Time for a build thread....big turbo

[Dan-Jnr]

I bet it's frustrating finding that out. Kind of a waste of time buying and fitting those cams to have to go back to using the other ones.

Still you have a super fast S3.

 

[S3Alex]

I bet it's frustrating finding that out. Kind of a waste of time buying and fitting those cams to have to go back to using the other ones.

Still you have a super fast S3.

Does kinda boil my ****

They were supposed to be a drop in replacement,with no need for pocketed pistons or valvetrain upgrades(both of which we have anyway),but there it is.

These were supposed to give around 20-30bhp and some torque as well,but as it is,on 2.1-2.2bar,the car goes very well on the stock cams.

 

[jordann]

When you've got the cam issue sorted, or even as it is now i'd be very interested to see a video of your acceleration

 

[S3Alex]

When you've got the cam issue sorted, or even as it is now i'd be very interested to see a video of your acceleration

Thanks.

It feels pretty good,but I guess I need a GoPro or similar.

I'm getting a bad feeling re the cams,but I need to do some research first before saying anything more.

On the road though,the thing goes very well.

 

[114mph]

Sorry to hear about your cams issue. The general consensus after talking to a few tuners and Golf R BT owners is that S3 cams are already very good. In fact, most GTi guys when upgrading to K04 or BT would choose S3 cams over other supposedly more aggressive profile aftermarket options. Personally, I'd not put these cams back in there. I'd rather probably wait for Integrated Engineering to come up with their own cams solution, if they ever plan to.

That aside, the build is coming together very nicely. Can't wait for the next update.

 

[S3Alex]

Sorry to hear about your cams issue. The general consensus after talking to a few tuners and Golf R BT owners is that S3 cams are already very good. In fact, most GTi guys when upgrading to K04 or BT would choose S3 cams over other supposedly more aggressive profile aftermarket options. Personally, I'd not put these cams back in there. I'd rather probably wait for Integrated Engineering to come up with their own cams solution, if they ever plan to.

That aside, the build is coming together very nicely. Can't wait for the next update.

Thanks,and much appreciated.

I know the stock cams are good,and it would seem better than these things are right now,sitting on a shelf.

I know a bit more about the cam issue today,but can't talk about it right now.

IE do make some superb stuff,and I can only heap praise on the cam cover,and other parts they've sent over.....really,really nice quality.

 

[S3Alex]

I went to the AMD RR day today,and met up with a load of guys from here,and want to thank Alex again for arranging it,and Ben,Shaun and everyone at AMD for running it.

Once again,my car and the dyno didn't see eye to eye.



It starts to pull load out from 5500 rpm,and although power rises smoothly to 6500rpm,there's a good bit more to come,which we can't measure on the dyno.
The dyno doesn't load the engine properly,and the result is that boost isn't held,and power is also lost.

On the road,the car will pull 2.2bar at 7000rpm cleanly,whereas on the dyno it won't get beyond 2bar at ANY point.

I've already done the ifs and buts on the AMD rolling road thread,but if it loaded up proprely,and pulled 2.2bar,with torque maintained,it would easily hit 530bhp,which is what it will do on the real road.

Anyhow,excuses and calculations aside,it was a good morning.

 

[AndyParker]

Any idea why it's doing that Alex?

 

[S3Alex]

Any idea why it's doing that Alex?

For whatever reason,this type of dyno isn't loading the car properly,and even with the Haldex disabled it still has problems.

 

[nluk100]

They were,but oddly enough the cam profile I ordered(7602004) no longer appears on Cat's website.

http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/Audi--VW--2.0L-TFSI.html

The basics were longer duration,but same lift @ TDC as the stock cams.

70bhp for just a cam change???

 

[nluk100]

For whatever reason,this type of dyno isn't loading the car properly,and even with the Haldex disabled it still has problems.

Have you got a later (facelift) Haldex or HPA race controller? You should be able to run it in 4wd mode on the later cars? Mine has always been dyno'd like that with no issues.

 

[S3Alex]

70bhp for just a cam change???

The ones I chose were less aggressive,and were quoted as being worth maybe 20-30bhp,but the race spec cams I know are worth a fair bit more.

The downside of ALL of these seems to be the need for custom cam timing mapping.

