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To up rate rods or not to???

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by bansheeboyo, Nov 16, 2009.

  1. bansheeboyo
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    bansheeboyo Member

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    [Nov 16, 2009]
    right i am away to get my ko4 hybridised and the best one can produce 350 horses. rods can take 300 i belive.
    HOW much IN labour do you recon it would cost ??

    seen these on the bay but it says wossner pistons is that a knock of wiseco or are these good pistons ?
    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audi-1-8-20V-...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item29f1b6cc08
    will these rods work in my a3 ?
    are low comp pistons recommended
    what about a bore out ?
    cheers scott
    #1
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  3. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 16, 2009]
    I would certainley look at rods but your stock pistons are good for more power/torque than you are throwing at them.

    It's at least days work to drop the rods as the head needs to come off too.
    #2
  4. HTC
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    HTC Active Member

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    [Nov 16, 2009]
    You won't get 350bhp out of a ko4 hybrid. You need to keep an eye on the torque though. With a good map you shouldn't need uprated rods.
    #3
  5. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Nov 16, 2009]
    Who you going with to get 350 bhp from a hybrid ko4??????
    #4
  6. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    [Nov 16, 2009]
    Thats what cr turbos told me. with a k03 hybrid 320bhp with k04 340 bhp. I didnt belive it, people onm here (bagder) said a k04 will see around 300bhp with around same torque. So you wouldnt need to uprate any engine parts i shouldn't of though.
    #5
  7. grathies
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    grathies More Points Than Portsmouth FC

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    [Nov 16, 2009]
    Wizard of Oz, he can do anything!
    #6
  8. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Nov 16, 2009]
    double post?
    Not double the funny
    #7
  9. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Nov 16, 2009]
    When i had the jbs 05 fitted it was mapped to over 300 but it had higher torque. I was advised to not load the car up on boost... meaning plant it in a higher gear and low revs using the boost to pull you along.
    This was because the rods and clutch wouldnt last too long like that.
    No k04 hybrid will make more than 320 ever and last more than 6mths.
    #8
  10. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Nov 16, 2009]
    How is the car paul? You by any chance free one night this week?
    #9
  11. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Nov 16, 2009]
    car is fine. still wants mapping again to get the most from it but... its getting there.
    #10
  12. grathies
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    grathies More Points Than Portsmouth FC

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    [Nov 16, 2009]
    I thought it was hillarious personally...
    #11
  13. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Nov 17, 2009]
    I know you did. But laughing at your own jokes is normaly a sure sign nobody else will be.
    #12
  14. HTC
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    HTC Active Member

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    [Nov 17, 2009]
    Whatever JBS quote, take about 40bhp away to get a real world power figure.
    #13
  15. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Nov 17, 2009]
    So if thats the case... i must be running 330 in jbs figures now then? As the car stands it made 285 before i get it set up to get the best from what i have.
    I made 297 at a rolling road shootout ( not at jbs ) about 6mth after i had it mapped to 311 at jbs...

    No company can consistantly make their quoted figures.

    They will all quote the best figures they have made.
    #14
  16. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    [Nov 17, 2009]
    It makes them sound like idiots though.! Feel sorry for the tick people that their k04 hybrid is running the same power as a bt :think:
    #15
  17. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Nov 17, 2009]
    Makes who look like idiots?
    If you was selling something... would you not quote your best results with the product?
    If or when i go big turbo if i get 350 bhp i will burn the car out in a field !
    BIG turbo i take it you mean gt30 and the like?
    The hybrid option of any turbo provides a low effort option for the bit more "umph" that a stock unit can not provide.
    A good hybrid of the K04 can and does make 300 bhp. IF MAPPED CORRECTLY.
    If you want to push it to and beyond its limits you may get more.
    IF i fit a gt30 and get less than 400 i would be less happy than getting "only 300" from my current hybrid
    #16
  18. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 18, 2009]
    k04 hybrids will run excessive egt's, and until there is an available higher flowing exhaust manifold available, they will be torquey heat pumps

    BT is thought of as GT28Rs and upwards... very different power deliveries tho, not bang low hit of torque, but progressive build to the limit of the revs.

