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TiV mapping

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by jojo, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Is it worth going for custom TiV mapping on a car which already has stage1?

    Has anyone actually gone from a stage1 to a TiV map in their S3? I have a Badger5 TIP V1.12569 with a Jetex cone which has gained me a few horses, the car goes well enough, but will I notice the extra power a TiV map will bring is the question?
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  3. S3 Rav
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    S3 Rav Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Good question jo.
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  4. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Clap.

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Personally; yes.

    TiV makes a world of difference to torque, drivability and fuel economy. Seeing as you're half an hour away you'd be mad not to.
    #3
  5. S3 Rav
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    S3 Rav Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Jardo is it a measurable difference though?
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  6. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Clap.

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Yes.

    [​IMG]
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  7. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Fuel economy is no different to any other remap and hugely subjective but the gains in power and torque are there...

    <tuffty/>
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  8. Pabl0
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    Pabl0 Member

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Rather then start a new thread does TiV mapping take afew hours on a rollers? like a usual custom stage 1?
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  9. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Yes...

    <tuffty/>
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  10. Essflee
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    Essflee Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Do it and report back :)
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  11. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    I'm thinking about it! lol
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  12. Essflee
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    Essflee Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Take one for the team !
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  13. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    This will be great to see Joe. If its worth doing it should have all the othe stage one lads running for the tuners.
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  14. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Clap.

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    But I've already done it? This is my car, with a three year old stage 1 map. The only addition to that mapping is the TIV removal -

    [​IMG]

    And this is a totally standard 1.8t with the TIV removed -

    [​IMG]
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  15. Vex182
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    Vex182 Guess what I drive...

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Mine had r-tech stage 1 map from 18 months ago and had the new TiV map last Monday and the difference is good! Torque went up 15lb-ft and power went up 19bhp, revs a bit higher too.

    EDIT: Wrong numbers!
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  16. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    It's not going to be done next week folks, I need to get my S3 ready first, going to attempt the N249 delete and change the cambelt for starters.
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  17. s33nyboy12
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    s33nyboy12 Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    I'm keen, I was under the impression the tiv map took ages to do so I was hesitating on it but now I've seen put above it takes a few hours I might have it done on my Leon cupra r. Does anyone know how much it costs at r tech? I might ring next week to check availability or is someone from r tech still on here?..?

    Sean
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  18. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Your sig says Currently: 254bhp - 275lb/ft as of 11/02/2013., so you was running 235bhp from your original stage1?

    Just FYI, my AmD stage1 S3, which was mapped some 8 years ago made a decent figure on RTec's rollers(around 260 off the top of my head). Nick commented he couldn't really squeeze much more power out of my car with a custom map! But that was before he started the TiV stuff.
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  19. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    No, it doesn't take any more time to do over a normal map. The TiV thing is something that's written in the car's ECU, and what the current tuners do is remove this piece of code from the ECU which is holding it back! And as a result, the car can produce a few more horses whilst getting mapped, and it smoothes out the torque curve, instead having it wavy, as you can see in Jardo's powerplot.
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  20. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Its not just R-Tech that does torque intervention tuning you know....

    <tuffty/>
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  21. s33nyboy12
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    s33nyboy12 Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    I would absolutely love to go to bill tuffty but at the minute I can't warrant the the time and fuel money as r tech is 25 mins away from me and badger 5 is a 6 hour round trip.

    Unless bill is a lot cheaper than r tech for his maps :) ( cheeky try at mates rate cough cough)

    Sean
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  22. Vex182
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    Vex182 Guess what I drive...

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    yeh it was 235bhp before, once it ran 244 on other rollers but on R-tech's as a benchmark; 235 to 254 and holds much better.
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  23. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Feb 17, 2013]
    Jardo shows 6hp and 13lbs torque. Hardly something to be spending a few ton on jo. If i were you id go to r-tech for a dyno run and ask their honest opinion on what can be done and you can decide whether its worth it.

