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T3 OR SCROLL SP56R

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by jamie226bhp, Feb 28, 2010.

  1. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    Ha ha this is a new car (Byzan's old one) so I didn't actually fit the current turbo but yes you're correct I do swap turbos on a regular basis.
    #41
  2. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    Fitting the Garrett (T28 flanged) as featured in my turbo upgrade thread; it should be fittted in just over a weeks time.
    #42
  3. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Mar 5, 2010]

    The confusion is that they cite a part number for a turbine rotor that is used in the larger turbo for RS6. I am almost certain they are simply wrong about the number, but only they can say. In answer to the other post about the sizes you'd expect for the two turbos, take a look at the two turbines compared:

    Left: K04-015 housing (NOTE: it's been machined to accept a 50/42 turbine rotor from K04-022/-025)
    Right: K04-025 housing, also machined for OEM rotor 5304-120-5015


    [​IMG]
    #43
  4. Drizz
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    Drizz Project Plush

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    So which turbo do i buy lol. I had made my mind up now im just not sure again!
    #44
  5. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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  6. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    Ask them for their compressor MAPs. With that information you'll be able to decide.
    #46
  7. jamie226bhp
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    jamie226bhp Member

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    this is what they sent me when i inquired

    Hello,

    We offer two K04 upgrades for the K03-005, both require a core for the re-profile work. All options consist of new components cast/spun in the UK. The turbine manifold will be reprofiled to the K04 50x42mm shaft for both upgrades. We re-use the turbine manifold and wastegate valve from your donor. All turbochargers leaving our facility endure realtime VSR blueprinting to insure longevity.

    K04-SP51X $650
    K04-SP56R $900

    What are the differences?

    SP51X aka Outlaw is based on a 51mm trim compressor wheel. This may not seem like much but utilizing "extended tip technology" our compressor wheel tip actually exceed the 51mm trim reaching 54mm while retaining the 51mm footprint. (54x39.5x5mm)

    SP56R is more involved, first the standard compressor housing inducer inlet is machined off completely. Using a 65mm alluminum billet we then machine a custom inducer inlet to fit the ridiculous 56x44mm (RS6) compressor wheel then fit the two components and reprofile to the new wheel size. This is a unique product and one you will not find elsewhere for the money.

    These are simple estimates based on other clients successes.

    X=230hp 20psi
    R=280hp 25psi
    #47
  8. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    They almost made it all the way through, too. But not quite:

    http://www.turbointernational.com/products/majorCmptDetails.asp?mcid=364&turbotype=271
    #48
  9. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    Slapy, I don't understand that comment sorry Its prob me being dull. You saying they are not using the wheel they have stated so far?
    #49
  10. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    the RS6 wheel is 56x42mm according to the link he posted
    #50
  11. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    Sorry for sounding snarky about this, but they keep mixing up their specifications. I'd like to think it's a simple matter of "lost in translation" -- they're in Poland after all; but part numbers and metric dimensions are not the sorts of things which are prone to this. So, helping these guys out a bit:

    The turbine shaft/rotor they are using is 50/42 and sourced from the K04-022 & K04-025/-026. This is an aggressive wheel with a narrow 6.4 blade tip height.

    Their two compressor configurations are 39/51(54) and 42/56. The former is derived from an OEM 3K Warner design which never saw manufacture. It is the largest "ETT"-style 20xx-series wheel which will fit into an unmodified OEM casting. The latter is an older 8-blade 2275-series wheel used in the Audi TT225/S3/RS6. Because of its large inducer dimension, the OEM housings will not accommodate it without major modification, raising production costs.

    There remains the outside possibility that their SP56 does in fact incorporate a 44mm inducer wheel. Such a design exists. But not for the Audi RS6.
    #51
  12. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    slappy: are you saying the 39/51(54) wheel in the 51X is actually a better part than the 42/56 wheel in the 56R even though its smaller?
    #52
  13. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Mar 6, 2010]

    Well...... I've got my opinions, that's for sure. But it's not fair/appropriate for me to express them here. Why not ask the manufacturer?:sly:
    #53
  14. jamie226bhp
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    jamie226bhp Member

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    everyone is intitled to there opinion, but if what you say is true it would be good to confirm as i could just get the 51x instead of wasting the extra money on the 56R
    #54
  15. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    I know I'm being coy. Which is BS. Gimme a minute and I'll lay out my "opinion" in an authoritative-looking graph. That should help.
    #55
  16. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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  17. jamie226bhp
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    jamie226bhp Member

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    yes the ett seems better by that but what are the price comparisons and other associated mods required

    christ thats at 31psi what are the graphs like at 25psi,
    that will need rodsn pistons won't it
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2010
    #57
  18. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    slappy: interesting!

    Presumably your F4h-l is similar in specs to the 51X?

    I've been trying to compare the compressor maps on your website, but unfortunately the "mouseover" thing to view the maps doesnt really work very well, because of my screen resolution (1280x800). If i scroll down far enough to mouseover the link for the k04-02x, i can only see half of the map!

