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TDI 170

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by steve184, Sep 2, 2006.

  1. steve184
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    steve184 Active Member

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    Has anyone driven one of these yet who can give a comparison to a TDI 140? I've noticed that Audi/VW group have abandoned PD for this engine now and now use Common Rail technology similar to a lot of other manufacturers like BMW and the like. I was wondering what differences this makes to the engine apart from the extra power of course! I read somewhere that it also has extra balancer shafts in it or something to improve smoothness????

    Im thinking of selling my TDI 140 and getting a new one but im wondering whether to get a new 170 TDI or possibly a 2.0T petrol but worried about the fuel consumption on this now i have got used to 45mpg as a daily norm!!! Think i've been spoilt now!

    cheers
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  2. Vertigo1
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    Vertigo1 Well-Known Member

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    Test drove one a couple of weeks ago.

    I've had a 140 for over 2.5 years now and have been looking for its replacement. After reading about the varying opinions of DSG I made a point of test driving a 140 DSG to decide if I wanted that (I didn't) but I always assumed the 170 would be a no brainer over the 140.

    That was until someone on another forum test drove one and reckoned it "lagged" more than the 140. This claim spurred me on to book a test drive of my own.

    Frankly, I was impressed with the engine. Firstly I don't think it lags any more than the 140. The one I drove was slightly more hesitant than my 140 but tbh I'd put that down to the fact that the engine was tight (only 900 miles) compared to mine (45k), nothing more.

    As for performance, I wasn't expecting the 30 extra bhp and lbft to make much difference but it had noticable more pull in the midrange which I found quiote addictive. Stepping back into my 140, the relative lack of shove was noticable.

    With regards to smoothness or refinement, it's not a quantum leap over the 140. Are you sure the 170 is common-rail rather than PD? I was under the impression that it merely had some new piezo injectors but if you have any more technical info I'd love to read it.

    The engine is a bit smoother than the 140 generally and clatters a little less at idle but it's not a huge leap forward and I still think the top-end common rail units like the Ford TDCi are much more refined.

    Hope this helps. FWIW, I'm ordering the 170 in my next car as I much preferred it to the 140.
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  3. steve184
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    steve184 Active Member

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    Yep technical info is there for all to see - just go to the audi website and check the tech specs out and compare the 140 to the 170 - it is clearly different and clearly identifies the 170 as using common-rail technology - against PD for 140. Apparently common-rail is better than PD and although VW group have stuck with PD for a while now think they have realised that their own technology cannot compete with common rail - so all new engines will use this from now on i think. All the VW 6-cyl diesels use common-rail apparently and have done for a while - only the 4-cyl that currently use PD. The other interesting thing is, that from what I have read on tinternet, common-rail is also simpler and cheaper as it contains less parts (one pump) rather than PD's 4 (one per cyl) yet they still charge an extra £850 for the 170 over the 140.
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  4. steve184
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    steve184 Active Member

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  5. mfspen
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    mfspen Member

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    That's very odd, because I've previously seen the new 170PS engine referred to as PPD (Piezo Pump Duse), which is a bit of a hybrid. That is, it has piezo injectors, but still has the old camshaft driven mechanical pumps. Also, previous reports of VAG moving to common rail have all said 2007.

    Maybe VAG have changed their plans, or maybe Audi UK has cocked up (which wouldn't be the first time !)

    It is a bit suspicious if the 170 still rattles. Listen to a BMW or Honda diesel, for example.
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  6. steve184
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    steve184 Active Member

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    yes - i acknowledge that yes i guess, it could be a mistake on the website - but - it is there in black and white nonetheless! this is why i asked, as I am aware that it is the common rail technology that allows the likes of BMW and honda to produce these quiet refined engines. Think this is because common-rail can inject before, during and after combustion whereas PD cannot - hence i was wondering if the new 170 was any quieter, smoother or more refined than the 140.
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  7. SteveTDCi
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    SteveTDCi Active Member

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    There is a road test of the Golf 170 in this months diesel car. I think the best comprimise would be the 140 with a chip .... but then how good would the 170 with a chip be :)
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  8. roadrunner
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    roadrunner Member

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    Steve, I have driven both but on the technical side I am clueless. As far as the drive is concerned I thought the 170 was very impressive and had no hesitation in placing an order. I found it a lot quieter and smoother than the 140. In fact there was no comparison the 170 sounded silky and refined whereas the 140 sounded rattly and a bit rough. The difference in power, especially mid range was hugely noticeable. To me the 170 is a much better car and would recommend anyone.