    I personally say real worl figures, which are not "sales pitch" ones to simply shift a product that will unlikely achieve the claimed results - each to their own of course - not my choice however.

    throw in a healthy dose of dynol ottery into the mix and... you can continue the endless forum debates and willy waving on numbers.. lol
    #17
  19. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 18, 2009]


    NO they dont ALL do this I can ssure you ;)
    #18
  20. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    [Nov 18, 2009]
    you know who Im on about obviously then ?

    I know they can do 300bhp at a push, but from what ive researched no where near 340bhp. 60bhp over the normal output. And i wouldnt if i was selling a hybrid say it was capable of 340bhp.
    #19
  21. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Nov 18, 2009]
    Bill,
    If i came to you and said... i wanna put a GT30 on... what can it do?
    Surely somewhere in your pitch would be the best figure you have made using one?
    EVERY company claims power gains for say... a remap, each car is truely diffrent so... where some people come away from having a remap happy, others are not happy as their car didnt do so well.
    But you would never catch a company saying... phase 1 offers between no gain at all and upto 280 bhp
    The company you all seem to hate do seem to be doing ok so... its all a personal choice thing.


    As for the "60 above stock output"
    Im sure my car was 210 when it left audi and was 311 when it left JBS with its hybrid fitted.
    If JBS insisted that their JBS 05 WILL make your S3 well over 300 bhp then yes... there would be a point to what your saying. BUT its a claimed possible figure. which it is.... Possible

    I realy wouldnt care if my car made 200 bhp on a rolling road shoot out if it still went as fast as it does. Its a number that tbh means nothing to me. I had a vr6 golf recently and it was 180 so i was told. felt quick but got ripped a new arse by a 150 bhp astra. fat belly Audi's will always strugle with HP per tonne.
    #20
  22. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    [Nov 18, 2009]
    I agree to what your saying, i ment 60bhp above normal hybrid outputs. not bog standard. still think that its a sell pitch, if i didnt join this forum and looked at a 320bhp (thats the stated figure for a k03 hybrid not k04) conversion for over a grand then id be like WHAT IM getting that but now i know i can get a hybrid built for $600 and know not to expect over 300bhp.

    But as long as its fast then none of it matters id feel the difference of 120bhp extra as much as i would 160bhp
    #21
  23. bansheeboyo
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    bansheeboyo Member

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    [Nov 18, 2009]
    only way im thinking they could get that power is if they were running the mighty vp race fuel
    my quad on the dyno seen a 25 hp increase at the rear wheels
    but that stuff is mighty dear
    #22
  24. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    [Nov 18, 2009]
    have you got it done yet mate? if not that company byzana4 got his done from seem a really good price $600, in exchange rate thats about £450.
    #23
  25. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 19, 2009]

    nope.. I would'nt and DONT. Not what I do, never has, never will be.

    I am not a salesman

    Hate? who mentioned hate?


    I know more than most what is possible and what comes out of various other "tuners", as I often pick up the pieces of their rejected/disgruntled customers, who did not get what they were promised, when SOLD the particular products from these 'other' companies.

    Long may these others continue behaving like this as they're good for business (mine)

    You seem to be a poster boy for your favourite tuner, so your posts should be seen for what they are.
    ( and you are obviously very pro that particular company.) all well and good, and most people have their preferences. Others have their preferred tuners also.. Respect the differences and stop fighting others opinions, least of all, those of us who work with these things regularly 1st hand.

    Reality is some boast figures which are on the high end of unachievable and some tell it like it is.

    Figures not being of interest to you by your own words, then it would make no difference to you from what you were told when "sold" a product claiming xyz performance... Really?

    What was your debarkle re hybrid and downpipe and issues then?


    In the GT30 example, with supporting mods, such a turbo is capable of 400bhp - you would not get an exact number from me. I cant turn a sours ear into a silk purse, and not everyones motors are able to just "bolt on" a big turbo and crank it up until I get a power figure I want to see. you get what you get and every case is judged individually.

    I look fwd to JBS's release of the K04 hi flow manifold as it looks to be ideal to support a reliable higher flowing k04 hybrid option, as well as releasing an already known bottleneck on std k04's. more power to James for stumping up the time and £ to do so.