    Its probably massively worth it for anything beyond standard hardware.
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  24. Sam_
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    Sam_ Down under

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Hoping I can get this done here when I get mine mapped for the GT2871 (not anytime soon by the looks of things). Looks to smooth out the curve pretty nicely.
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  25. Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.
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    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev. Site Sponsor Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    I don't wish to get into any kind of unpleasantness as I really respect Nick. However, this is something I feel strongly about. Torque Intervention is where the ECU will alter the engine torque due to some condition. This can be a number of things, but is essentially done to smooth out the power delivery. When remapped, this torque strategy often needs recalibrating so as not to intefere with the higher loads/torque a modified engine produces. It is very, very easy to completely disable the torque intervention routine in the ECU. This facility exists for when certain maps are being initially calibrated, in order to easily reproduce certain conditions. Torque intervention disabled only shows increased power or smoothness if something is fundamentally not right in the ECU calibration. The key is to calibrate so that torque intervention remains, but is not triggered under WOT on the road.

    Rolling roads put an artificial load on the car, and so in some cases torque intervention can trigger giving an oscillation of power due to ignition timing being advanced and retarded. In this case, torque intervention can be temporarily disabled, but then should be reinstated for the road. If you want to know true power, then the rolling road is not the ideal place to measure. The engine load is high and the cooling is far inferior to either an engine dyno or rolling road. Either use a performance box, or log RPM signal in one gear and you end up with true, real world wheel power and power curve.

    Rick
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  26. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    dyno's have their place Rick... and far safer and legal than logging customer cars at double the posted speed limits.... That will only end badly one day for those who embark on that... No substitute for a dyno on the big power cars. Thats whats said by those who dont invest in the dyno.

    Road logging sure has its place to validate and trim, but wot logging is insane imho. I used to do it, before I bought my dyno. No way on earth I would not run without the dyno.

    high speed logging reveals whats occuring on logs, and also if a dyno's data plot smoothing is altered to show it actively wavering up and down from the ign intervention. I cant adjust mine, its does what it does.
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  27. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    A very good question JO,
    I wondered what difference this kind of mapping would make.
    Yes i need injectors before i get into it too deeply but... When i picked my car up from JBS about 3 years back ( bit of a guess time wise) with the JBS05 turbo conversion... i would say the difference was night and day. Biggest increase ive seen for my money. At that time most stage 1 and 2 cars felt about the same... other than my nasty AMD map that drove like a TDI
    I have the problem now of being one of the first to go the hybrid route and being left behind... i cant justify £350 plus for it to "feel faster" but if there realy is alot more to come ... im game.
    #26
  28. Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.
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    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev. Site Sponsor Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Hey Bill,

    god yes RR's have their place. I don't own one, but my engine builder does, as well as a engine dyno. We use them to map race engines before they're in car or non road legal stuff. Also things that can't be driven when you are starting from complete scratch. For the big power stuff, runway is the key for me :)

    Rick
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  29. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    More commonly known as the M60 :laugh:
    #28
  30. s33nyboy12
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    s33nyboy12 Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    I didn't think it was more so for increased power the tiv mapping, but a better delivery of power when you press the loud pedal that's what was drawing me towards it .

    I mean I've been in a revo mapped Audi s3 8p circa 300bhp and it was just so aggressive it put me off the car...... Then I went in an Audi s3 8p with a shark remap circa 300bhp and it was worlds apart felt as fast but just better to drive , my mate who was with me has since been in a jbs custom code mapped s3 8p and he said that was like a compromise between the 2 others, if it wasn't for the fact he decided on a new car for his mrs he said he would of bought the jbs one! I've also experienced similar when I had my focus st that was running a puma speed map which was awesome and at a place I was working a lad there had a bluefin mapped st and it was a **** remap car felt boring.

    So I thought if i went for a stage one remap tiv mapping it would still be circa 255bhp (Amk 210) but just a better power delivery.....?

