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TDI 90bhp tuning!

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by jonnyf, Nov 22, 2009.

  1. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Nov 22, 2009]
    Hi everyone at the moment ive got a 90bhp 1.9tdi and after sorting out body work and interior its now like an s-line! it could just do with a little more woomf! i hear about getting it chipped ive got a bloke down my end who will do it for me and he reckons that will bring it to about 110bhp? larger turbos - how much do they cost and what make and where to get them from? and what BHP id expect to get from that? would you want a chip after or before the turbo? and the same goes for injectors? any help would be much appreciated thanks! Jonny
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  3. manzi
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    manzi Member

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    [Nov 22, 2009]
    i'd also like to know this info as i'm rocking a 1.9 tdi 110 horses and wanting that bit more.

    its kinda a major step down this tdi from a Vento VR6.
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  4. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 22, 2009]
    I'm not sure if the 90hp and 110hp turbos differ, if they do you really want to get yourself the turbo from a 130hp tdi as a starting point.

    The injectors on the 90hp motor are definately smaller, and that would be my first step. You could either fit 110 injectors, or some proper upgraded items from the likes of kermatdi

    a remap should come after all your modifications, and you will need a proper remap, not just an off the shelf chip if you've been changing injectors and the turbo etc.

    You'll probably find the injectors alone will give you a nice boost, but you'll need a remap to optimise the fuelling otherwise it'll be black reek central.

    I have to say a 90hp A4 must be bloody appauling to drive, would be like driving a 1.0 corsa, they're slow enough with a 150hp turbo engine.
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  5. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Nov 22, 2009]
    Ahh right so where do i get a 130 turbo from anyone have any ideas or what prices there at? and as for injectors any names and prices of where to get them? its a custom chip not like a box one, automark tuning in stokesley, ha its not that bad for a 90 in all honesty but like i say could use a bit more! Cheers for the help much appreciated
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  6. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 22, 2009]
    B6 A4's have the 130hp engine, not sure if the turbo would bolt streight on though, you might need the manifold too.

    KermaTDI is the only name that comes to mind for the injectors. There are probably others, but i've never looked into it too much.
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  7. redevo1
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    redevo1 Member

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    [Nov 22, 2009]
    KermaTDI look expensive what about a set off 216 nozzles off ebay? Usualy pick a set up for around £70
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  8. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 22, 2009]
    Depends how extreme you go.

    .216's are the largest OE injectors so as a cheap upgrade they'll do the job!
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  9. redevo1
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    redevo1 Member

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    [Nov 22, 2009]
    How would the nozzles run without a re map on a 90 or 110 tdi?
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  10. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 22, 2009]
    No idea! At worst it will smoke lots and run dangerously high EGT's i would imagine.

    Kerma sell a aftermarket 214 nozzle which they claim gives an easy "No-Smoke" upgrade, so it cant be THAT bad i wouldnt think.
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  11. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Nov 22, 2009]
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  12. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Dec 8, 2009]
    hello people! still more questions! ive looked into it quite a bit and many sites and people are telling me to upgrade to .216 nozzles? but my tunersays he can get enough out of my standard .184 ones or should i get the .205 just in between and fitted to the standard 110bhp model? Cheerrs
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  13. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 8, 2009]
    define "enough"?

    216's will give you more than the standard ones.

    Cost difference between 205 and 216's will be negligable so you may as well throw the biguns in

    I suspect your tuner is rubbish, using an off the shelf map, and wouldnt have a clue what to do on a non-standard engine.
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  14. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Dec 8, 2009]
    im just worried about too much smoke is all, he says hes had 90's smoking before on standard, hes a well known tuner in stokesely and only does custom maps to the individual car, yeah prices are the same do u think i would notice if i upgraded then without a map?
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  15. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 9, 2009]
    if you simply jammed them in you'd likely find it would smoke, as your not adding any extra air.

    I've no idea how the 90 and 110 turbos compare, or if both engines are intercooled, but if they're the same, then it should be no different to tuning a 110.

    If they're different then you might need to fit the 110 parts to get enough airflow.

    A quick check of the parts catalog does indeed show two turbos, 110 does seem to have a different unit. Intercoolers are the same thou. Perhaps even using a turbo from a 130hp B6 would give you the most headroom?

    A quick google also finds reference to the 90hp engine making 140hp with upgraded injectors and a remap, and no extreme smoke, so more will be possible with a larger turboas well.
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  16. voteforpedro
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    voteforpedro Member

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  17. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 9, 2009]
    Watch that guide as when it says "A4" it means the A4 platform, which is mk4 golf, and not the Audi A4 model.

    You have a B5, but it should be similar enough to B4 on there.

    It seems that .216 and some tweaks to the ECU will get the most out of those injectors, and it looks like you wont even need a remap...

