1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Surging Issue - Map itself?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by fran-s3, Jun 30, 2008.

  1. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jun 30, 2008]
    #1
  2. Ads

    Ads

    [Sep 21, 2014]

  3. simch
    Offline

    simch Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 4, 2008]
    .......another faulty Bailey DV.........? There was a bad batch kicking about 12 months ago. Check the more detailed reply on your other thread.
    #2
  4. scott_johnson
    Offline

    scott_johnson Audiless

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 4, 2008]
    When i bought my s3 the baileys dv had to be bin'ed in replace for a standard unit as the diaphram had broken and was down on power :(
    #3
  5. simch
    Offline

    simch Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 4, 2008]
    I think Bailey DVs are piston valves, which if they stick play havoc. Stock valve is a diaphram, but the normally bullet proof bailey's have ahs a few problems it appears.
    #4
  6. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 4, 2008]
    Thanks Simch, responded on other thread! Yikes it could make sense, although I did stick a pen up it to pressure test it with my finger over top and it held pressure of till released... But your saying it could stick when it gets hot so this wouldn't of showed that... Bought about 6months ago brand new allegedly of ebay....
    #5
  7. Shy19s
    Offline

    Shy19s Oil running through my veins.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Jul 4, 2008]
    No s3 close to you with a dvalve which is working that you could test it on, only takes a few mins to change it quick, then you'll know for sure, instead of buying a DV from audi and still having the problem if it is the map.

    Might sound stupid but...wouldnt be actuator would it??
    #6
  8. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 6, 2008]
    Ok thanks everyone for your time on this and repsonces so far! Right had an interesting weekend trying to sort this issue, I *think* im closer to finder the problem... Took it back to the remap guys and they spotted the issue, but couldnt find the cause.. They went through the remap figures i.e requested and made boost and they are as they should be before the surge or hesitancy starts. They suspect either coils or MAF. They checked all my breather pipes, checked my filter and intercooler pipes and no splits in it what so ever.. They've offered me a full refund for my remap, but I really want to find the cause of the problem if I can before I do this as i believe it's not the map now.

    Firstly I put my standard N75 valve back in as you guys said and its doing the hesitation again... So as advised I bought a standard DV from Audi thinking it could be a problem with my Baileys one... Unfourtantely it was no different, and the hesitation came back! :ohmy: So least I can rule my DV out of the equation, very frustrating though!!!!!

    HOWEVER my friends came down with VAG-COM and he offered to hook it up and go through the values while I was on a run which was we did... Results were interesting!

    He checked the Air Mass values or g/s value to see what it was making... My maximum I made was around 190 which I think is about right for a chipped car, before the hesitation started???

    Anway here's the interesting bit.. When it started to hesitate he was watching and logging my cylinder missfire log which was group 015 and 016 I believe and it seems that the hesitation I'm getting.. IS ACTUALLY MIS-FIRES!!!! When the surge began cylinder 2, 3, and 4 all started to miss-fire and the figures were quite worrying like 3 - 4 on each for nearly 10secs and it'll struggle to accelerate but then find boost and acceleration again and they'd all clear.. (which is the hesitation I've been talking about) My friend actually said it feels exactly like it's overfuelling and obv the sparks aren't burning the required amount of fuel and hence the missfire... I've logged this on vag-com so if anyone would be kind enough to look at the log, please let me know and I can email them to you for your opinion.

    So obvsiously the question now is what's causing the mis-fires? Can it be the coil packs or another faultly sensor causing it to overfuel like it is?? As far as im aware the coil packs have never been changed since 01, but I had changed the sparks to NGK Laser platinums when I first got the car on the service. At least now I know the hesitation is actually mis-fires and not my turbo acting up which is more of a relief...but still very frustrating!!!! Whats bizzare is they only missfire when they reach optimum boost it'll seem, and on tickover and normal driving there fine. I thought if it was coil packs, they'd be missfiring ALL THE TIME?? At one point all the cylinders has misfired like 4 times each continiously until the hesitation had gone...