    Sean
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  31. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    now thats handy :)
    aint got one of me own... boo...
    #30
  32. turnstyle
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    turnstyle Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    im thinking of binning off this map i have. revo stg 1. come with a little switch box to choose between maps. Problem is the top one (high octane) causes some funky over fueling. Get some strong fumes on idle on that setting, so dont touch it.

    The box is good i guess to set it so the engine is immob, but fairly pointless otherwise..... who wants to go to stock?!
    #31
  33. R-Tech-Nick
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    R-Tech-Nick Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Rick its is not removing the me7.5 torque structure like your thinking, CWMDAPP = 1. This is one routine out of 1000s which is being removed to give 1.8T owners a better, safe and more poewerful driving experience.


    The TIV or removal or the stock oem Anti jerk routine is one tiny area of the ME7.5 1.8T ecu which has been hindering power and driverbility since day one. Its routine which was factory calibrated by a person during the development off the code and engine combination. The anti jerk routine then got copied and used on many ecu across many 1.8T platforms, and on some/ most platfroms it reacts back and gives a reduction on the ignition angle which causes loss of potential power and and produces a higher egt reading.

    I think Rick is getting confused on what me and Bill are doing and seeing with the TIV mapping, the ecu is still running the main torque structure, its just we are removing one routine which was never right from the factory imo.

    Take a stock S3 drive in 4-5th under a light but progressive mode and you will feel the car jerk and buck which then causes oscillations in the power delivery. I can replicate this condition on all ME7.5 1.8T platforms, while on the road, while on the dyno and under all load conditions.. "with the stock ecu factory mapping" The higher the load the less the oscillations can be felt, but they are still there.

    Remove the anti jerk to stop the nasty oscillations and the car feel 50 times smoother and better to drive, and on some cars there are gains for 6bhp to 35bhp depending on the exact spec and stage of tune.

    I have updated around 60 cars with the TIV mapping and every customer has come back to be with positive feedback straight away, "car feels much stronger" "car feels much smoother" "It feels like a new car" ect.....

    This is free with all of out maps and is a free update for all exsisting customers.

    On stage 2 k04 mapping I am seeing upto 100-150deg lower EGTS just from the removal of the TIV, which in my eyes is making safer mapping.

    If it was not for Bill pointing out an issues he had on a 400+bhp then I would have never looked on to it. I spent 3-4month logging 100s of 1.8T and noticed everyone had the issue, It was during a live stage2 S3 k04 relentless mapping session I tested a few methods to remove this unwanted intervention and came up with one that totally got rid of the oscillations and returned 35-40bhp with no other mapping touched. Since that day all of our remaps 2.0TFSi and 1.8T have had the TIV mapping to remove unwanted oscillations, and the feedback is outstanding.

    I know Bills version of the TIV is also getting some awesome results and feedback at all stages of tune.

    Rick there is no right or wrong way to tune Me7.5, dispite what tuner forums say. The correct method is a whats best for the customer and safe for the car to get the results needed. Remember all I tune is 1.8T and 2.0TFSi and the results and feedback are all out there for everyone to see and read. All tuners have there own methods of tuning, I have my methods and I get results, you have your methods and get results.


    Even a stock mapped car will see gains and benefits from removing the TIV from anti jerk.



    ARMD 10.40 (Torque-Based Anti-Jerk Function


    Function purpose


    The anti-jerk function detects oscillations of the power train and damps them out by applying opposing-phase torque interventions. The torque intervention is converted into an ignition angle offset by the torque interface.


    Desired phase position of the torque intervention


    In order to damp the power train oscillation efficiently, the torque intervention should counteract engine speed oscillations. Thereby the same effect is achieved as if the attenuation coefficient of the drive shaft is increased.