    Do you happen to do the turbo without the extra parts, or perhaps with just the manifold? Lots of people might already have the silicon TIP and a working DV..
    #58
  19. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Mar 6, 2010]

    :laugh: Don't forget you need to deduct for atmosphere. The chart reflects 18psi of boost, a good level if you're shooting for 200g/s on a 1.8t

    [​IMG]
    #59
  20. jamie226bhp
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    jamie226bhp Member

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    are the 51x and f4h-l both cappable of the same power outputs at the same psi, as isn't the 51x rated at 22 psi
    #60
  21. jamie226bhp
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    jamie226bhp Member

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    i wonder what revs the 51x makes it's power at
    #61
  22. jamie226bhp
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    jamie226bhp Member

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    doesn't the 51X need a 3" maf housing to achieve it's full potential
    #62
  23. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    From what we can tell, marks outlaw was pushing 265hp with 1.1bar, which is around 16psi

    Personally i would get it mapped for 18 or 19psi held, and a slight peak of "overboost" as is normal from the N75 valve, and you'd be looking at around 280hp from that boost level.

    If you run it at 22psi held your revving the nuts out of the core and it will massively dent its life.
    #63
  24. hardhitter
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    hardhitter Member

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    Is the calculation of Volumetric Efficiency 0.85, an accurate one ? Having this figure makes calculating what compressor map is suitable, easier.
    #64
  25. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    It's actually on the conservative side. In the following graph I overlaid airmass logs from a car with boost manually set to 17psi. Look how closely the actuals mirror the "theoreticals". 90VE is a good benchmark.

    [​IMG]
    #65
  26. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    Its interesting that you have less MAF with more boost compared to marks turbo...

    Marks was peaking at 1.2bar and dropping back to 1.0-1.1ish, and flowed a corrected 210g/s...
    #66
  27. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Mar 6, 2010]

    The airflows in that chart were in combination with a 2078-series wheel. Think RS4. That's a wheel we were using during our early prototyping, but have since moved away from. Nevertheless it helped us to identify a good volumetric efficiency figure for continued development.
    #67
  28. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    The 20xx-series ETT wheels are very happy in the 2.2-2.4bar range (18-20psi). Here's a graph of the expected airflows on a hypothetical 20psi-based MAP. It's a bit parabolic to reflect spool and declining boost requests at the upper range.

    [​IMG]
    #68
  29. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    Slappy you mean boost of 1.2/1.4 bar yes? as 2 bar is a nadger under 30 PSI
    #69
  30. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    ah excellent!
    #70
  31. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    Mark: hes talking in "pressure ratio" which is what turbos work in.

    2.2 Bar pressure ratio is 1.2 Bar boost.
    #71
  32. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    Yes. Boost at 1.2-1.4. I factor in atmosphere because VAG-COM reports that way as well.
    #72
  33. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 6, 2010]
    I thought so but I wanted it in black and white, as i bet this thread will get some use with all the contained information
    #73
  34. Drizz
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    Drizz Project Plush

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    [Mar 7, 2010]
    It would if i could understand any of it!
    #74
  35. jamie226bhp
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    jamie226bhp Member

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    [Mar 7, 2010]
    not just me then. so does the franken turbo use the original maf on the AJL or reguire a 3" and how much is the turbo and manifold
    #75
  36. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 7, 2010]
    It looks to me like the FT4 and the Outlaw are mostly the same in max power and efficiency. A 3inch MAF housing and larger injetcors will be required to get the most from either,however both are tune dependent.

    It's a shame Sean doesnt have similar compressor maps and/or comparison graphs to look ate. Has anyone managed to get the part number for the turbine sorted?
    #76
  37. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 7, 2010]
    A turbo doesnt "require" a MAF.

    However the standard MAF goes out of range somewhere around 200g/s, which is around 250hp, so if you want more power, you need a larger MAF for the ECU to actually measure the airflow.
    #77
  38. jamie226bhp
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    jamie226bhp Member

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    [Mar 7, 2010]
    without a maf you'd need standalone management though wouldn't you as our ecu's are designed to run them, or thats what i thought
    #78
  39. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Mar 7, 2010]
    Most tunes over here simply have you pull the sensor from your 2.5" housing and put it in the larger 3" one. The changed caliber of the housing will cause the readings from the sensor to be out of whack, but Aragorn & Mark have posted correction figures for this, and the software tuners simply account for this as well. Good rule of thumb for these turbos is 150-ish g/s on a changed housing.
    #79
  40. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 7, 2010]
    Jamie: your missing my point. Your choice of turbo doesnt dictate the MAF you need. You could fit a GT28RS and run it on a standard MAF, as long as you dont try and get any more than 240-250hp from it.

    Your MAF choice is related to your target power figure.

    So if you buy a frankenturbo and want to get 280hp from it, you will need a bigger maf housing.
    #80

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