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To Chip..

Discussion in 'General Technical / How To' started by A4Steve, Jan 7, 2003.

  1. bjacks
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    bjacks Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    JPR said:
    I wouldn't want to run too long with it knocking, wonder how that'd go with your warranty?
    Maybe once a couple of cars have gone bang from running too much ignition Audi might start to look for 'hidden' mods more proactively to avoid a payout /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No problem there, doesn't have an Audi warranty /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I will also not be running it too long with this problem - I can just go back to stock mode if needs be.
  2. Administrators
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    Had it have come to us we'd have picked this up straight away on the intital run, and there's a good chance we could have remedied this before doing the remap.
    you pays yer money....
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    [ QUOTE ]
    Ben (bjacks) said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    JPR said:
    I wouldn't want to run too long with it knocking, wonder how that'd go with your warranty?
    Maybe once a couple of cars have gone bang from running too much ignition Audi might start to look for 'hidden' mods more proactively to avoid a payout /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No problem there, doesn't have an Audi warranty /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I will also not be running it too long with this problem - I can just go back to stock mode if needs be.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    No warranty left.... so it's your pocket the engine rebuild cost will come out of! I think you're best putting her back to stock for now and getting it in to a garage to have it sorted, let us know how you get on
  4. bjacks
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    bjacks Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    JPR said:
    Had it have come to us we'd have picked this up straight away on the intital run, and there's a good chance we could have remedied this before doing the remap.
    you pays yer money....

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There was nothing wrong with it before the remap mate so there would have been nothing to pick up. After, perhaps so, but we'd best reserve any judgement until the cause is known. It could be anything to be honest. No need to all get anti-Revo on us /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kiss.gif
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    Not getting anti anything, glad you clarified that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    So you booked it in for a diagnostics check yet?
  6. bjacks
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    bjacks Member

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    If it does persist then I'll book it in. It never really gets used to be truthful, so it won't be this weekend!

    Cheers

    Ben
  7. Andiroo
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    Andiroo New Member

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    Agree with all of Crafty points, my views exactly /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Running increased boost without specific mapping of fuel/air on a RR, or indeed on the road itself with diagnostic equipment that can change mapping real time, could possibly result in detonation or knocking at worst, flat spots if you're lucky.

    Do these guys that dont have a RR do further "on road" diagnostic mapping of a generic chip start platform, or is it generic chip in and away you go?

    Andiroo

  8. scorpion
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    scorpion New Member

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    OK, in order to try and help us all understand these things without unwanted bias etc, can any 'Qualified' people answering the following questions?

    1. Please explain how a rolling road session can possibly be indicative of normal driving conditions?

    2. How long does a remap on a rolling road take?

    3. What actual values are altered on a rolling road session? (for example, is ignition retarded/advanced to avoid detonation characteristics?)

    4. Can a standard Audi performed ECU code reflash alter the characteristics of fuel, ignition, boost etc

    5. Can the facilities of measuring/diagnostic equipment like VAG-Com be used to monitor the effects of boost/ignition etc

    6. What are the 'Known' facts on the effects of performance ECU tuning on VAG engines/transmissions including references.

    Hopefully, with the right answers, we can all make the appropriate decision regarding performance upgrades.

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    In my position you'll assume bias,
    so I won't answer this one unless you really want me too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
  10. scorpion
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    scorpion New Member

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    I agree. I did ask for answers from 'Qualified' people.
  11. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    scorpion said:
    I agree. I did ask for answers from 'Qualified' people.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Don't think you'll get more qualified than somebody (JPR) working for one of the main tuners.....will you? And if they're not in the trade i.e. chip tuning, how else could they be qualified to answer such questions?!
  12. Crafty
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    Crafty Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    scorpion said:
    OK, in order to try and help us all understand these things without unwanted bias etc, can any 'Qualified' people answering the following questions?

    1. Please explain how a rolling road session can possibly be indicative of normal driving conditions?

    2. How long does a remap on a rolling road take?

    3. What actual values are altered on a rolling road session? (for example, is ignition retarded/advanced to avoid detonation characteristics?)

