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Top Speed of an Audi S3

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Dave_Bayern, Feb 19, 2009.

  1. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    This post is an edit of and edit of an edit so if you search this in 6 months time, only this first post will make sense, and maybe some of the later ones!

    I just wanted to clear up the S3 top speed thing.

    You can see the gear ratios in the picture below, they are for a standard S3 6 speed box.

    If you remap with the major remappers, then your rev limit is raised to 7200rpm. I've not personally seen an S3 with anything above a 7500rpm limit as firstly with the turbo they have stopped producing torque by then, and also the S3 engine would start self destructing at anything above this.

    I have however input the gearchange at 7200rpm to illustrate the maximum top speed attainable in 6th gear.
    As you can see 7200 is not a very suitable point to be changing for the gearbox.

    Due to the nature of the turbo, and looking at RR graphs, I would expect people to be changing gear at 6000rpm, and for the car to be dropping power thereafter.

    Pic:
    [​IMG]

    As you can see, the maximum top speed attainable in an S3 with the standard gearbox is 181mph. I have assumed the 3.27 final drive, though this figure 'may' be wrong. Several sources have reported this or 3.32.

    You cannot possibly go any faster than this, physics does not allow this to happen.

    However, if you're looking at your speedometer, they can be up to 10% incorrect thus it may appear as if you are travelling at 200mph.

    If you have a big turbo S3, your top speed will NOT increase unless your rev limit increases. You will however, reach that top speed a lot quicker.

    Lets say you have new rods, pistons, rod bolts, the works. Then you might get 8000rpm which will give you a top speed of 201mph.

    At the standard rev limit of 6500rpm you could feasibly attain 163mph.

    However, none of the above number are correct until you consider horsepower. Given the K04 turbo, you would reasonably be able to expect 150mph from the car. (assuming a realistic 260Bhp)

    There is quite a few people on this site quoting higher top speeds than physics actually allows, taking into account rev limit and engine power including one person even claiming 175mph!

    [​IMG]

    SHENANIGANS!

    We can work out the actual top speed of an S3 if we can get the information on frontal area, drag coeficient, rolling resistance and engine power.

    However, we can assume a general rule that production cars with known top speeds are running a correct horsepower figure to get there.

    To get over 170mph, almost every production car has close to or over 350Bhp, with the lowest horsepower figure I can think of to attain a genuine 170mph is a Porsche 911, a car with a far more aerodynamic profile, lower drag and a naturally aspirated engine.

    This difference regarding N/A and a turbo car is important, as turbo engines tend to produce power very slowly after their midrange punch, and it takes a long time for power to develop higher in the rev range, whereas a N/A car will produce power right up to the redline.

    As is discussed further down the page, power has to DRASTICALLY increase once you hit the aerodynamic wall to continue to go faster, and that aeordynamic stop is somewhere around 140mph onwards.

    If anyone has some more information, like proper datalogs, not anecdotal evidence, it would be cool to get them in this thread...

    EDITED TO REFLECT NEW INFORMATION ON FINAL DRIVE
    #1
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  3. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    Good info Dave.
    ...and something some of us already knew.

    175 MPH...yeah right!

    Anyway...who's spreadsheet is that?
    Can you send me a copy please?
    Looks handy.
    #2
  4. A3_Turbo
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    A3_Turbo Swaying towards IHI....

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    Dave,

    Fancy doing one of those for an A3 5 speed box K03S bla bla bla you know the spec...

    Cheers :D

    j
    #3
  5. AS3TOM
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    AS3TOM Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    if thats the case then why do audi state a top speed of 148-151 (facelift) for 8L model and 155 for the 8P?
    #4
  6. golf
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    golf ***** rent boy VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    That is most probably true, and I find your efforts of winding up S3 owners commendable.
    #5
  7. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    I'm not exactly sure the figures are MPH accurate...some tyres have a higher rolling radius than others, tyres 'grow' when hot and under centrifugal force etc...but the difference is going to be a handful of MPH either way.