    I phoned Audi HQ at MK and asked if it was a common rail engine or when they were coming out but they were like Manuel.... We know nurthing!

    Common rail or not it sure was pokey, smooth and a whole lot of fun to drive.
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  9. Vertigo1
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    Vertigo1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty positive the 170 is still a PD unit, despite what that link says, but I could be wrong.

    As I understand it, VAG's PD technology predates common-rail by some way. When it was first introduced, PD offered huge benefits over more standard diesel units with better power, torque and refinement.

    Since then other manufacturers have pursued the common-rail technology to the point where I think it now outstrips PD in most areas. It is to their credit that VAG have realised this and are now looking to switch to common-rail. They could easily keep on flogging the PD horse well into the future.

    That said, VAG do seem to make some very weird decisions with regards to engines. As a case in point, take the 1.9 diesel unit, why is it still in production? They seem to be using it for the "basic" diesel models such as the 100bhp Golf and A3 whilst keeping the 2.0 for the higher performance models. Why? Surely it would be more cost-effective to stop making the 1.9 altogether and drop a de-tuned version of the 2.0 into these base models?
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  10. mfspen
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    mfspen Member

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    Yes pretty much.

    By using piezo injectors, which are much faster responding than solenoids, they can achieve multiple brief injections, rather than one long burst. This gives a more uniform mixture in the cylinders, hence smoother burning and more power.

    The 'common rail' aspect refers to the use of a single very high pressure electric fuel pump feeding all cylinders, rather than individual camshaft driven mechanical pumps (pump nozzles or 'pump duse'). It is these pumps which cause a lot of the rattling on the PD engines.
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  11. alfiejts
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    alfiejts Member

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    I've just bought my first diesel - an 18 month old 140bhp tdi and am very interested in the comparison with the 170bhp new engine.

    The Audi has replaced a couple of Alfa Romeo 156s.

    My first was a 144bhp 1.8 and it was followed by a 165bhp 2.0.

    I didn't expect the extra 200cc and 20bhp to make that much difference but the extra power (and extra torque that came too) really made a massive difference.
    The 1.8 hadn't quite got enough power and you needed to drop down to third to keep your speed up steep hills over the Pennines.
    The 2.0, for just 20hp more, was in a different league. It would bound up the same hills in fifth gear.

    Whilst my 140TDI has less power than my last Alfa, I thought the extra torque of the diesel would make up for it, but when you're trying to overtake two cars at once on Snake Pass, I've realised that there's no substitute for horse-power and I'll really be looking to swap for a tdi 170 when they come onto the second-hand market in a couple of years....

    IMHO 160-170bhp seems just about right for having enough power whilst still having a reasonably economical car that you can use to pile on the miles every day without worrying about the fuel consumption....
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  12. SteveTDCi
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    SteveTDCi Active Member

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    Why not chip the car ? its cheaper than buying the 170.
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  13. Vertigo1
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    Vertigo1 Well-Known Member

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    What Steve said! :)

    The 140 unit, like the 130 before it has loads of potential and is easily chipped. I believe VW ran a Golf 2.0TDI test car in which the power had been upped to to 200bhp through nothing more than an ECU change (no mechanical changes whatsoever) and had no problems with it at all.
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  14. SteveTDCi
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    SteveTDCi Active Member

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    Mines 182bhp and 405Nm Torque and it has totaly changed the midrange performance. The limit for the 2.0 is around 200bhp, ideally just below. Anything above and you can run into problems with the turbo breaking.
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  15. alfiejts
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    alfiejts Member

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    What do people with chipped cars do about insurance? Do people risk not saying anything - but risk being uninsured in the event of an accident - or are there insurance companies that accept chipped cars for just a small premium?
    (I think the TDI 170 is group 13 compared to the TDI 140 group 11, so I'd have no issue paying the extra - but my worry is that every time you get insurance they ask you to confirm that you've done nothing to improve the performance - and if you have, most of the "ordinary" companies would just refuse to cover you with a chip).
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  16. SteveTDCi
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    SteveTDCi Active Member

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    On the Golf my insurance increased by £20 (Greenlight) the excess stayed the same. With my previous car a Focus diesel I was insured with directline, I cannot remember the actual increase but it was less than £100 but my excess increased from £100 to £250. Its upto you if you declare it but I always have for the sake of a few quid its just not worth the hassel if things go wrong
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  17. steve184
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    steve184 Active Member