    4. Can a standard Audi performed ECU code reflash alter the characteristics of fuel, ignition, boost etc

    5. Can the facilities of measuring/diagnostic equipment like VAG-Com be used to monitor the effects of boost/ignition etc

    6. What are the 'Known' facts on the effects of performance ECU tuning on VAG engines/transmissions including references.

    Hopefully, with the right answers, we can all make the appropriate decision regarding performance upgrades.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Hardly qualified by ehres my 2p.
    1. Its not, but then its not meant to be. RR is a very harsh environment ( high ambient temperature, high load and heavy throttle ). If you like its a worst case scenario. I don't doubt that the tuners that map on the rolling road will do final tweaks by mapping on the road. Some tuners I know ( not in VAG market ) map wholly on the road, one is running a 465bhp/390lb/ft impreza.

    2. Depends how good the mapper is and how many problems they come across. 2 or 3 hours would be the minimum I guess.

    3. Fuelling, boost levels, ignition will all be altered. Possible other things such as cold/hot start maps, temp. correction factors etc may also be changed ( I don't know... ) How you adjust a map to prevent det is all down to how you map and the tricks you've learnt along the way (i.e. experience), Not many tuners will divulge this information, after all it is a skilled job and their livelyhood! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    4. Yes of course it can, how do you think they alter the map otherwise ?

    5. Haven't looked into VAG-COM in depth but I know it does have data logging capabilities, one of which is boost, so I guess it can yes.

    6. I haven't heard of any ( other than a 460bhp RS4 breaking 2nd gear syncro after a fair amount of abuse /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif ). I'm led to believe that the citreon rallycross teams were putting 600bhp through a Haldex unit and never had a failure.
  13. scorpion
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    scorpion New Member

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    Thanks for a good reply Crafty. Any other comments regarding the questions appreciated.
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    [ QUOTE ]
    scorpion said:
    I agree. I did ask for answers from 'Qualified' people.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    After 10 years Racing and Tuning two strokes,
    18 years of tuning cars and 4 years Working as a Mechanic I guess I don't qualify then /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
    I'll get my coat
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    Oh on point 3, it's so much what you change that is kept secret,
    it's more whereabout's in the base hex code the table for it is stored.
  16. scorpion
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    scorpion New Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I'll get my coat

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There is no need. I'm sorry, the comment I made was a bit harsh. It is easy to write the wrong thing on a public forum, easier still to form an impression based upon someone's posts. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    Anyway, come on people, lets have some information so we can evaluate what's correct or not on their merits.
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    [ QUOTE ]
    scorpion said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    I'll get my coat

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There is no need. I'm sorry, the comment I made was a bit harsh. It is easy to write the wrong thing on a public forum, easier still to form an impression based upon someone's posts. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    Anyway, come on people, lets have some information so we can evaluate what's correct or not on their merits.


    [/ QUOTE ]
    yeah unfortunately if I post anything pro this or that it gets taken as bias so I do just post chat most the time, shame really, I'll think about this one and maybe write something in detail later when I've more time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
  18. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    Good point about the Haldex - I've seen RR plots of an S3 with spikes in it - I assumed they were gear changes but apparantly they are the Haldex!!
  19. A4Steve
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    A4Steve Guest

    [ QUOTE ]
    yeah unfortunately if I post anything pro this or that it gets taken as bias so I do just post chat most the time,

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The whole idea of the forum John is that people can ask and get responses to technical and other questions, no one and I mean NO ONE is questioning your or anyone else's bias.

    So why kick the anthill.... again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burningmad.gif

    Lets all get on and be informative, so that all of us can benefit on this and other forums.

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
  20. Gambba
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    [ QUOTE ]
    JPR said:
    yeah unfortunately if I post anything pro this or that it gets taken as bias so I do just post chat most the time, shame really, I'll think about this one and maybe write something in detail later when I've more time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Just to go with fatcat's comments. What's the point in having a wealth of knowledge and experience if you can't share it.