 

[S3Alex]

Have you got a later (facelift) Haldex or HPA race controller? You should be able to run it in 4wd mode on the later cars? Mine has always been dyno'd like that with no issues.

We've tried it in both 4WD and 2WD,and in stock,sport and race modes.

The problem is AFAIK the ECU is load based,and the dyno(an eddy-current type) doesn't load it properly,so the end result it is drops load and won't pull maximum boost,so it begins to roll off boost at higher rpm,and won't hold 2.2bar at peak power,whereas on the road,it holds maximum set boost to the rev limiter.

 

[grchmason]

Have you got a later (facelift) Haldex or HPA race controller? You should be able to run it in 4wd mode on the later cars? Mine has always been dyno'd like that with no issues.

Yeah deffo a weird one as the Rs6 had no load problems by the look of it

 

[S3Alex]

Yeah deffo a weird one as the Rs6 had no load problems by the look of it

RS6 has a Torsen diff and not a Haldex.

Aside from that there's different software,and vastly different hardware so the fact that one loads properly and the other doesn't isn't maybe too surprising.

A number of people have reported RR problems with Haldex equipped cars but running it on the road has always given no issues with load or boost.

My biggest headache right now isn't that as it runs fine but sorting the cam problem.

Its looking as if it needs custom mapping for cam timing.

 

[S3Alex]

Well,both a happy and an unintended end to this part of the car's story.

After a lot of advice and thought,and I must thank Stattlers for their input also,I have agreed with Ludo and Matt from Cat Cams that the best course is to return the cams and take a full refund.

The only other option was more workshop and labour time,plus a custom remap,and that really wasn't a starter.

So at this time I must thank both Matt and Ludo for being very straightforward about it,and move in a different direction,but still forwards.

 

[S3Alex]

I think this has placed me at a bit of a crossroads,not that I want to change the car or whatever,as I still love the morning snort down the road to work.

I need to think about where I can place a few more mods,for the best effect.

1.A tubular manifold would help both power and torque,and does make a lot of sense in the longer term.

2.That may mean a bigger turbo,either a GTX3582 or PT6262/6266,to be able to use the extra flow.

3.Then getting the other injector rail up and running.


Not sure quite which way to turn right now.....

 

[KentKid]

That may mean a bigger turbo,either a GTX3582 or PT6262/6266,to be able to use the extra flow.

Well if you do decide to go down the bigger turbo route, I may know of a potential new home for your current 'smaller' turbo...

 

[S3Alex]

Well if you do decide to go down the bigger turbo route, I may know of a potential new home for your current 'smaller' turbo...

It's definitely on the cards

I'd need a 3586 or similar but also a tubular manifold.

I've found one and just need a few ends sorting out.

The "little" one is a T3 frame GTX3076 with uprated bearing cage.

 

[KentKid]

It's definitely on the cards

Then you can expect a PM from me in the next day or so...

 

[S3Alex]

Thanks...

I'll be waiting!.....it may take a while to put everything together and give AMD a few weeks rest from me.

 

[stetheo]

Very interested to hear about the next steps on this...

It's a shame about the cams but all part of pushing new boundaries on the 2.0TFSI engine. Would a larger turbo and new tubular manifold change the driving characteristics of the car with boost coming in later or would it remain fairly similar to now?

 

[S3Alex]

Very interested to hear about the next steps on this...

It's a shame about the cams but all part of pushing new boundaries on the 2.0TFSI engine. Would a larger turbo and new tubular manifold change the driving characteristics of the car with boost coming in later or would it remain fairly similar to now?

Thanks.

The larger turbo won't be an issue apart from maybe moving the boost a bit further up the rpm range,and a tubular manifold may aid spool and certainly boost torque and bhp.

 

[stetheo]

Thanks.

The larger turbo won't be an issue apart from maybe moving the boost a bit further up the rpm range,and a tubular manifold may aid spool and certainly boost torque and bhp.

Oh yeah I was wondering it it would move the boots further up the rpm range. I will be keeping an eye on this thread to see how the car develops further

 

[S3Alex]

Within reason the bigger the turbo the higher up the rpm range the boost comes in if the capacity remains the same.

Spool/lag are generally much better than they used to be.
My Escort needed a serious wake up or using the ALS which wasn't really a good thing for road use.