    BUT, the most frustrating thing for me is WHY DIDN'T MY CAR LOG THESE IN THE FAULT MEMORY AS A DTC as it should do when it detects mis-fires and flag it up when I check for errors? Whenever I check for faults it keeps saying NOT DTC's found! :wtf:

    So yeah, would really appreciate your comments please from anyone who's had the same issue, before I consider spending over £100 on coil packs! Thanks
    #7
  9. Shy19s
    Offline

    Shy19s Oil running through my veins.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Jul 6, 2008]
    Not sure if this has been mentioned already, but its quite common for the coil packs to die after the remap, i think quite a few of the lads have had to replaced theres and some of them even take a spare set to put in either before/after the map.

    Hope thats all the problem is!

    Shy
    #8
  10. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 7, 2008]
    Thanks Shy! Really, well I thought if it was coil packs it would of died completely and be mis-firing all the time. My goodness I hope it is, just that I really want to be sure this is the problem before I go and throw more money at it that I don't really have... and not find it's not the problem! Suppose like most things it's a case of biting the bullet and seeing...
    #9
  11. Shy19s
    Offline

    Shy19s Oil running through my veins.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Jul 7, 2008]
    S3 owner near you? use there coil packs, to see if it sorts it, then go buy some for yourself?
    #10
  12. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 7, 2008]
    Arr yeah good idea, harder said than done to find someone willing to do that though. Don't know anyone with a S3 to be honest. Audi certainly wouldn't let me do that, just rang them for a quote 25.32 + VAT each!!! More expensive than VAG PARTS!!!
    #11
  13. j4jon
    Offline

    j4jon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2003
    Messages:
    701
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Jul 7, 2008]
    Where are you? Somebody may be willing to lend a hand.
    #12
  14. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 7, 2008]
    Im in Northampton if anyones close? Thanks.
    #13
  15. jimbobery
    Offline

    jimbobery S3

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    257
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Jul 7, 2008]
    I got VAGCOM the other day and had some intermittent mis-fire fault codes logged in my fault memory. I also fitted a new TIP and didn't plug the MAF back in properly so got a MAF fault code in there too.
    So I cleared down the faults to see if they came back, as I didn't know if the mis-fire ones were from ages ago and not actually a current problem.
    Anyways, did some real time logging, just out of interest really, and logged the MAF g/s and the mis-fires (block 015 and 016). I got mis-fires on cylinder 2 and 3, but only for a few seconds.
    But it doesn't feel like I have mis-fires, I have no power loss etc, so same question really, if mis-fires are being logged in 015, why doesn't it get logged in the fault codes, and would I notice a mis-fire problem?
    #14
  16. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 9, 2008]
    Well after a lot of research and speak to different garages and Revo, im 99% sure it's my coilpacks, so I've bitten the bullet and ordered a full set from vagparts.com Will keep you posted guys, will fit them on Sat.
    #15
  17. h100vw
    Offline

    h100vw Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 10, 2008]

    Hi, The channels you logged to see the miss-fires. Sounds like timing pull/ignition retard to me and on a std car you are highly unlikely to ever see the ECU pull out any timing. On a chipped car up to 3 or 4 degrees of pull wouldn't be a worry. Anything over that certainly would be detrimental over the long term.

    I am not the worlds foremost expert on the subject but I know that if the coils are miss-firing, they will throw a code and once they have done that it will come back pretty regularly if you clear it and the coil usually stays bad. That's something else that makes me think you are miss-interpreting the timing pull.

    It sounds like the problem starts when you are producing the most boost and with that in mind I think your sparks may be getting blown out. I'd buy another set of plugs (std ones) and stick them in. If it doesn't fix it, you have a set for the next time you change them. If it does then bonus.

    I have actually seen this fixed by my mate Andy Walker at PSI Tuning on chipped S3 he had in for an identical sounding problem.

