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tCarbon FMIC Kit for 225 Audi TT

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by SwedeS3, Oct 11, 2006.

  1. Corey
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    Corey Seeing the world differently.

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    Sort of negates the crash bar theory if 50% is removed?

    Despite the intercooler having a hidden portion it is still effective, don't think of the intercooler as a radiator (which needs all its surface area in air flow) but think of it as a heat sink.

    It seems straightforward enough. An intercooler acts as an air/air radiator for the intake air, cooling it after the compression of the turbo has caused it to get hot. The compressed air passes through the intercooler, losing its heat to the alloy fins and tubes that form the intercooler core. This heat is immediately dissipated to the outside air that's being forced through it by the forward movement of the car. (We'll get to water/air systems in a moment.)
    The trouble with this analysis is that - for a road car - it is not entirely correct.
    The reason for this build-up is that what follows is likely to be seen as incorrect by many people. For example, someone who measures intake air temps while running a turbo intercooled car for a power pull on a dyno, or who drives it around the block, or who sits back and simply theorises, is almost certain to think that what follows is wrong. But, it isn't.

    In road cars, intercoolers act far more often as heat sinks rather than as radiators. Instead of thinking of an intercooler as being like the engine coolant radiator at the front of the car, it's far better to think of it as being like a heatsink inside a big sound system power amplifier. If an electric fan cools the amplifier heatsink, you're even closer to the mark.

    In a sound system amp, the output power spikes are always much higher than the average power - for example, big output spikes are caused by the beat of a bass drum. Each time there's an output power spike, extra heat is generated by the output transistors and dumped into the heatsink. But because the heatsink has a large thermal mass (it can absorb lots of heat with only a slight temperature rise) the actual working temperature of the transistors doesn't increase much. And because the fan's hard at work blowing air over the heatsink, this inputted heat is then gradually transferred to the atmosphere, stopping the heatsink temp from continuously rising.
    Importantly, because the power spike is just that (a spike, not a continuous high output signal), the heat that's just been dumped into the heatsink is dissipated to the air over a relatively long period. This means that the heatsink does not have to get rid of the heat at the same rate at which it is being absorbed.

    Now, take the case of a turbo road car. Most of the time in a turbo road car there's no boost occurring. In fact, even when you're driving hard - say through the hills on a big fang - by the time you take into account braking times, gear-change times, trailing throttle and so on, the 'on-full-boost' time is still likely to be less than fifty percent. In normal highway or urban driving, the 'on-full-boost' time is likely to be something less than 5 per cent!
    So the intercooler temperature (note: not the intake air temp, but the temp of the intercooler itself) is fairly close to ambient most of the time. You put your boot into it for a typical quick spurt, and the temperature of the air coming out of the turbo compressor rockets from (say) 40 degrees C to 100 degrees C. However, after it's passed through the intercooler, this air temp has dropped to (say) 55 degrees. Where's all the heat gone? Traditionalists would say that it's been transferred to the atmosphere through the intercooler (and some of it will have done just that) but for the most part, it's been put into the heatsink that's the intercooler. The temperature of the alloy fins and tubes and end tanks will have risen a bit, because the heat's been stored in it. Just like in the amplifier heat sink. Then, over the next minute or so of no boost, that heat will be transferred from the intercooler heatsink to both the outside air - and also to the intake air going into the engine.

    (end quote)

    As long as you reduce the intake tract to as short as possible (to minimise pressure drop) you cannot have too big an intercooler.
    #41
  2. Forge
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    Forge Member

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    We found this to be the best place for mounting , when we have another intsall we will look to se if we can improve
    #42
  3. dultanur
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    dultanur all promises, no action :)

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    hmmm...some nice info there!

    so what are intercoolers made of? aluminium?
    if the intercoolers heatsink effect is the most prominent, shouldn't someone try different alloys with better heat transfer characteristics? or has it already been tried, and al found to be the best?
    #43
  4. Corey
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    Corey Seeing the world differently.

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    Cost more than anything else.
    #44
  5. dultanur
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    dultanur all promises, no action :)

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    right. also i think having a relatively thin intercooler with a large surface area would be the best. is that the case? how is the volume and size calculated?

    just curious :D
    #45
  6. Corey
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    Corey Seeing the world differently.

