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TDI 90bhp tuning!

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by jonnyf, Nov 22, 2009.

  1. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Apr 21, 2010]
    alright lads well there in, upgraded from the standard .184 nozzles to the .216 and theres not really a major difference on smoke tested on motorways and rural roads at different speeds and revs. Not a huge difference in speed slight upgraded acceleration but im pretty sure there not gonna be at there best until i get it chipped which is as soon as i can get a booking! easy job really! laughing
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  2. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Jul 5, 2010]
    Right ive finally had the car chipped and it came out the other end with 120hp! which you really can notice, its much more responsive, no dead spots and just seems to go! only one problem though..i think with putting the bigger injectors in its caused it to smoke a lot, and it does smoke quite badly! i wonder is there anybody who knows how to reduce the smoke? (exhaust, turbo, intercooler?) any help would be apprecciated but i would reccommend getting it done to anyone! but it does smoke.
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  3. sulaiman
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    sulaiman Member

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    [Jul 5, 2010]
    Where did you get the chip/remap done? Cheers
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  4. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Jul 5, 2010]
    Auto mark in stokesley, middlesbrough, was 300 quid which i think is quite steep but he explained how he does it and its totally custom for each car!
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  5. CraigG
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    CraigG Member

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    [Jul 5, 2010]
    300quid sounds very cheap for a 'custom to each car' remap... to me thats more of a bolt on chip for a 90hp unfettled engine (ie one using the .184 injectors) as you have .216 injectors, to me this would explain the added smoke...
    #45
  6. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Jul 6, 2010]
    no its a definite custom remap, this guy knows whats hes talking about i used to work for him a few years back so i know what goes on, he also blocked off the egr valve to reduce the smoke, he had it kicking out a little bit more but had to change some more settings as it was smoking even more, he did seem to think bigger injectors would cause a problem, and 300 quid was cash lol it normally costs 400, anyone any ideas where i can get a hybrid turbo made about from turbo dynamics?
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  7. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 7, 2010]
    Was the engine running smooth with the 0.216 nozzles ? The reason i ask is that i have fitted audi a6 140|Bhp injectors to me transporter 2.5 tdi and the iddle was very bad. I had to do the hammer mod to get it running smooth. Also, the t4 150Bhp/audi a6 140Bhp injectors are calibrated to the nozzles so they work corectly pop pressures and all. Did you had yours balanced ? Just the nozzles alone should have given you a good 20Bhp alone so the tune is very rubbish if it only musters 10 bhp more. There is no difference between the 90 and 110 engines just the turbo/map and nozzles make the difference. You can get a custom vastegated turbocharger, look for a transporter t4/LT kkk turbocharger and have an adaptor made to fit the exhaust downpipe. Its much larger than the hair blower you have under the bonnet...
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  8. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Jul 7, 2010]
    erm it was a bit smokey with the .216 nozzles and it seemed to run okay although i never really noticed much in power difference? i have a photo of the chart he gave me with the chipping results if that helps? i didnt have them balanced or anything like that no is that a must? how easy is it to get one of them turbos? and where would you get the adaptors etc cause im looking into it right now! lol Cheers for the help mate!
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  9. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Jul 15, 2010]
    Ive just got myself a turbo gauge to see what my turbo is pumping out and make sure i cant get any more out of it. hopefully to stop the black smoke, but the turbo running at bout 15 psi footdown and spikes to about 17-18 sometimes which i believe is right. so intercooler seems to be the only option available to me now! does anybody know a direct swap or how hard it is to get it right? all this being said i spoke to my tuner and hes more than happy to turn down the fuelling but it will be at the loss of my power! maybe the injectors i got were just ****? Any help appreciated! Cheers
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  10. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    As i said, i would rather take a set of used injector from a t4/ a6 AEL with 180K on them than a "new" set of chineze nozzles off ebay. Also, to get the 0.216 nozzles flowing properly you will need the AEL Bosch injector body as well as they are diiferent from the 90Bhp ones and will work much better... The genuine Bosch 0.216 nozzles should give a nice boost right after fitting with no chip. A good chip should work with the nozzles not arround them ! I would say get a new set of injectors(check ryanp off tdi club- he's selling genuine bosch injectors on ebay as well) and do a hammer mod. I believe your cheappo nozzles have the wrong spray pattern hence the minimal power increase and excesive smoke. The increased EMP will destroy your turbo so be carefull !
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  11. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Jul 18, 2010]
    i had a feeling you might say that! is it worth putting my old nozzles back in and tell my tuner to re chip it to those or will i lose out on power, how much do these nozzles and that sell for? and whats this hammer mod ive heard mentioned a few times? (noob) haha, isnt 120hp good from a 90hp engine? it certainly feels a lot better!
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  12. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 19, 2010]
    the 90 bhp lump tunes to 180Bhp at the wheel with bolt-on mods:VNT 17/20 turbocharger, 11-12mm pump head and big nozzles. The thing is you better buy a new set of injectors as the new nozzles deforms to fit the new body when you swap them and they will leak internally. Its high boost you need to watch as the head tends to lift-off the block with big turbochargers and after 200Bhp the rods need replacing as they bend like chopstics...
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  13. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Jul 19, 2010]
    how much are these injectors and where from?
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  14. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 21, 2010]
    ryanp off tdiclub. He is based in yorkshire and also sells stuff on ebay...
    #54
  15. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Jul 22, 2010]
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  16. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 23, 2010]
    Those are just the nozzles, and probably similar to what you aleady have.