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    not bein funny but gone waaaaaay off topic here! I am aware of the chipping and i am aware of insurance, what i wasn't aware of (and was asking about) was differences between the 140 and new 170 TDI. cheers
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  18. SteveTDCi
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    SteveTDCi Active Member

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    I think its just down to the fueling system, the 140 is PD but the 170 is more comman rail, resulting in a smoother power delivery, it will also cut down on the noise the engine makes. I know on another forum people were trying to find out if the turbo was different with a view to fitting it onto the 140 and then increasing the boost and fueling with a custom map. However I haven't driven the 170 yet ... best way to compare it would be the old ford Tddi engine V the newer (and better than VW) TDCi
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  19. jasonmymail
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    jasonmymail Member

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    My TDi 170 is probably less than a month away from delivery, I drove the 140 but not the 170 as none available back in July so not sure what to expect - thanks Vertigo/Roadrunner for the impressions..............

    Anyone got any performance figures other than 0-62MPH for this engine - finding it impossible to get any info and did read somewhere that the diesels aren't that swift at 70-100MPH.
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  20. roadrunner
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    roadrunner Member

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    You're in for a nice surprise. :)

    Haven't seen any figures either but I can tell you it performed really well. At about 80mph the dealer, who was of a nervous disposition, reminded me there was a speed limit of 60mph on our country lanes so I decided to ease off but it felt as though it had lots in reserve.

    Don't want to build up your expectations but don't drive one before yours is delivered and you'll drive home with a BIG smile on your face.
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  21. jasonmymail
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    jasonmymail Member

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    WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW

    Good to hear, it was the one thing I was worried about stepping out of my Golf V5 which has good smooth effortless acceleration in that upper speed range. Was driving it this weekend thinking hope the A3 climbs this well.

    Now I really can't wait. Would still be interesting to compare performance figures, strange that despite this engine appearing in so many VW group cars can't get any data.

    Thanks for the reply.
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  22. Vertigo1
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    Vertigo1 Well-Known Member

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    I agree about the lack of info on the 170 engine, both technical details to resolve some questions about its nature and also road tests of VW and Audi models which have it.

    I've heard about the review in Diesel Car twice now but can't find a copy for love nor money :(
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  23. jasonmymail
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    jasonmymail Member

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    I read that review - although didn't buy it was in WHSmiths. Was pretty good as far as I can remember - neck snappingly fast I think they said - I'll see if I can find it again and re-read.
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  24. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    The last time I visted my dealers, the salesman I normally deal with said they had a 2.0TDI 170 on order to use as a demonstrator. I phoned him this afternoon and he said it had not come in yet, but as soon as it did and was on the road he would ring me and let me try it. Watch this space....
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  25. emzino
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    emzino Active Member

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    Hasn't Peugeot used common rail technology in there diesels for a while...
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  26. Vertigo1
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    Vertigo1 Well-Known Member

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    Peugeot's HDI units were developed with Ford and are virtually identical to Ford's TDCi units.
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  27. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    My dealer has just phoned to say that they have a new TDI 170 arriving and it will be on the road on 30th September. So I have a appointment at 11:00 for a test drive. Not sure of the spec. Hope it's a DSG !
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  28. ren
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    ren Member

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    i've had my 170DSG for two and a half weeks now and it is absolutely fantastic. it makes me cackle almost hysterically everytime i get it onto a nice open stretch ... and i haven't even got close to really putting my foot down yet. you're going to love it.

    now i just have to sort out my bluetooth connectivity issue ...
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  29. jasonmymail
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    jasonmymail Member

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    Dealer's called to say that mine's at the garage... should get it delivered to me next week.

    Finally I'll get behind the wheel of the 170 and find out whether it's been worth all the fuss.

    Come on Ren - stop teasing, tell us a bit more...
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  30. roadrunner
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    roadrunner Member

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    Nah Ren, make him wait. The suspense will do him good:) !
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  31. ren
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    ren Member

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    are you getting the dsg box ... with the paddles??! the box is superb. as i have a 3dr with sport trim, i wonder if the smaller size of car and the slightly lower suspension has any effect on the way it COMPLETELY TAKES OFF BETWEEN 50 AND 100MPH!!!!! :jump:

    (sorry - can't keep this amount of fun to myself - it won't change the fun you have the first time you find a smooth open stretch and put your foot down)
    #31

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