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    Ok a little bit of an update on this.

    We received the intercooler this afternoon, first impression's, I am very impressed with the quality of the kit and measurement wise the size is certainly going to be very effective.
    I am fitting this onto our development mule S3 ;) next week and we will be logging core temperatures of the original setup and then what difference the new one makes.
    The crash bar is not going to be an issue fitment wise as can be seen here
    [​IMG]
    and we will be looking at offering this option with the kit but you will have a choice.
    This is the basic kit
    [​IMG]
    and fitted to a TT (to give you an idea), the bracket's in the production kit will be powder coated, although I have been asked to supply them in stainless which we are looking into.
    [​IMG]
    The silcon hoses can be ordered in a variety of colours, with black being the stock item.
    Price? well if it all goes according to plan next week with fitting on the S3 and I am happy with the performance with it you will be looking at £394 inc VAT but plus p+p
    #46
  7. Adams3
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    Adams3 Member

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    Now thats a good price, i would definitely be interested if it all goes to plan!!
    #47
  8. s3_tny
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    s3_tny Member

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    Corey Your Tha Man Of the Moment :thumbsup: :applaus: :salute: :s3addict:

    P.S Keep Up The Good Work :beerchug:
    #48
  9. Corey
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    Corey Seeing the world differently.

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    Nah, not really but thanks for the compliment.
    It's just now you guys are starting to here about us, we've been doing this for years on the older stuff, as we are spreading our wings and being a bit more mainstream.
    There will be lots of new things coming through, the website's being updated as we speak to account for some of this.
    #49
  10. SwedeS3
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    SwedeS3 Member

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    Nice to know my car is a mule dude. :think:

    it looks good on that tt with the crashbar also fitted, thats going to look sweet on my mule (S3) when you do it next week.

    cheers

    Swede
    #50
  11. Defratos
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    Defratos You’re Dethpicable!!

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    I'm still very unsure whether it'll actually fit well on an S3, and the pics above had been on a TT, would like to see how it looks and fits and a real S3. Good work getting everything together so far mate :beerchug:
    #51
  12. Corey
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    Corey Seeing the world differently.

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    Patience is all that is required, all will be revealed next week.
    #52
  13. Defratos
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    Defratos You’re Dethpicable!!

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    Next week?? Already been waiting a while lol good luck with it mate (I is very impatient)
    #53
  14. Booth_S4
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    Booth_S4 Riding on V8 power

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    Sounds all good to me! Ill defo be signed myself for one of those if all goes to plan and it fits the s3 with no problems!
    #54
  15. Defratos
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    Defratos You’re Dethpicable!!

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    Hey what's happening to this FMIC? Still fitting it on?
    #55
  16. SwedeS3
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    SwedeS3 Member

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    Hi guys,

    Well I have taken time of work next week and the FMIC project will start first thing monday morning.

    Either Corey or myself will take loads of photo's of how things go, and we''ll keep everyone updated.

    Fingers crossed, coz my car is getting ripped apart.

    Cheers

    Swede
    #56
  17. Corey
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    Corey Seeing the world differently.

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    As we are still in the same week as that I posted the above I would say that the above would still be valid.
    #57
  18. Corey
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    Corey Seeing the world differently.

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    you won't have time for photo's teaboy will be all you are capable of.

    Why finger's crossed?
    I have shown you my range of special hammer's?
    #58
  19. SwedeS3
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    SwedeS3 Member

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    Thats what i am scared off Lol :laugh: :laugh:
    #59
  20. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    If you dont want to wait you could always diy it.Its very easy to do and quite cheap.Intercooler same size is £125 off Ebay delivered and the pipes are readily available for a few quid.Thats what i did and saved a few pennies.
    #60
  21. Defratos
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    Defratos You’re Dethpicable!!