    As adam has said, the larger injector bodies are probably also going to be needed to maximise the gain from the upgrade, so you need the complete injector.
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  17. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Jul 23, 2010]
    found some for 230 quid with the injector bodies and nozzles genuine bosch ones, anyone used these? there supposed to be a smoke free upgrade, and seem like a pretty decent price from that ryanp, my tuner will turn the fuel injection up or down for free until im happy?
    #57
  18. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 29, 2010]
    I will do the hammer mod first without going to your tuner ! If your engine is restless(not idling properly) then adjusting the injection quantity is a must THEN see your tunner. Also, upgrading the side intercooler to a larrger FMIC is advisable but not if you keep the stock turbo. T#You should see a nice 20+ Bhp increase from just the nozzles but your clutch wont last long. Fortunately, the early 1.9 Tdi engine has no duall mass flywheel wich means that a stronger clutch can be fitted from the rs2 5 pot engine. Quite easy upgrade but the flywheel will need re-drilling in order to take the new clutch. Then you could put all the 300Nm you will gain from the re-map all on the road !
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  19. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Jul 30, 2010]
    ive just put those injectors in today, and what a difference they make!!!! easily feels about an extra 20hp but the smoke is still quite bad so ill have to try the hammer mod and borrow a vag com from someone! it only seems to be at full throttle that it smokes so i think the hammer mod would do the trick?
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  20. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Jul 30, 2010]
    another quick update! i seem to be learning more and more everyday! i have been told about re using old injector copper sealing washers so have ordered some new ones from audi today and when i get em ill pop the injectors back out and have a good old clean up to make the seal as good as possible, you see if there not sealing properly then excess fuel will leak into the engine chamber causing excess smoke! after this i will see the difference and then look into replacing some intercooler pipe connections as theres fresh oil under some of them, and especially the connector between the pipe and the turbo, it all needs looking at! ill keep you updated. lets hope my clutch lasts the night.
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  21. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 30, 2010]
    Money well spent then,eh ?! Do the hammer mod but have an assistant in the car ready to stall the engine if everything goes wrong ! I heard of people experiencing engine runaway dew to adjusting the pump head too much so be carefull and read the procedure properly or go to someone who does know what they are doing ! After that see your tunner and see what they can do about-it. I wont bother as the fueling will be higher on full throttle but will be ok in normal drive. However, too much smoke will raise the EGT wich will damage your turbocharger.
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  22. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Jul 30, 2010]
    yeah it wasnt half! definately can confirm that changing the full injector bodies aswell as nozzles is the way forward i have the bosch pp764's in now, in case anyones wondering. Next step ill try the hammer mod to see if i can reduce the smoke at full throttle as i believe thats what its for? but firtst ill crack on with the other fixes i mentioned earlier see what kind of difference that makes!
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  23. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Aug 1, 2010]
    I found this and i think its exactly what im looking for? it means no modifications but a larger area to cool the air and perhaps ill have to make a bit more air flow into where this intercooler is mounted, will it give a significant performance increase? i think ive the bug for this tuning malark now. Anyone used a hybrid turbo for my car from turbodynamics i think the price was around £900 which seems a bit steep