    If you think it's overfuelling, you could look at the lambda probes with VAG-COM and see what the exhaust is doing. If it does go rich, it could be a few things though. Injecting too much fuel(wrong MAF output), bad spark, miss fire, less boost than expected would all leave unburnt fuel in the exhaust.

    Good luck working it out.

    Gavin
    #16
  18. S90GAV
    Offline

    S90GAV Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2008
    Messages:
    538
    Likes Received:
    3
    [Jul 10, 2008]
    i had my car remapped a few weeks back, after a week off having the car mapped i had the same problem as you, luckily i had two spare coilpacks so tryed them in cyclinder 1 and 2, prob was still there so tried them in 3 and 4 and it sorted it.
    #17
  19. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 10, 2008]
    Awesome thanks Gav, yeah im pretty confident its going to sort it. Got a full set waiting to be fitted 2moz evening! Can't wait to see what it feels like on full sing, just hope the misfireing hasn't knackered my new sparks! (Although I haven't pushed it a lot because of the problem.)
    #18
  20. S90GAV
    Offline

    S90GAV Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2008
    Messages:
    538
    Likes Received:
    3
    [Jul 10, 2008]
    yer hope it sorts it too bud, mine was fine on normal driving but as soon as you toed it got the miss fire issue.
    #19
  21. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 13, 2008]
    Well I changed the coil packs, and annoyingly it still does it!!! Not a happy bunny, so the map is coming off now... going for a custom map when I get my refund.

    Interestingly I looked for breaks in the wires on connectors for coil packs and they were non. Although on some the actual wiring unsulation had come off, so it was bare wire not touching on anything though.. Obv wrapped them all up with electrical tape while I was there to protect them. Checked the earth and that was fine, no rust on it. So frustating!
    #20
  22. h100vw
    Offline

    h100vw Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 13, 2008]
    I don't reckon the map is the problem. You just don't see it with the std software. I would expect it to come back when you have a custom map done. Try closing the gap on the plugs a couple of thou. Won't cost anything.

    Gavin
    #21
  23. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,604
    Likes Received:
    276
    [Jul 13, 2008]
    What gaps are the plugs set at?
    How old are they?
    #22
  24. h100vw
    Offline

    h100vw Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 13, 2008]
    Found on the fourtitude forum


    Spark Plugs


    OE Plugs: NGK PFR6Q - .032" gap
    For Stock Cars - .032" gap:
    * NGK BKR6E
    * Autolite 3923
    * Denso Iridium IK20
    For Chiped Cars - .028" gap:
    * NGK BKR7E
    * Autolite 3922
    * Denso Iridium IK22


    **Avoid all non copper plugs, reommend to change every or every other oil change to keep from misfiring.
    General Rule of thumb: For every additional 50HP over stock, a general rule is 1 heat range colder and gap shrinks by .004
    --So, a chipped 1.8T would make good use of a plug one range colder gapped to .028
    >Tightening torque 30Nm (22 ft-lb)
    >Tightening torque for Coil Packs 7ft lbs
    #23
  25. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,604
    Likes Received:
    276
    [Jul 13, 2008]
    Thats why i asked? Its common on the A4s for them to be fine until the car is chipped etc.
    #24
  26. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 13, 2008]
    Thanks guys, well I seem to have tried everything and when I switch it back to standard (have the revo switch) it runs perfectly standard. My plugs are: NGK Laser Platinums PFR6Q - .032" gap changed when I first bought the car 6months ago.... No one else seems to experience this problem which is so frustrating, did anyone else have to change there plugs once chipped? Been advised it could be my MAF but it makes 190 g/s which suggest its perfect.
    #25
  27. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,604
    Likes Received:
    276
    [Jul 13, 2008]
    When i had mine chipped i had a flat spot so i was advised to re gap the plugs which i did and it went away. I have the Plats fitted too, but will probably swap to the copper when i next service it
    #26
  28. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 14, 2008]
    Thanks Byzan, hmm interesting did anyone else here have to re-gap there sparks at all when chipped?
    #27
  29. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 14, 2008]
    Thanks for that post H100vw

