/S3 wheel, ie 50/42mm, not 45/38?

    Heres the 5010:
    Turbine Wheel, KKK - KO4

    And heres the 5015 used on the S3:
    Turbine Wheel, KKK - KO4
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2011
  18. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    You're right. I messed up on the turbine rotor spec, giving you info for a 5303-120-5010.

    So...the 5304 part number calls for a 50/42 dimension, much better. I'd say this combo is good for 260bhp.
  19. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,529
    Likes Received:
    301
    Thanks, do you happen to have a compressor map for the 2077?

    Would i be right in thinking in comparison to the F4H-l this turbo has a slightly smaller compressor and the same turbine? I think the FT uses a 2083 wheel?
  20. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    BorgWarner never developed an efficiency map for this particular design -- or perhaps they did but it's filed away and not published. But I was able to extrapolate data from other designs to get a pretty fair estimate of its performance, allowing me to put together this efficiency chart.
    [​IMG]

    The chief advantage of the 2077 series design is that it can just barely get squeezed into an OEM compressor casting. Ours is bigger still, requiring a new mould to accommodate it.

  21. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,529
    Likes Received:
    301
    Interesting.

    Do you have any thaughts on why Marks turbo seems to be so limited?

    We suspect it was built using a K03-005 turbine housing rather than the k04-015 housing, do you think this could be limiting the exhaust side enough that its choking the engine and stopping it making the power?
  22. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    I'd need to see logs and understand more about the car before I could say.
  23. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,529
    Likes Received:
    301
    So the k03 housing shouldnt be causing an issue?
  24. Lee Goodall
    Offline

    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,231
    Likes Received:
    1
    Wouldn't there be a visible difference in the turbo unit then? You could always physically compare the dimensions to the SP51X that I have (that Kev will have).
  25. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    I really can't say one way or another. Have you logged it?
  26. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,529
    Likes Received:
    301
    There are many logs most of which are posted in this thread afaik? Theres also a dyno plot, showing the difference between marks 2077 equipped turbo and his old 51X. I'll link them here in a moment.

    Lee, i'll certainly measure up the 51X as best i can once i get it.

    The odd thing is yours is running an earlier 51mm wheel (presumably the RS4 one) rather than the similarly sized 2077 with ETT, yet made the same power...
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2011
  27. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,529
    Likes Received:
    301
    Ok found the bits i wanted:

    This is the dyno plot from marks 2077 equipped turbo at its recent mapping session:
    http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/audimad/TQS/mrc40001.jpg

    And this is the dyno plot from his old SP51X turbo (non-ETT 51mm compressor), the one i'm about to get from Lee:
    http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/audimad/remap.jpg

    The new turbo seems to tail off really early even though the new turbo has a better downpipe and exhaust setup than the old one had.

    Some logs:
    https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...W9IeUJSZDVPTFlhUUZtWkE&hl=en&authkey=CMKJtN8K

    https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...213WWVTbDBXSVY0c2d1Wnc&hl=en&authkey=CPP_3psG

    https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...WFOUGZUeldxZGlBNm9lU1E&hl=en&authkey=CNj-x4kH

    Cheers for the help!
  28. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,582
    Likes Received:
    270
  29. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    Did you log 115-118-034? Can you do this?
  30. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,529
    Likes Received:
    301
    Not on an ME3.8.3 ECU.

    MAF only, no boost sensing.
  31. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    Good grief; I'm sorry. I keep asking you this, don't I?

    Well, the airflows, then. Are they scaled? As in needing to have a 1.36 multiplier applied?
  32. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,529
    Likes Received:
    301
    we're not sure what they've done with the airflow figures unfortunately, but assuming 1.36 is still valid, 140g/sec suggests around 240hp.
  33. slappy_dunbar
    Offline

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    11
    I'm seeing 167g/s in those logs. What do we make of that? Ugh, I HATE this MAF scaling business. It's a constant frustration.
  34. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,529
    Likes Received:
    301
    This is the problem mark is battling with.

    The early logs were showing as high at 167, but now that he's fixed his leaking intercooler they've dropped to ~140.

    MRC have claimed the car was doing ~170 on their dyno when they mapped it, but have also said the intercooler wasnt leaking when they had the car.
  35. Lee Goodall
    Offline

    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,231
    Likes Received:
    1
    So MRC checked for boost leaks I presume?
  36. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,582
    Likes Received:
    270
    Well, still no closer to the 170 that was claimed and seen on the failed run once.

    After that i have been unable to get anything close, new MAF, FMIC, boost leak tests up the Wazoo

    I have tried an MBC and logged at 1.0 bar, 1.2 and 1.5

    AFR has been logged and that was 12.3 @ 4k , 11.2 @ 5k and 12.4 @ 6k

    I also noted that it wasn't holding boost too well up the rev range so have tweaked the actuator and now hold boost much better up the top end, but oddlly has made no odds to the airflow.

    The turbo seems ok, no real play, holds boost, just doesnt seem to be converting it to power. Next step i think is an FT with 3 inch tip from Doug.

    https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...DZGSlkxNE5CQWdjcXRWU0xsQTVMMWc&hl=en_US#gid=0
    my poor brakes and fuel economy have taken a heavy hit this last few weeks logging and logging and more logging

    I note that i am pulling quite high timing currently too, that will have some impact but not the 30-40 GS i am supposed to have extra

    I also noted that the injectors are coping at 80% Duty cycle which is good ( using this calculator )

    I have no idea what else to do
  37. Lee Goodall
    Offline

    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,231
    Likes Received:
    1
    If you are considering a new turbo and TIP then why not go even bigger than an FT?
  38. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,582
    Likes Received:
    270
    easier to hide... i mean justify
  39. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,529
    Likes Received:
    301
    I said the same the other night lol.

    Full frame means a new manifold, but it means you can buy a used turbo from ebay for 1 or 2 hundred quid

    FT is going to be near enough a grand once delivered with customs etc added on top.

    I'd bet you could build a T28 setup for half that, and if you factor in selling the old parts, i'd say you could go from your existing setup to T28 for not much at all.
  40. Lee Goodall
    Offline

    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,231
    Likes Received:
    1
    Agreed.. I would definitely do it (wait a minute I just have lol).

Share This Page