    Cranking a hybrid up on a K04 install currently is just pumping up EGT's to the extreme and it is unreliable to do this.

    Those who are cranking their hybrids up to the max to get a max power figure to sell against, is not the same as selling it with mapping to a lesser level for the sake of reliability and getting customers to sign disclaimers to turn it up to the 'max' levels.

    If the hybrid turbo manufacturer sells the unit with a max rated boost level of 25psi, and a tuner chooses to brand it at a higher level in excess of this to make the higher claims, who is correct? and who gets stuffed with the costs... its a big risk in my eyes.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2009
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  26. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Nov 19, 2009]
    A poster boy?
    I think not,
    So if somebody says JBS are rob dogs and i say not in my eyes im wrong?
    If i said... jbs ar good and somebody says no they arent... im wrong.??

    I went to JBS for 2 reasons... non of which are because i love the company and want to advertise for them...
    1... They are reasonably local so when i went for a look an saw their OEM style i liked it.
    2... when i got a call offering me a Hybrid k04 for... peanuts i said ok,

    The issue regarding The use of a 3inch down pipe was a hard lesson for me BUT it was by my own doing realy, I bought it from a lad who was having a big turbo conversion on a TT at jbs... i then took it to my unit and fitted it, Not at that time realising that it was removing a masive bottle neck and would allow the turbo to spool more meaning a map would be needed.

    There just isnt anybody around where i live that wants to offer help and good deals.
    Where the major mine feild is found is warrenty for any such kit... i have yet to find a company that actualy stand by the warrenty...

    I did ask you about my engine and what i should/ shouldnt use... i asked a few tuners but was left looking on the internet at what people had done rather than tuners.

    Didnt you used to be a far bigger "poster boy " for all things JBS and Custom code than i could ever be called?
    Hell it was in foot high letters down the side of the ibiza.
    #25
  27. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 19, 2009]
    LMAO

    You seem confused as to what "sponsorship" means. CC offered me Sponsorship to get their name on MY car for the good PR it gave THEM. It was mutually beneficial whilst it was in effect.

    Its no coincidence there is no such graphics on the car now.
    The Sponsorhip period ended, it was not renewed by ME, and graphics were removed. end of. Thats how it works.

    CC/JBS are a supplier of mine, along with a bunch of others..

    You keep bringing up the gems relating to haters and JBS..

    I am posting about hybrids and excessive egt's, and power claims not being seen or realised, where some folk (includes you) post figures which are not seen eleswhere.

    I have record of logging JBS05 turbo which logged an airflow of 250g/s which is extremely good, but the EGT's were very very high and in the unreliable zone. 1.6bar boost on a car with all supporting mods, except WMI at the time (now being fitted) - EGT's well into the 900'c after only a short acceleration run from 2nd/3rd/4th gears twice. this is a track car, so sustained loading above 1.6bar is only getting it even hotter.. scarily

    On a dyno however the actual results were quite bizarre at 266bhp and 335lbft torque
    250g/s on ball park usual comparisons would yield 312bhp, so the gap was quite large on that particular dyno.

    Dyno Lottery kicks in perhaps - who knows
    [​IMG]


    Now, when JBS have got their new K04 manifold available (I have seen pix of the cast one) I am convinced it will help out these EGT's the hybrids and K04s suffer a great deal.

    Until then however... everything I say stands.
    #26
  28. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Nov 19, 2009]
    Going off topic seems to come to every thread we post on.
    It was a joke about the sponsership !
    I was at jbs the day you had your car there and was power running it. I also saw James come to you with a graph saying "ive managed to get the 500 you wanted it to make"
    So im more than aware that most remaps. upgrades... call them what you will, seem to make the most power while at the place they had the work done.
    Strange that isnt it.
    Before we go there im not saying your own power claim is rubbish, It was just an eye opener that the operator can influence what the graph will show,
    To me... the only guide of is a car of mine fast... does it feel fast and make me smile.
    At the moment... not quite a smile. But getting there... slowly
    #27
  29. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 19, 2009]
    given the spec of the car is 1900cc, largeport ported, custom catcams, FPRed turbo (then) 007 manifold, R32 throttle body, running 2.2bar boost, the power "claims" and dyno @ jbs was 517bhp and was a step up from the previous dual plenum manifold it had been running when it got 485bhp

    wanted to make, as wanted and make, not invented, thats irrelvant.. same dyno, same tuner (at that time) so relative comparison of before and after was what was being done..
    485bhp - 517bhp - was a gain.