    Operation pattern of anti-jerk function

    Basic idea: a reference speed without oscillation and corresponding to the driver’s demand is evaluated. The difference between desired and actual engine speed isolates the oscillation. A counteracting delta torque is set which is proportional to this oscillation.
    The function is realized by a simple vehicle model consisting of an integrator with the constant kifz_w. The input to this integrator is the difference between the driver’s predetermined clutch torque mkar_w and the load torque mlast_w. The output from the integtrator is the modelled engine speed nmod_w. The engine speed difference ndiff_w between the modelled engine speed nmod_w and the actual engine speed nmot_w now forms the basis for the torque intervention as well as for the calculation of the load torque. The load torque is evaluated proportional to the engine speed difference and the factor flrar is taken from the corresponding characteristic line. The engine speed difference ndiff_w contains another offset besides the oscillation part. This offset is filtered on a 50 ms scan timescale through a discrete second order low pass filter. (Coefficients of the nominator polynomial are denoted A0, A1 and A2 and of the denominator polynomial 1, B1 and B2.
    The filtered offset ndfil_w is substracted from the differential engine speed and gives the engine speed oscillation ndar_w.
    Proportionally to this engine speed and using the factor fdar, a delta torque as a torque intervention is calculated. If this intervention lays between the limits KFDMDARU and KFDMDARO, it is set to zero.

    Activation Conditions
    The model is always active, just the intervention can be switched off.
    Application Notes
    Conditions for calibration of anti-jerk
    The basic calibration of the vehicle must have been done. This includes the transition compensation and all functions for the torque interface.
    1. Evaluation of the integrator constant kifz_w and flrar
    Coarse application:
    Drive on the road (flat surface, no hills) at a constant speed in respective gear with the anti-jerk function deactivated (fdar=0). Then execute a change in load and register the calculated coupling torque mkar_w and the engine speed nmot_w.
    Evaluation of integrator constant as follows: at a load step the torque jump is approximately delta M (in %) and the speed approximately rises with constant gradient gradn (in RPM/s). Kifz_w is then calculated from the expression gradn/(delta M). A typical value for second gear is 4.6 × 100/MDNORM [RPM/(s×%)].
    #32
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  34. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Blimey Nick, thanks for the essay ;)

    Have there been any advances on the TiV mapping since you cracked it on my car or do you still use the same metthod?
    #33
  35. Nutkin
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    Nutkin Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]

    Yes, God bless Niki for discovering this method! A true artist in ecu programming!
    #34
  36. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    My thoughts on this, and why I asked the question in the first instance is. When one takes the route of modifying our cars from the manufacturers output, most of us here want the best possible result/power from a remap!
    If removing the TiV gives us this, then I see it as a positive to get it removed, but at the same time, I want members to know there is this option available to them, and if they are not happy to have it removed, then other tuners are still out there to happily map the car with it still there.
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  37. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Bazzinga !!!

    #36
  38. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Also a big thumbs up to all the respected tuners for giving their time and posting their thoughts and opinions on this. :thumbsup:
    #37
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  39. Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.
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    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev. Site Sponsor Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Hi Nick,

    I won't quote as it's already enough to scroll through! It was on another post that someone suggested you were disabling torque structure, I commented saying that I didn't think you would just disable it... Modifying ARMD and other torque intervention functions is of course necessary, otherwise you get the oscillations you describe. I call this just doing it properly, but I guess sometimes we should make more of a thing about it.

    I certainly agree there are different ways of doing things, and people's personal take on things should be welcomed.

    Rick
    #38
  40. R-Tech-Nick
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    R-Tech-Nick Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Look at TIV / ARMD another way.


    If its good practice to leave routines, hardware and software as VAG / Bosch intended........ So then why do we all remove the hardware "junk" to improve the driveability. We ditch the SAI, PCV, N249, EVAP, CAT ect...... this is basic stuff VAG/Bosch added to the setup for X reason and they intended it to stay.......

    Now look at the TIV / removal of ARMD as if it was a "part" like the N249, if its going to improve driveability and it costs nothing to do and is going to cause no issues then everyone will be doing it just like the cheap and easy N249 bypass, which improves the DV reactions and make the car feel sharper and crisper.....

    From Bill pointing out the me7.5 1.8T issues of the interventions mid last year It has allowed the 1.8T me7.5 tuning game to progress and move forward to offer some of the most refined tuning solutions around in the UK.... power - driveability - smoothness and huge fecking grins....... and that is what tuning is all about.