    Not 25 MPH as some fools have suggested.
    #6
  8. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    Edited this as Audi cant even seem to publish the right final drive info in one place for the 8L.
    #7
  9. AS3TOM
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    AS3TOM Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    good stuff, interesting post!! :detective2:
    #8
  10. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    The spec of the car makes no difference apart from the rev limit, as the speed is worked out dependent on the relationship of the gears and the speed at which they can turn.

    However, the 02A/J 5 speed box, which I think is in your car produces the following results:

    [​IMG]
    #9
  11. NHN
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    NHN Retrofitter - Audi - VW - Skoda - Seat Site Sponsor VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    Very interesting, lets just say I may have seen an S3 according to the speedo doing 155-160 down the M11 a few years ago, but do you really think it can be as much as 14mph out on the speedo, thats a fair whack huh, certainly seemed that fast when I saw it, lol
    #10
  12. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    18mph is the legally allowable 10% the speedo can be incorrect.
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  13. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    And to complete the set, the six speed 8P gearbox info. Taken from Audi's datasheet on the 3.2 TT

    [​IMG]

    Remember that the top speed figures are the speeds that can be attained using that gearing.

    To actually attain those speeds you need the power in the engine to get there. The 8P does NOT have enough power to hit 181mph.

    With a massive turbo it might, but you are getting into a whole other branch of physics working out the Horsepower needed to get 181mph.
    (About 340 upwards would do it eventually)
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  14. NHN
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    NHN Retrofitter - Audi - VW - Skoda - Seat Site Sponsor VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    would of been nice to have a laser speed check on that S3 I claimed to have seen, just out of curiosity if the speedo is that much out, I wonder if thats worth a check on a long straight race road, I'm intrigued now.
    #13
  15. A3_Turbo
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    A3_Turbo Swaying towards IHI....

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    [Feb 19, 2009]

    Wow, so S3 Top speed 141 mph my A3 175 Mph. That saying bet it would have to be a massively long straight to obtain that sort of speed!

    Jason
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  16. AS3TOM
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    AS3TOM Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    your a3 wouldn't reach 175 mph, not enough power in the engine
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  17. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    You'd need a lot more than your current BHP to get anywhere near 175mph.
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  18. Olly P
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    Olly P My other cars a mk2 Golf GTi

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    Ha ha, SHENANIGANS!
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  19. A3_Turbo
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    A3_Turbo Swaying towards IHI....

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    How about HTC'S A3 then? He would be near the 175 mph mark surely?

    Jason
    #18
  20. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    And probably 400bhp lol
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  21. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    To work that out you'd need to know the Horsepower, Drag co-efficient, frontal area and rolling resistance at a minimum.

    But I doubt it.

    I'm fairly sure you need something close to 400Bhp to do it on a normal car.

    Porsches do it on 380Bhp but they are super aerodynamic in comparison to an Audi A3/S3.
    #20
  22. Ash B
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    Ash B Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    This thread is quite interesting Dave and good to know things like this :applaus:

    What do you reckon the top speed for jonnyc old beast running at 417bhp and BigAndy S3 Running on 437bhp i believe?
    Im sure another member madalex live local to me with a s3 running at 370bhp+ sure he claimed on his facebook 181mph in his s3. But might of been 181mph to do with his father car.

    Just to make sure im on the right track now a 8p s3 running over 340bhp+ should be able to hit 181mph? But would need to work out bhp, every thing out etc.
    I would love to actually see or be in a s3 which can reach those type of speeds but i can really picture a s3 at the moment doing that. Thanks

    Ashley

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  23. NHN
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    NHN Retrofitter - Audi - VW - Skoda - Seat Site Sponsor VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    & if you believe him then I'm seriously ashamed of you Ash, lol
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  24. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    It doesnt really matter an awful lot how much BHP they are running. The absolute maximum speed depends on the gearbox, not on how much BHP they have.

    Obviously they need to have the Bhp in the first place to turn those gears but there is a point where the engine can turn very fast, but the gears can't physically turn any faster.

    I've never seen a 1.8T engine with a rev limit more than 7500rpm, so the absolute fastest that car would EVER go, even if it has 1000Bhp would be 170Mph.