 

[crazylegscrane]

Have you looked at the Nortech manifolds Alex? They're tubular and you can get them mated to an Owens HTA turbo

I had a look while getting bored waiting for my APR kit to arrive

 

[S3Alex]

I'll take a look later

Stuck in shops right now

 

[nil538]

You want to take a look at Tsr performance big turbo kit they have got a lovely tubular manifold set up

 

[crazylegscrane]

I'll take a look later

Stuck in shops right now

You know the rules Alex, spend money on the car = spend money on the missus!

I think LukeHS3 on Vagoc is running the TSR manifold on his BT kit

 

[S3Alex]

Looks like I just spend as fast as I earn it.

Got a daughter at university who could spend for Britain.

I've seen the TSR manifold and was waiting on them getting back to me with a few answers.

 

[crazylegscrane]

did you cast your eye over the Nortech one yet Alex?

 

[S3Alex]

did you cast your eye over the Nortech one yet Alex?

Couldn't find it on their site,but I'll ask them for details.

I've been told so far that the TSR and Nortech are very similar,so it may not be difficult to choose.

 

[S3Alex]

Been having a lot of discussions about what to do next.....

The GTX3076 is pretty much maxed out at 2.2bar and that's from speaking to Owen Developments,and seeing what the car is doing on the road.
At that boost,it's fine,and pulls really well,but asking for more results in surge,so that won't do.

I've had a lot of help from Scott @ Owens previously,and he's been just as helpful now,in suggesting a GTX3576,with a smaller aspect ratio than I have on the 3076,to help with spool and also not lose on power.
I've asked for a bit more information on power and flow,as the compressor maps of the 3076 and 3576 don't look too different to a bloke like me!

As well as that,I've had a very kind offer of a BSH manifold,and now need to decide what to fit,whether it's the BSH(which has a smaller wastegate fitting) or the TSR.

I don't honestly think I'd get beyond 600bhp,without resorting to race fuel,as my good mate with the Golf R has done,so it may be best to stick with this.

 

[superkarl]

I've asked for a bit more information on power and flow,as the compressor maps of the 3076 and 3576 don't look too different to a bloke like me!

.

The maps should be the same thats why. Same billet 76mm wheel. Compressor maps dont account for whats on the other end. They might have different A/R compressor covers thats all.
Turbine maps will be totally different obv:
gt30

gt35


Can at least get a gauge with power you have now with whatever housing, then compare the flow of that housing to the gt35 housings and look potential flow you might gain

Edit:
Based on those plots alone you wouldnt gain much in power by dropping the a/r on a gt35 turbine.
Only real benefit comes in staying with an .82, with which you will no doubt lose a bit of rpm.

Bottom line, sacrafices have to be made somewhere. Or you NEED those cams to work lol, they will be a game changer

 

[S3Alex]

Hi Karl,and thanks as always.

Scott at Owens has been very helpful and patient,and I can see why those guys get such a good rep.

What we've come down to is one of their M-Spec GTX3576 turbos,with HTA compressor,conical nut(!) as well as uprated heat shield and bearing cage,and a Tial steel turbine housing.

The next thing is the manifold,and I've been speaking to TSR about that....they haven't fitted a GTX3576 to it yet,so I need all of the dimensions of the 3076 and 3576 for comparisons,but that's on the way.

Ahhh...the cams......they went back to Cat.
They won't work without specific VVT mapping.

 

[superkarl]

sounds awesome. The HTAs tend to get a better rep than the GTX range, better spool apparently.
Oo that reminds me, garrett launched a new range at SEMA last weekend, theyre called GTW, they have 3 sizes up to 950hp and have ceramic ball bearings as an option, might be worth holding out and putting one of those to test:


As for manifolds, Nortech are a UK maker of TSR manifolds and use a tasty cnc billet collector
Heres the 1.8t one:

 

[S3Alex]

Thanks again Karl,

I'm going to take a look at Nortech as well.

I need to get all of the dimensions sorted out first to ensure the thing fits!

 

[nil538]

Nortech is a different setup than Tsr

 

[S3Alex]

Nortech is a different setup than Tsr

I think it will come down to dimensions....

Neither has fitted a GTX3576 to their kits yet as far as I know,and I need to be sure the compressor housing will clear the piping.

 

[nil538]

There isn't a lot of room that's for sure