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Tie bars

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by s3ollie, Jan 27, 2008.

  1. s3ollie
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    s3ollie Member

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    where have you put you tie bars Top or Bottom. Ive put mine on the top and when i went for 4 wheel alignment they said that the rear was toeing in to much but there was no adjustment left. so i was wondering if i put them on the bottom weather it affects the toe and would give me more adjustment
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  2. S3ren
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    S3ren Lovely Sunshine

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    i had neuspeed tie bars put on mine at the back on the bottom and it sits fine and there no chamber now.
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  3. jesters3
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    jesters3 Active Member

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    Will be doing the KW tie-bars on mine at some point as they are the 'underarm' ones; main reason is that the cast of the rear left pushes out all the time and the best way to bring it in is to have the underarm ones.
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  4. s3ollie
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    s3ollie Member

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    what im really asking is have i run out of ajustment on the toe because i have put the bars on the top?
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  5. S3ren
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    S3ren Lovely Sunshine

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    yes
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  6. s3ollie
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    s3ollie Member

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    has anyone else put their bars on the top and had the same problem
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  7. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    What?
    Since when did toe become a factor of camber on a multi-link rear end?

    It had no effect...
    #7
  8. ash_s3
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    ash_s3 Active Member

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    Mine went on the bottom matey
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  9. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    I had mine on the top for years...no issues...
    BUT: you will throw the toe out.

    Rear toe IS adjustable...audi have a special tool for it...so should the specialists...if they don't, they can't be too much of a specialist!

    You set the camber and toe differently...
    Camber on the adjustable tie bar..
    Toe where the multi link trailing arm meets the bodyshell furthest forward. There is a scales slotted adjustment to alow toe to be re-set.
    #9
  10. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    I was hesitent to put the adjustable arms on the bottom for fear of pre-loading the CV joints too much...similar problem for on the top I suppose trying to force the CV apart...but I felt more confident with them in the uper position.
    #10
  11. Defratos
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    Defratos You’re Dethpicable!!

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    Ess knows his stuff!! :beerchug: Given me some great advice in the past :icon_thumright:
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  12. s3ollie
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    s3ollie Member

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    I understand all of what you are saying and the basic's of suspension geometry.... The thing i don't understand is why my car with the bars on top (same as your) is at full adjustment at 1.8 degrees per side toe in and wont go any further out. the only thing i can see different to most is that i have put the bars on the top.

    I have seen old posts of yours and know you also had the bars on top but you were getting toe out.... Why do you think that might be? My car is straight and nothing is bent in anyway.
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  13. chesney
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    chesney Member

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    If you put them on the bottom, then really lower the car, then 'correct' the camber wouldn't that narrow the track?

    I'd def put them on the top.
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  14. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Are you sure you are getting your toe/camber the right way?

    The adjustable tie bars adjust rear CAMBER...not TOE.
    To adjust the toe, you need to move the inner trailing arm mounts.
    The amount of CAMBER you have, is the amount the tyre sits in/out at the top...TOE is the amount the wheel sits in/out at the front.

    At the front, you adjust the camber on the ball joints, and the toe on the track rods.

    If you have too much negative REAR CAMBER (tyre too far in at the top) then swap the arms over..
    Although I'd have thought that the forge bars on the top, wound out would have given you what you need (I could get mine into positive camber at the rear if I wanted - tyre sticking out at the top compared to the centre - with the amount of adjustment on the Forge bars.

    But, if you can't get enough...swap them over and shorten the lower bars, rather than lengthen the upper bars.
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  15. s3ollie
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    s3ollie Member

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    Yes I am getting toe and camber round the right way.

    The camber is fine BTW

    The plate that attach's to the cars body on the front of the trailing arm (where the TOE is adjusted) is right up against the sill or whatever its called, and it ain't going any further out wards.

    As you pull the bottom of the wheel in with the bar on the bottom to correct the camber rather than pushing the top out with the bar on top, as i have it now. The difference must affect the toe, right???
    #15
  16. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Perhaps...I don't know. I can't see it making much difference...but I suppose it depends on where the pivot point is in relation to the centre of the hub.

    I'm still confused:
    You have 1.8 DEGREES of toe in?
    I've never ever seen a car with such a silly amount...is that really what you have?

    It should be a couple of minutes at worst (of which there are 60 in a degree)..so 1.8 degrees is plainly silly.

    What is your rear CAMBER set at?
    And the rear TOE?
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  17. s3ollie
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    s3ollie Member

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    i know it silly the way my rear tread is flicked up on one side.

    I cant find the print out but i was next to the worker when he did it. the camber was set within standard spec (green on their gage on screen) and the toe was red, maybe it was .8 per side but either way it was well out and at the end of adjustment!

    It could be that they cant work their equipment properly but my tread suggests otherwise.
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  18. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    I'm sorry Ollie..can you explain?
    I'm struggling to picture what you mean?