    http://www.tyrolsport.com/index.php?p=product&id=46&parent=67

    http://www.tyrolsport.com/index.php?p=page&page_id=b5smic
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  24. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 2, 2010]
    A lot of money for an intercooler ! I would look for a BMW 525 Tds intercooler and a few silicone pipes and thats easy to fit to your passat/a4 with just a bit of welding to the cross member.
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  25. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Aug 2, 2010]
    how much do they go for like? would it fit where the standard one is its quite a tight gap!
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  26. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    I will take a picture of the one i've have on one of me cars, its by no means a clean set-up but it works. Also, the stock intercooler is very efficient as it is so i would only upgrade if you get a bigger turbo.
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  27. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    The side mount on a 1.8T is pretty hopeless, so i cant see the TDi one being much better.

    You could perhaps look at getting a drivers side cooler from an S4 or 2.5TDi and making up some pipework to make it work?
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  28. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 4, 2010]
    Its more than adeqwate for a 90Bhp diesel lump ! The 1.9 PD Tdi intercooler is slightly bigger and thats for a 130Bhp. They remap just fine on stock internals to about 160-180Bhp depending on dyno !?! The s4 and v6 tdi are the same and slightly bigger. I reckon a front intercooler will be better but only required if there is a big turbo to go on or the nozzles are to be upgraded. For example the side mounted intercoolers are fine up to 270Bhp on the v6 tdi (or s4 for example) and only if chassing ridiculous power figures or someone is fitting hybrid turbos then the intake needs cooling ...
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  29. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 4, 2010]
    point is, if you wind up the boost on a stock turbo, it becomes less efficient. Therefore wringing the neck of a turbo designed for a 90hp tdi, is going to produce an intake charge thats much hotter than flowing the same amount of air from a larger turbo (for example the 130pd turbo).

    S4 and V6 tdi have two coolers, as does the B6 1.8T 190hp. On the S4, even with its two, the stock coolers are limiting even with a basic remap, and upgrading them or fitting a front mount will see a reasonable increase in power without doing anything else.
    #69
  30. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 4, 2010]
    I do understand your point but the factory intercooler is pretty eficient on diesels as they run lean anyway. A really big intercooler will actualy be detrimental to any tdi as most run VNT turbos and there would be much more lag as the air wont move fast enough. The tiny wastegated Borg Warner or Garrett as fitted to the 90Bhp lump wont run for too long overtime before snapping the shaft so thats the first thing to consider. The s4 is in another league and the car's engine management will detect the colder intake so it will adjust the timing to suit. The tdi isnt quite so capable and the timing adjusting capacity on the early ECU is very limited + advancing the timing increases the cyl. pressures and temperature very sharpish. Also the major difference between the diesel and petrol engines is the way they mix fuel. the tdi needs time to compress the air in order to ignite the petrol mixes-it in the inlet tract(apart from the very latest FSI engines) so a better mix will actualy increase power. On the tdi the higher the injectors pressures and the nozzles size the more fuel can be crammed into the piston but it still relays in it igniting before TDC. The new common rail engines do away with the timing advance as the ECU has complete control on timing advance so their power delivery is completely different to the PD engine wich was a technological dead-end for VAG group. However the new CR have their limitations as well (emission being one of it) and they are overcomplicated wich means they will break more often as oposed to a "dirtier" VE or PD engine. Back to our point the diesel are easy to tune as they run lean so if you force more fuel into the piston you will still get a decent burn. The petrols still rely on the stoichiometric air/fuel mix so its only soo much they can advance/retard timing or run lean or rich to do substantial damage to the pistons and valves. Also too much boost in a diesel does not mean it will take-it and too much fuel will melt pistons or lift the head as well. Tuning tdi is a fine art nowadays ! Cheers.
    #70
  31. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Aug 4, 2010]
    u guys know too much haha! very useful! has anyone ever fitted a second cooler how difficult is it? and what about those fmic are they difficult and how noticeable are they? like you say the cooler air on the turbo the better surely? unless perhaps itwould cause a lag
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  32. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Aug 6, 2010]
    anyone?
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  33. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 6, 2010]
    Its certainly not going to be a bolt in job.

    You'll need to be happy to cut and shut pipe work, move things around, make up the odd bracket etc to do either approach.