    More can probably be had with a remap and VNT17 ofcourse.
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  18. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Dec 9, 2009]
    I would throw the 0.216 nozzles in and ho the "hammer mod" also you will need to reduce the injected quantity at idle with VCDS(vag-com). The turbochargers are different between the 90 and 110Bhp, the later one is VNT operated and the 90 Bhp being a vastegated Borg Warner(KKK) blower. You will need to upgrade more to get your car fitted with a PD turbo. For starters, the ECU needs replacing, allong with the engine loom, manifold, injectors and few boost pipes and solenoid valves. Its much easier to sell yours and buy a 110Bhp and you will have a better turbo and +20 Bhp as well. Then its quite easy to tune that further. Throw bigger nozzles, a decent chip job(remaps do not work on these early ECU so chips needs soldering to the ECU with the new map written on them) and a PD 130 turbo(you will need a boost pipe to mate it to the inlet as well) and you are looking at 160Wheel horse power wich feels better than a PD at 180Bhp...while still getting 50Mpg ! Kerma TDI also does a cast/tubular manifold wich allows fitting of a GTV 2050(aka VNT 20) turbocharger from the later V6 Tdi engine wich can flow 200Bhp reliably all day long(they max at 250Bhp). Then you are talking big power with masive torque as the VNT 20 spools from 1500rpms. You will need a single mass flywheel and SACHS heavy duty racing clutch to put all that power to the floor. Or you can sell and buy a PD 130 and have a fresh start with just a remap they get about 160-180 Bhp but they eat clutches/DMF on a regular bassis... Or you can buy a quattro V6 tdi, throw a set of Bosio race 683 nozzles, fit a hybrid turbo and have a decent remap for 260+Bhp and over 600Nm of torque! You wont have trouble putting the power to the floor, have a really strong Getrag 6 speed gearbox, heavy duty clutch as standard( up to 450Nm with no complains) and a smooth engine wich feels like a petrol(in gear) with 140Mph+ top speed and high 40Mpg fuel consumption...
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  19. voteforpedro
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    voteforpedro Member

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    [Dec 9, 2009]
    AFAIK the 90bhp TDi engine for both A4 and Mk3 Golf is engine code AHU so the guide should apply just fine.
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  20. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 9, 2009]
    yes, but Mk3 golf is A3 platform

    so you need to follow the A3/B4 platform guides, not the A4 one...
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  21. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Dec 9, 2009]
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  22. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 9, 2009]
    That turbo wont fit your A4 i dont think. Its from a ford galaxy/seat alhambra/vw sharan.

    You couldnt just fit an off the shelf chip with 216 nozzles, but with a PD130 turbo and a proper remap, 160hp should be attainable.

    My only concern is what adamss24 said up there^ He said that your current turbo is a KKK chappie (i make it out to be a Garrett GT1544S) and has a wastegate, whereas the bigger turbos are VNT units which have a vacuum controlled solenoid gubbins to control the boost. If thats the case your ECU might not have the wiring/pipework to run a VNT turbo.
    It also seems that the 110hp A4's have GT1749V's as standard anyway, so thats plenty big enough for 160hp.

    You just need to find out more about the control hardware between the two.
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  23. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Dec 9, 2009]
    the GT1749V has a wastegate aswell doesnt it? its not an off the shelf chip it will be custom for my car lol, so are you recommending a GT1749V, .216 nozzles and a chip to set me to around 160hp?
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  24. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 9, 2009]
    1749V is a VNT turbo, it doesnt have a wastegate, just a variable turbine nozzle.

    Thats what you need (as long as the turbo is from an A4, not a golf or whatever), but i just dont know if your current ECU and engine harness can control it.
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  25. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Dec 9, 2009]
    Ive got sum pics of mine(how do i upload them?) if thats helps to show what it is and if the new one will fit? would we not assume they kept the same harness on the two models for cheaper building costs?
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  26. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Dec 10, 2009]
    has no1 else tryed to do this? it makes me more determined to do it if no1 else has haha! im nearly done with the cosmetic side of it so now im starting on the engine, do i use photobucket to upload?
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  27. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Dec 10, 2009]
    No mate, the harness and ECU are definately different between the 90Bhp and 110Bhp. The ECU on the 90Bhp has the MAP sensor on board so, there will be a small pipe conected to the ECU. The 110Bhp has an external MAP sensor. Aragorn, i have worked on a few 90Bhp passats and audis and some had KKK turbochargers, dont remember having any Garrett one latelly. VNT 15 was fitted on the 110Bhp and 115Bhp passats(early PD AJM engines) and variations of the VNT 17 to later 130Bhp engines(AWX,AVF) and some later 2.0L Tdi but with a re-designed turbine and electronic actuator.
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  28. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Dec 10, 2009]
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  29. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 11, 2009]
    i'd be inclined to go with what adam is saying, you need a 110hp loom and ECU, and probably some sensors too.