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    :iagree: I'm going on the same route, just wondring how this lil baby will fit, don't want to get into the whole issue of crash bar modification
    #61
  22. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    You could always measure the space you have and get the intercooler that fits best.I got mine for £199 paid too much i know but i got the exact size i wanted,bigger ones are cheaper:think:
    [​IMG]
    its not as big as the TT one in this thread but its big enough for my needs.The pipes was done at my local powerflow exhaust place in stainless and i just painted them.It fits the front bumper perfect to get as much airflow to it as i could.
    [​IMG]
    #62
  23. SwedeS3
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    SwedeS3 Member

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    Good pictures man, looks really good :o.k:
    #63
  24. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    Cheers and good luck with yours.
    #64
  25. SwedeS3
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    SwedeS3 Member

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    Looking at your car with all the lights and bumper off, i'm getting a bit nervous. Never good seeing a car naked Lol

    Im not as confident as you guys, so thats why i prefer for somebody else to do it, if i did it i would probably have something left over after its all gone back together.

    ( oh yeah where does this engine thing go again??????)

    :uhm: :whistle2: :uhm:
    #65
  26. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    LOL.Its very easy to pull the lights out and take the bumper off.The main reason i didn't fit anything bigger is the crash bar.I could imagne what the insurance company would say if i had a bump,"your not getting a penny".Gits.
    #66
  27. Defratos
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    Defratos You’re Dethpicable!!

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    Hey there Swede, trust me once you've seen you're car naked once you'd wanna do it yourself (at least that's what happened to me).

    James I like the way you did the pipes, so did you just tell your local power flow what diameter and how you wanted the bends? and they did it? was it cheap from them?
    #67
  28. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    I measured the diameter of the pipe i would need,went to the powerflow place and they made me 4 90 degree bends and 4 45 degree bends(which i didn't use).Cost £50 but i only needed half of them so £25 should do it.I brought half a metre of silicone pipe from ebay and cut it up,think it was about £15 and made 5 or 6 connections.Its real easy to do and quite a cheap mod.
    #68
  29. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    #69
  30. pablo
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    pablo Member

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    brilliant job James looks great!
    #70
  31. Corey
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    Corey Seeing the world differently.

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    One thing to look out for, the silicone hose in your link is only 3 ply this will not be man enough for sustained long term boost control. At the very least you want 4 ply, with 5 being the ideal for very high boost.
    #71
  32. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    Thanks for the info corey.I dont need anything too extreme for my car its a diesel and the silicone isnt very long so im sure it will cope as the steel pipes are virtually end to end inside them.
    #72
  33. Defratos
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    Defratos You’re Dethpicable!!

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    aren't they Samco hoses? aren't all Samco's the same strength?
    #73
  34. Defratos
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    Defratos You’re Dethpicable!!

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    Cheers for that James :beerchug:
    #74
  35. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    They aren't made by samco but they are silicone and they was quite thick.My car doesn't see "sustained long term boost" or " very high boost" so im not worried and im sure they will be alot stronger than standard boost pipes audi fitted.
    #75
  36. Forge
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    Using a quality silicone hose 3 ply will run up to 11 bar
    #76
  37. pablo
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    pablo Member

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    pmsl I thought I smelt BS.
    #77
  38. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    11 bar,i better turn my boost down.Cheers Forge:thumbsup:
    #78
  39. Forge
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  40. Corey
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    Corey Seeing the world differently.

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    Ignoring our other FMIC supplier at the moment, I thought you guys would like a bit of an update to the TCarbon TT225 FMIC fitment on the S3 we are doing today.
    The basic kit we received from TCarbon will not fit the S3, the bracket's are wrong and the hose's foul the fog lights.
    We have manufactured new bracket's to enable the FMIC to fit behind the stock bumper and to enable the crash bar to be used, the crash bar will need to be modified but only a small amount.
    This intercooler is thicker than other's on the market, the inlet and outlet of the intercooler are the same size as the OE pipework, so the hoses will not stepdown causing flow changes as other kit's do.
    We are working through these issues to put together a complete kit for the S3 and have put together a shopping list for the parts to be got tomorrow.
    The kits will come with all parts necessary, we will do the crash bar on an exchange basis and the hoses will be either 4 or 5 ply.

    Going back to the comments above, sorry but there is no BS. The 3 bar can withstand a constant 11Bar, now cycle the pressure going through them in a turbocharged car, it is not a constant pressure, they will flex in and out.
    My kits will come with the highest spec possible for my peace of mind, or I can forget the whole thing, just fit one intercooler to the car I have in front of me and let you purchase what is already available?
    Bringing cost effective products to market usually upsets someone but we are only trying to help.
    #80

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