    I've no idea on the layout of the boost pipework on a TDi. On a 1.8T the turbo uses the cross pipe on the bottom of the lock carrier to send boost to the intercooler/inlet, but from memory the old TDi isnt a crossflow engine, so the pipeworks likely to be different given the turbo and inlet are on the same side.
    #73
  34. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Aug 6, 2010]
    ahh right i see, so do you not think that smic i found the other day would help at all? because any other way seems like a load of hassle, bearing in min di probably will be gettin a hybrid turbo from Turbo solutions? have u heard of these before from darlington?
    #74
  35. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 6, 2010]
    The one you posted earlier is just an upgraded version of what you have.

    While yes it will improve things, what you really want is more surface area.

    I'd be cheaper to buy a used cooler from a v6 tdi and make it fit, than spend £500 on an upgraded intercooler like the one above.

    As for the hybrid turbo, you need to stop and decide what you actually want from the car, instead of randomly just throwing bits at it.

    Before you go near specifying a turbo, you need to work out your power goal, and you need to plan a series of modifications around getting to that goal.

    To me, an intercooler upgrade is one of the first things you should be looking at doing on any turbocharged car when you start tuning it, because the stock cooler is typically only just big enough to cool the stock engine.
    #75
  36. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Aug 6, 2010]
    well at the moment ive got those bosch p764 injectors in with a remap which i reckon is giving me around 140bhp now and it is fairly nippy im looking for around the 180bhp mark so i think i just need a larger intercooler with a hybrid turbo and possibly a clutch upgrade, im not just throwing things at it im just trying to find out whats works best for the old girl lol
    #76
  37. Acidburn
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    Acidburn New Member

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    [Aug 6, 2010]
    interesting thread this, i've also got a 1.9tdi ahu setup and looking for more power, getting mixed answers from people so will be following this.
    #77
  38. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 6, 2010]
    forget about a "hybrid" turbo, you just need a standard one thats much bigger.

    Hybrids basically mean someones fiddled about with it, using bits and bobs from different turbos to make something that may or may not be better.

    I'd suggest fitting the GT17 or GT20 used on the higher power VAG PD engines, but they're VGT turbos and i've no idea how you'd make one of those work on your car. Finding a large wastegated turbo from a diesel engine that makes around 150hp from similar capacity would be the way forwards imo. Landrover TD5 engines use a wastegated GT20 thats good for about 200ish, but i suspect it might be a bit laggy on a 1.9.

    If your wanting 180hp you WILL need to upgrade the intercooler. Thats the equivalent airflow to a petrol engine making around 270hp, which is waay beyond what the stock tiny intercooler can handle. You need either a proper front mounted job, or a second side mount. If you post some pics of the boost pipework, it should be possible to suggest if the common 1.8T front mounts that pop up on ebay will fit.
    #78
  39. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 7, 2010]
    Jonny, as Aragorn said, you are peeing in the wind trying to tune a 90Bhp ALH to 180Bhp on a wastegated turbo. Any big wastegated turbo wich will be able to flow 200Bhp reliably will be very laggy under 3000rpm and the car wont be easy to drive. Yankees get a Garrett VNT 15 turbocharger on their 90Bhp engines so fitting a bigger (VNT 17,VNT 20) is relatively easy. You could also do that by swapping to a VNT set-up or buy a whole AFN engine with ECU and wiring loom or sell your car alltoghether and start tunning that. Also, the head will lift if you upp the boost too much so upgrading the head bolts to the PD 150 ARL engine is a good ideea. Also, the conrods will bend like chopsticks if your new turbo will start creeping or you get a bad tune ! I would say that a AFN on a 11mm pump + 0.216 transporter injectors and a VNT 17 turbo with a good tune will get you 170 Bhp reliable but anything over that will require engine work. Your old clutch will stand no chance to that abuse so a Sachs Race engineering clutch with a organic disc is the way to go and will feel fairly stock. Spend the money once is the way to go as power is addictive and you will get bored of the stage 1 and will jump right to stage 4 !
    #79
  40. ruairi83
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    ruairi83 Active Member

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    [Aug 11, 2010]
    ive got a 90bhp a3 agr.

    I put 110bhp bora injectors, kN Filter, Decat and Remapped (chipped). She is currently sitting at 137.8bhp and that aint to bad for the small mods ive done mate.
    #80

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