    If you start to show your bias by flaming another brand, then I could see a problem, but if you're educating there's no harm...IMHO.

    So roll on JPR, let us in to the dark dirty world of the chip! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif
  21. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    Fatcat, chill, he wasn't kicking the anthill, it's a bit like me with Cisco - on here I am audi_girl, but if I answer a question about Cisco it would be assumed that it was a "proper" Cisco-answer.

    PS - he's been in ameeting all afternoon so he's not ignoring you guys !
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    fatcat, no one's kicking the anthill, but you do come across very aggressive some times, yet face to face you're very quiet?
    you might care to read the engine knock thread I posted yesterday, I don't have to time to answer all questions, I actually have alot of work to do imbetween.
  23. Adam
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    Adam Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    JPR said:
    Can I just point out that those Rolling Road plots seem to have been done at a dealer who supplys one of those chips, just pointing it out that's all.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    so do AmD plot their cars on a different RR to their own then? I doubt it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    oh and if you believe this: "What AmD (and their ilk) do is a remap this means they write a program for each individual car they do, thus each program in each car is different" you need you head checked! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    I actually think the before and after RR sessions AmD offer is their one unique feature and its a good idea (although shame you can't actually watch to verify it)

    but personally i reckon they do what everyone else does and puts in their std program and provided no probs thats what you get

    btw I have had an AmD chip and an APR chip and they are both very good
  24. Crafty
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    Crafty Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Adam said:
    oh and if you believe this: "What AmD (and their ilk) do is a remap this means they write a program for each individual car they do, thus each program in each car is different" you need you head checked! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


    [/ QUOTE ]

    That denotes what a remap entails, AFAIK AmD offer a remapping service, not a chipping service.
  25. Adam
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    Adam Member

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    its a moot point and personally I would call them all chipping companies - howevr a remap would be to reprgogram the existing OEM chip (which AmD do) rather than replace the chip with a different design (per MTM and APR) - it makes no difference to stealth as AmD stick a very obvious encryption module to the bottom of the OEM chip.

    and what is the difference between alterng the existing chip with std tuned code and replacing the chip with a different chip with the same std tuned code?

    I guess the point I was making is don't believe claims from some companies that you get some sort of custom chip designed especially for your engine - manufacturing tolerances are such that 99% of the time the std tuner chip program will go in the car with no adjustment - I don't reckon the "after" RR test performed by AmD is worth much (esp. as torque seems exaggerated) - it is the "before" RR run which has value to spot in major probs before chipping which the chip might exacerbate (and I mean major - don't reckon there is enough time to do a particularly thorough check
  26. Crafty
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    Crafty Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Adam said:
    and what is the difference between alterng the existing chip with std tuned code and replacing the chip with a different chip with the same std tuned code?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Err you still don't get it do you ?
    the generic solutions get hacked in, there you go mate.
    A remap means that the program is tailored to your car. This is invaluable if you've modded it (turbo, downpipe, fmic etc )
  27. Thorneyold
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    Thorneyold Member

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    Adam, the main benefit of a RR post chip is to check the A/F mixture. If the chip runs too lean (be it due to **** map or specific differences in the engine) then it will blow the engine up.

    For that reason alone I for one will never use any chip company without a RR before to make sure everything is OK and an RR after to make sure its still ok - nothing to do with Revo/APR/AMD/MTM - just common sense.
  28. imported_Little_Si
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    imported_Little_Si Guest

    IMHO my experience showed the benefit of the remap route with RR.
    My S4 was found to have a severe fueling problem on the first run up on the RR, the car was running on Lambda setting at all times, ie even when under full load.
    This was a problem that I was not aware of as the car had been the same during the whole time I had owned it.
    If I had gone for an APR, MTM type chip I would have experienced major problems, up to and possibly including ablown engine.
  29. audi_girl
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    You may not be able to see your car on the RR (for health & safety reasons) but I have seen before and after printouts which I reckon proves the car was on the RR before and after the remap?