    Apparently the NGK BKR7E are gapped at "0.8" according to a supplier I've emailed and theres no size for "0.32" or "0.28" in the whole range?! Has someone got there numbers wrong here?
    #28
  30. Broken Byzan
    Offline

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    12,604
    Likes Received:
    276
    [Jul 14, 2008]
    the NGKs are gapped @ 0.8mm and you need to set them at 0.28" inch. Just regap yours, i doubt you will get a plug off the shelf thats gapped right. The only other way is to get some OE 3 pronged ones, they do not need gaping
    #29
  31. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Jul 15, 2008]
    Ok thanks Gav, so that means I regap them to 0.7mm I think. Anythings worth a shot. Out of interest when you say OE 3 pronged ones your not meaning the standard OEM Audi ones are you?
    #30
  32. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Aug 28, 2008]
    Right, just had a call from APS who have finally sorted my car out for me. (What a top bunch of guys there, superb service and extremely knowledgable.) Turns out it was my fuel pump, car was running lean and missfiring under load as it was obv requesting more fuel! RESULT!!!!!!!!!!!

    No wonder my fuel ecomony has been so poor to!

    Can't wait to go pick her up Sat and experience what 250bhp feels like! :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
    #31
  33. S3 Rav
    Offline

    S3 Rav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,824
    Likes Received:
    26
    [Aug 28, 2008]
    wicked, well done mate. nothing like wanting to get back into your car with everything in working order.
    #32
  34. 1animal1
    Offline

    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2007
    Messages:
    9,981
    Likes Received:
    31
    [Aug 28, 2008]
    it seems fuel pumps pop up quite a bit here.......
    #33
  35. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Aug 28, 2008]
    Yeah, and annoyingly it shows the same symptoms of coils, sparks, maf which I tried which hasn't been cheap! Just glad I got to the bottom of it, just shows there's no substitute for proffesional help sometimes.
    #34
  36. 1animal1
    Offline

    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2007
    Messages:
    9,981
    Likes Received:
    31
    [Aug 28, 2008]
    what did the pump end up costing....... might do this myself if its cheap enough...kind of trial and error jobby
    #35
  37. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Aug 28, 2008]
    You having problems with yours? Not sure yet mate, get the bill on Sat when I pick her up... Seen them for around £60 on ebay...

    Yeah annoyingly the ecu doesn't flag this us an error when it does this! you can measure the pressure using some sort of tool I believe. May be worth having a chat to APS about it, speak to Ed.
    #36
  38. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Aug 28, 2008]
    One thing that will help point to it if it's running lean which I was cars tend to run hotter then usual. To see what yours it access the ecu climate control trick thing which tells you on your climate your exact water temp... Hold down re-circ button and up arrow in car.. Youll see 001 I think, use temp + till you get to 049 then press recirc button again to access it. In here mine was reading between 98 and 99 when warmed up!
    #37
  39. 1animal1
    Offline

    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2007
    Messages:
    9,981
    Likes Received:
    31
    [Aug 28, 2008]
    cheers Fran..... not sure what mine was reading the last time i did that.... will check on way home...there is a thread with all the definitions of the readouts if your interested mate
    #38
  40. fran-s3
    Offline

    fran-s3 Active Member VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Aug 28, 2008]
    really? yeah please post it.... although mines been sorted but worth knowing!
    #39
  41. Jimmeh
    Offline

    Jimmeh Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,438
    Likes Received:
    15
    [Aug 28, 2008]
    Okay, well.. here is my reading from the temp gauge thing...

    [​IMG]

    Blimey, a bit hot, right? Car seemed fine when running (moving..) but when parked, it started to creep up into the 90's and died on 100'C.

    Can this 100% be put down to the Fuel Pump?!
    #40

Share This Page