    Take a photo of your existing harness and inside the ECU box and hopefully adam can point out the differences
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  30. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Dec 11, 2009]
    You will need the manifold to go with it as the VNT turbocharger sits lower than the vastegated one + you will need new boost pipes, solenoids, ECU, loom, injectors and various bits and bobs. Its much better to sell your motor and buy the 110Bhp or buy a donor car and swap everything over. I would also make shure chip-and-spin know how to chip the early ECU and if they have the necessary PCL chips that need soldering onto the new ECU. There are not many "old skool" tunners who know how to work on the innards of them old ECU and many tunners just upload a generic map they bought from a vendor and charge you for the privilege of having a "custom" map ! Yeah, right ! If you want cheap 20-30Bhp a good quality tuning box will be suficient but, once you're bitten, you will crave more power ! I would spend a few nights reading trough the tdi enhancement posts on tdiclub as the yankee's done it for years. Also contact Aligator as he's one of the most respected tuners in Europe(hes from Poland so no hidden customs charges) and can sort you with the chips you need. He is even doing an mail service on wich you send him your ECU and hell do the rest. Just make shure you tell him what upgrades you intend to do to your engine first !
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  31. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Dec 11, 2009]
    I see sounds like a nightmare so is there no turbo that would be a direct swap? i mean im more than happy to get it chipped and the wiring loom could i not cut into and put in the new wires needed? would i be better just getting it chipped and new nozzles? and do you have contact details for Aligator? Cheers been a help everyone!
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  32. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Dec 11, 2009]
    p.s ill get some pictures for you guys too!
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  33. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Dec 13, 2009]
    Heres some pics for yous


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    will the ecu from a 110hp facelift fit my car without any rewiring and is it flashable rather than having to have a chip done? and do you need to recode blah blah with audi?
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2009
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  34. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Dec 13, 2009]
    It will phisically fit but, there are a few pins wich are not used on the old ECU and there are a few plugs missing(boost control solenoid is in the wrong place and its boost-90Bhp versus vacuum on the 110Bhp,the Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor is in the wrong place and you will need the exhaust manifold with turbo, inlet manifold, EGR valve is slightly different and a few more bits and bobs) and the "new" ecu will need programming to the instrument cluster and you cannot do that without reading the immobiliser's code and you will need vag-com. The ecu is not able to be flashed trough the diagnostic port and it will need soldering new chips on/or sockets to take new chips wich needs to be flashed with the new map. Just get a decent tuning box not a cheap "resistor-in-a-box" off ebay and see how you like it. Then if you need more, sell the car or buy a written off car with the 110Bhp engine and swap things over. Then you can sell your engine for a few hundred quid if in good running order !
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  35. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Dec 13, 2009]
    okay is the pipe that goes into the ecu on the right on the top picture go to the boost control yeah? would i need an external sensor fitted outside or os that a direct swap? and can the ecu be programmed by myself using the vag com? is there any ecu i can get that can be remapped instead of chipping for this car cause i thought the facelift could?
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  36. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 13, 2009]
    Programming the ECU to the Immo is fine on immo1 without the SKC. I did mine with vagcom alone in about 30 seconds.

    I dont think running 216 nozzles AND a tuning box together will work too well. TDIClub FAQ certainly doesnt seem to think so.
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  37. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Dec 13, 2009]
    ahh so id be able to swap it using the vagcom just fine, is that all its coded to the imobiliser? are any ecu's for the b5 flashable that will work with mine? cheers
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  38. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 13, 2009]
    Some of the later units might be flashable on the TDI, but i know none of the petrol ones are on the b5.

    Your best bet will be to find a 110TDI in the scrappy and get all parts from it in one go.
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  39. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Dec 13, 2009]
    ah right okay im gonna be inclined to think theres probably not then hmmmm, ha all i wanted to is change my turbo! ill have a check in the local scrappys but they never let u in em no more...health and safety blah, unless theres any other mods i can do to get a bit more power?
    #38
  40. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Dec 13, 2009]
    Never said to use 0.216 nozzles with a tunning chip ?! With the bigger nozzles, the ECU does not even know that is injecting more fuel, it will just try and keep the smooth running at idle and trough the working rev range. There is a chap on tdiforum wich is a vendor and he sells adjustable tuning boxes and boost controller for tdi. He's name is campbell performance and hes got a website. He also does a boost controller if you fancy fitting bigger nozzles... You can tinker with the wastegate rod but the ECU will regulate the boost straight away. There is no point in replacing the turbo if you dont put more fuel in: more fuel + more air = more power. To flash trough the obd, you need 2000 on ECU(EDC 15) wich will not support wastegated turbos. They only work with VNT turbochargers + you wont get a good map to control the vastegated turbo. Your best bet is to chip(remap) the engine and fit bigger nozzles. If you do the hammer mod it wont smoke that much on iddle and it will give an easy 20-30 Bhp troughout the rev range. It will be smokey though and it might not pass and MOT though !
    #39
  41. jonnyf
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    jonnyf Member

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    [Apr 19, 2010]
    Well just in case anyone still cares ive finally found some nozzles and there on there way as we speak! .216 nozzles from a bloke on ebay so gonna have a little play with these! apparently i can play around with a few settings using the vag com to do with fuel injection anyone know?
    #40

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