    I am only guessing here but the use of the RR probably shows up potential problems and flat spots etc. with each car, and then the remap can be altered to cater for them / fix them?
  30. Adam
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    [ QUOTE ]
    Crafty said:

    Err you still don't get it do you ?
    the generic solutions get hacked in, there you go mate.
    A remap means that the program is tailored to your car. This is invaluable if you've modded it (turbo, downpipe, fmic etc )

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Aha - I do now you explained what you meant clearly! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    I'd be interested to see how/if companies would change your chip program if you, for eg, added a Milltek cat-back. I know Revo are tweaking progs dependent on which Forge add-ons you have, would be interested to know how much tweaking AmD do, and would be surprised if someone as experienced as MTM (who stock Milltek) would sell the same program regardless of having / not having a modded exhaust (esp as MTM sell Milltek) - maybe some "chip" companies have slightly different programs dependent on this?

    Seems unlikely to me at least (please correct me if I'm wrong) that if you chipped MTM, then went back and added a Milltek downpipe/cats/cat-back whether they would open up your ECU and re-solder MTM chip mark 2? So in this hypothetical example would MTM be negligent or does it not in fact matter too much? (just using MTM as an example here)

    I know MTM do a few stages of tune - chip, chip + exhaust, big turbo so maybe the progs are different?

    would be interested in people's views
  31. Crafty
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    Ahh, I was trying to polite, sorry /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue_out.gif
    Oh indeed, there are a variety of generic programs for various states of tune.. however what happens if you buy a different exhaust/turbo/downpipe/whatever to what the generic chip is mapped for ? You're shafted.
    I've no doubt that Quattrosports/Forge/Superchips etc can do a custom map on your car if specifically asked, but if you didn't know better you wouldn't ask would you ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

  32. bjacks
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    UPDATE:-

    Went to Revo HQ this am and Mitchell got the laptop out and logged some data whilst I was driving. All up the duff according to the figures so we swapped over to the known good MAF in their car and bingo, all spot on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    Martyn at Vagparts has just taken my money for a new one so I can start really playing. Just goes to show that a shagged MAF is not easily identifiable, especially in a standard car. Uneven running was not an issue.
    Mitchell also collered my collapsing hose - top chap.

    Drama over,

    Ben
  33. AL_B
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    Ben,

    Hope you don't minf me asking, how much for a new MAF?

    Also, could you explain more about the collapsing hose? How do you find out if your car has the problem, and what is the cure exactly?

    Cheers

    AL
  34. bjacks
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    Hi Al,

    New MAF was £186 all in, £50 cheaper than Audi apparently.
    The intake hose collapses after the MAF sensor when there's too much boost on the cars that don't have the strong ones. Revo placed a metal collar inside the hose to stop this happening. It hasn't happened to me so I don't really know what it would feel like. Forge have a video of it on their website.

    Cheers

    Ben
  35. Crafty
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    [ QUOTE ]
    audi girl said:
    Can't remember the name of the company exactly - Link... Lynx... Links... something like that?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The product you mention is called a possum, or more commonly link.
    This is basically a fully mappable ECU like MoTeC, GEMS, Autronic etc. The Link is a little special because it is a dedicated board for the car, you remove your stock ECU and fit the link and then map it, no re-wiring involved, just plug it in and remap the car.
    Of course you can write more than one map and upload them into the ecu, allowing you to write a race map and a road map.

    Link is currently available for Imprezas, Lancer Evos and MX-5s. They also do a universal ECU that you'd have to wire in yourself and then map.
    Link is well known in thge Impreza community because it gave an affordable way of tuning a car, and with a good mapper in the form of Bob Rawle it fast became *the* way to tune your impreza.

    Bob co-owns the UK DistributorBR Developments

    How do I know this ? My current car I bought from Bob over 4 years ago and we still keep in touch every now and then.

    Note that Autronic also make direct replacement ECUs for Impreza and Lancer Evo cars as well as universal systems.

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