    Link the TIV removal with a new timing/fuel strategy and then improve the main torque structure which could not be done with the ARMD kicking in, then there is still huge head room for even more map quality / power and driveability......... TIV+ mapping.
    #39
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  41. R-Tech-Nick
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    R-Tech-Nick Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Hi Rick,

    "Modifying ARMD and other torque intervention functions is of course necessary, otherwise you get the oscillations you describe. I call this just doing it properly"

    This would mean each and every setup would have to have a unique custom map setup and would need IMO many many days logging and calibrating the structure for each car which I cannot imagine any tuner will do, due to the vast amount of calibration work, even a team of oem VAG calibrators could not get it correct on a stock mapping, so what chance do we have of getting it right under all conditions? lol I know for one I would not even entertain trying to adapt the code as I know under x condition it will work but another condition it will cause issues. If you are setting the ARMD calibrations on every map and getting good results then hats of to you dude. I know I could not do it, and I would rather spend my mapping time on the timing, load and lambda calibrations.... and use a few 0/1 switches and FFFFs to ditch something getting in my way.



    When I first read the fine tuning calibration ARMD methods I **** a brick...... lol I know many others will understand it better but for my tuning methods I rather not know as not enough room in my brain anymore. Same when I was at school I only wanted to lean what I needed to know... so never did English or maths but would have loved to lean German..
    ARMD 10.20 Torque-based Anti Jerk Function Fine application:


    Activation Conditions


    The model is always active, just the intervention can be switched off.


    Application Notes


    Conditions for calibration of anti-jerk


    The basic calibration of the vehicle must have been done. This includes the transition compensation and all functions for the torque interface.


    1. Evaluation of the integrator constant kifz_w and flrar


    Coarse application:


    Drive on the road (flat surface, no hills) at a constant speed in respective gear with the anti-jerk function deactivated (fdar=0). Then execute a change in load and register the calculated coupling torque mkar_w and the engine speed nmot_w.


    Evaluation of integrator constant as follows: at a load step the torque jump is approximately delta M (in %) and the speed approximately rises with constant gradient gradn (in RPM/s). Kifz_w is then calculated from the expression gradn/(delta M). A typical value for second gear is 4.6 × 100/MDNORM [RPM/(s×%)].

    Driving on flat surface. Set the product kifz_w × flrar to a fixed value (recommendation: 15). Realization of load jumps with registration of mkar_w, mlast_w, nmot_w and ndiff_w. Vary the couple kifz_w and flrar (maintaining the product constant!) until ndiff_w remains approximately constant during a load jump.

    In principle the following process is valid for the amplification factor flrar: high factors cause a reduction of the offset ndfil_w, but also a big phase advance of ndiff_w.

    2. Evaluation of filter parameters

    For a low pass filter with 50 ms scan rate, the transmission function has the form G(z) = Z(z)/N(z) where

    Z(z) = A0 + A1×z[SUP]-1 + A2×z-2 [/SUP]
    [SUP]
    N(z) = 1 + B1×z-1 + B2×z-2.
    [/SUP]

    [TABLE="width: 620"]


    [TD="width: 40%"]
    [SUP]Select one of the low pass filters listed in the table below, according to the appearing jerk frequency:
    [/SUP]TP No.
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    Limit freq.
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    A0
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    A1
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    A2
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    B1
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    B2
    [/TD]



    [TD="width: 40%"]
    1
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.67 Hz
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.0095
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.0191
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.0095
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    -1.7056
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.7437
    [/TD]



    [TD="width: 40%"]
    2
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.80 Hz
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.0134
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.0267
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.0134
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    -1.6475
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.7009
    [/TD]



    [TD="width: 40%"]
    3
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    1.00 Hz
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.0201
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.0402
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.0201
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    -1.5610
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 10%"]
    0.6414
    [/TD]


    [/TABLE]
    #40
    Benjiman46 likes this.

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