    I seriously doubt an 8P with less than 400Bhp would get to 181mph.
    #23
  25. Ash B
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    Ash B Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    Lol well no i dont because if any one is going to be able to do it would be bigandy car or jonnyc old s3. There the only s3 i can think which would get close enough to do that, with all the mods and every thing. So dont be ashamed of me Nigel lol:)

    #24
  26. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    After doing a little bit of maths, closer to 400Bhp.

    340Bhp probably wouldnt be able to do it.
    #25
  27. Ash B
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    Ash B Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    Ahh i understand you know Dave. Sorry for being rather slow....Thanks for that mate. So in less rev limits has gone up and gear upgraded im guessing. The only thing its really doing is making the car faster in the revs for example like 60seconds standard 8p i believe 5.6 seconds and i think jonnyc was doing 4 some thing seconds so with all the mods there will be no difference in the top end speed. In less gearbox upgraded or different ratio gears. Thanks for that input Dave. I dont know if they every did do any thing with the gearbox or different ratio gears installed.
    Thanks:thumbsup:


    #26
  28. Ash B
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    Ash B Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    Thanks for that Dave. I will stop asking to you work out every thing now ha.

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  29. fingermouse
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    fingermouse thats me

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    reminds me of a old argument I used to have with the mk2 golf boys, my crx would do over 60 in 2nd but golfs wouldn`t. One lad insisted his would until he took me in the car and hit the rev limiter at 55 ish lol.
    #28
  30. AS3TOM
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    AS3TOM Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    there is a saph cossie that goes 200mph + thats around 800bhp, just goes to show its to do with the gearing as well as the power its churning out
    #29
  31. HODD
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    HODD Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    My GPS at Bruntingthorpe mind you, showed 148mph? so is my gps wrong?
    #30
  32. Dan Gliballs
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    Dan Gliballs Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    Excellent post, and a great reality check for the dreamers lol

    It's the same over on Vectra forums etc too,.............there's always a few deluded fools claiming 170mph or more.
    #31
  33. S3Steve
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    S3Steve Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    Doesnt the 02m gearbox in the S3 run two final drive ratio's, one for 1st to 4th and one for 5th, 6th and reverse? Cant find the info at the moment but i was under the impression that 4.2 was the final drive for 1st to 4th and therefore the the S3's actual theoretical top speed will be higher than youve calculated above.
    #32
  34. S3Matt
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    S3Matt Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    This might well be a daft question... but why are 4th and 5th gear following exactly the same line on your first s3 graph?
    #33
  35. V.I.P_UAE
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  36. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    excellent thread Dave! Reading the first post I was all set to dispute it, having seen a fraction over 150 on the GPS in my fwd 1.8T A3 (not on public roads). Then I read your post regarding the A3, and I'm happy again.

    I know for sure I'm proud to have an o2J, I personally think the 1.8T doesn't need 6 gears....
    #35
  37. WKDLAD
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    WKDLAD Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    I have done 165MPH in my S3( AMK)(17" wheels) with APR remap, and that was going of my road angel. I was only at them speeds for about 30secs though and it was down hill.
    #36
  38. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    If you look at the figures Dave has inputed, 5th gear should be 1:1, but Dave has accidentaly written 1.1, making it marginally higher than the 1.09 of 4rd gear.

    Just a little typo
    #37
  39. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    Prawn,

    The specs say 5th gear 1.1:1 and not 1:1.

    And S3 steve is indeed correct, there are two final drive ratios! (Its obvious on the Audi website for the 8P but not so for the 8L).

    However, it does change things, I have edited the initial post to reflect this.
    #38
  40. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    I did the claculations wrong on that picture again.

    With a 3.32 final drive it would mean 178mph!

    However, I've read 4.2, 3.32, 3.65 and number inbetween for the S3 gearbox, can someone find me a definite gearbox code or final drive ratio for 5th and 6th on an 8L Audi S3 then I'll update the first post with a correct picture/figures.
    #39
  41. AS3TOM
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    AS3TOM Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    what would it be with 17inch wheels?
    #40

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