    everything of course subject to dyno lottery
    #28
  30. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Nov 20, 2009]
    I did hear that you had fitted a R32 throtle body?
    Is that because they can flow more air?
    Mine was dyno'd before the hybrid was fitted and then after,
    Imnot sure but think it made about 255 on the stage one map i had been running a year, Then with only the turbo upgraded it managed 311, this was later turned out to just under 300.
    Same tuner same dyno,
    #29
  31. Broken Byzan
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    [Nov 20, 2009]
    I wonder what the internal spec of the k05 is, as my hybrid is going on the A4 soon, and i am going to be happy with around 260-270 reliable powers as this is my DD.

    Now guys, stop winding each other up :slap:LOL
    #30
  32. JBS Sales
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    [Nov 20, 2009]
    Yes I think you both need to calm down.

    Getting back to the question in hand - rods or not? Personally for IHI/GT turbo setups the time to change the con rods is around 350bhp the pistons can take more, we have seen 400bhp with OEM pistons and performance rods.

    But when it comes to hybrid K04 turbos and rods I would say any more than 310bhp will require rods due how the torque is introduced compared to the IHI/GT turbo set ups.

    Now on our K04 hybrid it IS capable of up to 320bhp with the correct modifications (http://www.jbsautodesigns.co.uk/product/1743/jbs-05-hybrid-k04-turbo) without, as Bill mentioned, a free flowing manifold/downpipe/FMIC plus the usual bolt on modifications you are not going to see the high end of the figures.

    If anyone has any questions please feel free to ask.

    Mike
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  33. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Nov 20, 2009]
    When is the manifold going to be ready to test mike ??
    #32
  34. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 20, 2009]
    I went from stock throttle on dual plenum but largeport manifold to Monstor 007 with R32 manifold and gained 32bhp & 22lbft from same 2.2bar boost. I needed to get bigger injectors as immediately the 007 was fitted injector duty ran out. more air, needed more fuel flow, made more power - which was nice

    SEM mani is the equivalent slightly better version of the fabricated 007 that was available then (but no longer)

    Current setup is 80mm throttle body on SEM mani and 8 injectors etc
    #33
  35. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Nov 20, 2009]
    Are there any inlet manifolds that improve things but can work with both k04 style cars and ones with BT's?
    #34
  36. badger5
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    [Nov 20, 2009]
    #35
  37. badger5
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    [Nov 20, 2009]
    SEM is available only in S3 handed (ie throttle on lhs of car) but is available in 2 port sizes (small and large) and assorted throttle body sizes.

    The more airflow from the particualr setup, the more power (airflow and equal cylinder fill) you will get. 300bhp would likely get some gain but I would'nt expect a wow improvement, but into 400bhp region then gains are headed towards what I saw from 450bhp level.

    things to consider are would you want smallport or largeport
    would you ever likely change to largeport or not
    is a bigger turbo on the horizon.

    SEM has enough meat cast into it to convert it from its smallport version to largeport, OR if you used a transition phenolic gasket you could use a largeport SEM on smallport head, until the bigger BT plans were realised.

    several routes and choices
    #36
  38. JBS Sales
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    [Nov 21, 2009]
    #37
  39. bansheeboyo
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    bansheeboyo Member

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    [Nov 21, 2009]
    hey mike
    how long till you guys release the ko4 mani?
    how can i reserve/preorder 1?
    scott
    #38
  40. HTC
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    [Nov 22, 2009]
    #39
  41. badger5
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    [Nov 22, 2009]
    except it does'nt and wont - lol - some flowbench "facts" to chew on

    [​IMG]

    the only thing RMR has over SEM is the ability to be either side throttle body
    SEM outflows and more evenly than the previous best 007 - largeport.

    not better, just what you "sell", so its "must" be the "best" of course - ;) :p

    game on mike
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2009
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