    Even 0.8 degrees is mad for toe.
    Normally, Toe would be measured in minutes...unles it was WAY out.


    I ran for years with no adjustble tie bars...and saw only tyre wear associated with camber - the inside edges worn.

    I then ran for months with the rear Toe not adjusted, but the camber corrected...and although the handling improved when 'sorting' the toe, the tyre wear did not alter.

    You must have some real issues if it's visibly affecting the tread on the tyres.


    Please try to exlain what you are seeing on the tread.
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  19. s3ollie
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    s3ollie Member

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    The tread looks like its wearing more on one side of each individual tread and has a sharpish edge on one side. No wonder really....

    I just looked through an old post http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/showthread.php?t=40334&highlight=rear+toe and the toe was +2.5 per side originally but they got it down to 1.8!!!

    No prizes for guessing i need some new tires soon so want to get it sorted.

    I did a search and found some posts on Vortex site and they seem to confirm my thinking about putting the bars on the bottom because of toe issues, so I'm going to swap them over at the weekend and see what happens.
    Only funny thing is you had yours on the top and got toe out! :wtf:
    #19
  20. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    I havn't read EssThree's geometry threads in ages, but I remember him having a Toe-out setting up front and not the back, are you getting the two mixed up?
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  21. s3ollie
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    s3ollie Member

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    Ess Three said: For rear toe - which is not adjustable - it sitting at toe out (can't remember the figures and I left the set up sheet down at Star! Doh!)
    But I'm happy with toe out at the rear...it aids turn in.
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  22. SHarper
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    SHarper than most

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    After reading a couple of threads about the camber of the wheels, I've become a bit paranoid that my S3 has too much negative on the rear. Other than the increased tyre wear on the inner edges, what are the adverse effects of running too much camber?

    I wondered why the 20mm spacers on the rear fitted without catching, when everyone was recommending the 15mm ones...
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  23. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    I did to start with...
    Then got it reset to parallel.

    In all honestly, it made very little difference....but it was only very slightly toe out to begin with.
    #23
  24. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    What I do remember was that it was only a handful of minutes total...perhaps 1-2 minutes per side.
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  25. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Too much negative not only wears the rear tyres, but also makes the rear a bit unpredictable when putting the power down.

    If you've sorted the front out to no understeer, the S3 will tend to send more power to the rear as you'll be cornering harder...too much negative and when the power goes towards the rear, the rear can get a bit squirmy and twitchy.

    Very little negative at the rear (0.5 degrees) and parallel to sorts it out, I found.
    #25
  26. s3ollie
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    s3ollie Member

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    Well i have moved the bars to the bottom position and i have to say the rears 'look' a lot better. It also seems to corner a lot better now. I left the toe where it was but adjusted the camber by eye from the wheel arch. so when i get it aligned ill it should be even better. I'll then be able to tell if the toe has altered.
    #26
  27. s3ollie
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    s3ollie Member

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    I went for alignment after moving the bars to the bottom and it does indeed alter the toe. before adjustment with bars at top it was +1.8 per side and with bars on bottom making no adjustment from before it was -0.3 per side
    #27
  28. fingermouse
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    fingermouse thats me

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    having the same problem a you s3ollie , looks like i`ll be moving my bars then going elsewhere for alignment. What where the final settings you went with ??
    #28
  29. Ian W
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    Ian W Active Member

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    I put my KW ties bars on the bottom, was pretty easy to tell as there is a specific part where to bolt on the sensor that connects to the tie bar that you only have on the bottom one (if that makes sense).
    #29
  30. SHarper
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    SHarper than most

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    Words of wisdom from Ess Three. I didn't do anything about the amount of rear camber...

    Coming home on Friday night, the car started making an unearthly racket, managed to get home and upon removing the wheel centre cap, three sheared wheel bolts fell out, I removed the wheel, to remove the spacers and there is a crack all the way around the shouldered part where the wheel locates. The new tyres that I had on the rear four months ago were down to the wear markers (that's two rears to every front).

    I've been to JBS today to order my adjustable tie-bars, whilst there I showed them my broken spacer, to discover that H & R won't sell them in ones, I'll have to buy a pair, so that'll have to go on hold.

    I've also splashed out on four Goodyear F1 Asymetrics and they seem to have transformed the handling of my car, should be even better when the tie-bars come. All I've got to do now is the grumbling front wheel bearing and a 40,000 mile service (including the cambelt and water pump for peace of mind). Then everything should once again be hunky-dory, even though I'll be a grand lighter.

    So the moral of this story is:- If you lower your S3 and you've got loads of negative camber, don't put on 20mm spacers, they'll only exaggerate the problem, make your back end twitchy, wear out your tyres at an unacceptable rate and shear your wheel bolts. Get some tie-bars fitted first...
    #30

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