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Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by superkarl, Feb 18, 2011.
Use high melting point grease then pmsl
Another thing to note is the camshaft sensor trigger wheel is also different. The S3 has multiple windows, think it has 3 and the AEB has only 1 window. I found this out the long way - car wont start as the ecu cant tell where the cam timing is.
Is there also a raised lug on the cambelt side of the head? Where the tensioner bolts to? I'm sure I've read that the lug needs machining off if it has one.
yeh i wont make that mistake, transferred that over.
i was aware of this, but mine doesnt have it.
i believe its supposed to be where the pulley bolts to the head?
Thats opposite ends of the head
I didn't need to mod anything on my AEB head and it was brand new. I know you need to grind a bit of the VVT tensioner if you using CAT Cams with the bolt on sprockets.
Oops, my bad
What he said... also... have noticed that there are differences in the valves too... the grooves seem to be set at a different position... can't remember the specifics off hand but you can't mix and match the valve train easily... I would at least check...
On inline (058 block) engines the cam pulley is different... its set further back... you will need to use the one from your AMK...
On K04 turbo'd engines there are also extra shims under the valve springs... can't remember off hand if its just the exhausts or if the inlets get them too (been a while since I stripped a 210/225 head) and can't remember the reason for them being there (I think it was to 'stiffen' the springs the counter the increased back pressure on K04 turbo'd engines to stop them being forced open at high RPM) but either way I would be tempted to strip the AEB head and use the valve train/cams/followers etc from your AMK head...
Yep, this was me... my first AEB head had this as it was from an early A4... later revisions of the belt tensioner (from the old 16v tensioner to a specific 20v one) meant this 'lump' was no longer needed... I had mine machined off...
Thats interesting, il be sure to update when they're both apart.
Karl, are you using stock valve train?
FYI - supertech valve train also uses a titantium valve seat. They used to prevent the smaller exhaust valve spring from damaging the head at high rpm. Not sure if its the same thing as the shim that Tuffy has mentioned. Never opened my K04 engine.
I am yeh, i dont plan on touching the valvetrain with the turbine housing im using, i shouldnt need to.
Not until i get a larger housing and go external gate, one day...
Supertech exhaust valve spring set come with a seat due to running dual springs... its used to locate them to prevent them binding together... the inlets seat straight in the head
stripped one head, heres the shim tuffty speaks of:
its so thin I can only imagine its for stopping the springs wearing into the head.
poly filled engine mounts:
What poly grade did you go for on the mounts?
Are they new mounts them Karlos....?
The poly is 85 shore.
And theyre just my original moumts cleaned up with a lick of paint.
Same as my mounts karl, you going to hate it for the 1st 3 months lol but then it gets better, also noticed with mine at the normal idle rpm the seat felt like a vibrator but lifted the rpm by 150 and it went away
lmoa that chick looks like that thing from lord of the rings!
How's the build going?
starting to look like an engine:
Looking good Karlos.
Do you pre-oil the turbo, cams, oil pipes, filter or cooler before you crank it or put in what you think is the correct amount of oil then turn it over and hope for the best?
all of those things, and still hope for the best
when i did mine i unplugged coils, crank for a second like 5 times, then crank for 3 seconds 3 times, then connected coils, start it and as it starts up i switched off like 3 times. then started it final time waited till it got to normal temp and fans came on then switched off and let it cool down and look for leaks.
I did similar steps but also had an oil pressure gauge connected so I could see I had oil pressure while cranking the engine.
Unplug the injectors not the coil packs... won't flood the engine then when you finally come to start it properly...
I normally just turn the engine over a few times with the injectors unplugged and all is good... the build lube will take care of the bearings and all the oil poured over the valve train will keep the top end happy... just need to turn over a few times as the oil pump will be empty especially if new...
never thought of unplugging inj, thanks tuffty now i know for next time to
do you, or bill, usually fill the turbo a little bit with oil like with a syringe or something? is that a good idea? im thinking of keeping the chra injected with oil until i come to put the thing on, keep everything nice in there and can turn it by hand, afterall its been sat in a box for months.
Ive read so many horror stories of oil starvation on brand new turbos, and all sorts of debates on restrictor sizing. Just the other day a fella on vortex had a reply back from garrett basically telling him its fooked and not covered, $*** please.
I have squirted oil into the CHRA before but the act of turning it over a few times should be more than enough to circulate oil.... starting a freshly built engine without cranking it over several times first to circulate oil is a recipe for disaster... make sure to pour oil over the cams etc before nailing the cover on once the engine is in... build lube is good but extra oil is better...
...and don't forget to fit the two plastic cam covers... this stops oil from being thrown into the PCV breather (like the windage tray in the sump)
I forget those things every time and only realize once everything is back on
I unplug the injectors and remove the spark plugs while priming the oil system. My logic is there will be no compression when cranking the engine, so it should be easier for the starer motor while it swings the engine over and pumps oil round the engine.
So with my turbo clocked how i need it pretty much, i had to fiddle with the actuator position and make sure it wasnt too angled and would operate ok.
So ive got a mityvac and was playing around making sure its set how it should be, which should be 1bar, so 15psi there abouts.
So i did this little test, and hopefully the more experienced folk can tell me if im ok or im short on travel (which i think i might be).
First, without the actuator arm connected to the wastegate valve, i marked the fully closed position with red marker, when looking side on at the base of the mount. I then pumped it up slowly to see how it behaves. Bear in mind this is disconnected from the wastegate, no preload. It opens at 10psi, this is when it starts to move.
Anyway i took it to maximum opening and then marked it again, so as you can see we show the closed, max opening, and the range of travel in between:
Now with the wastegate closed, and my marks on the arm, i went to attach the arm, which is fully extended to its max length:
So pumped it up and attached the arm, and im guessing this is what gives the wastegate its preload. Notice how the wastegate is somewhat through its travel, the red mark being closed:
So im thinking hmmm, this is going to take some pressure to begin opening this if its already approx half way through its travel.
15PSI is where it STARTS to budge (crack pressure?), and this is how 'open' the wastegate is at 15psi, with some assistance from my thumb:
at 25psi its pretty much at max travel, tiny bit left in it.
Now, initially i was worried with the amount this was opening at the rated pressure its suppposed to be (1bar/15psi), instantly assuming i dont have enough travel. But thinking about it im guessing with X amount exhaust pressure behind it this is all thats needed, just the pressure to crack the thing open, exhaust driving the thing open some more when needed with the N75 doing its thing.
let me know what you think.
If this is the preload then it 'looks' alot... normally its around 3 turns from closed and the arm taking up the slack
What is the actuator rated at? extra preload will increase the crack pressure at the expense of opening... I had boost creep on my hotside when I changed to the 60mm turbine nut your wastegate looks fairly large so should be ok
if you have a psi actuator then really it should be fully open at 15psi!
you are right that exhaust gas will part some pressure on the wastegate etc and aid opening but it should be relied on!
i think you need to setup like this.
extend the actuator arm fully and attach it to the wastegate which closed. then tighten the outer nut until you impart a small amount of tension on the actuator to keep the wastegate closed.
Now you can assume at this point you will have max travel. Now the only way to find out what psi you will crack at is to run n75 unplugged and see what boost you settle at, hopefully 13-15psi. Any less then add a turn until your happy.
Unfortunately until you run upto max desired boost you won't know for 100% if you have enough actuator travel or whether creep will occur.
Is that wastegate arm really short or is that normal for that turbo?
That is the max the arm will go to, i could prob get 180 degrees more on it, but it would be hanging onto one thread.
The actuator was sold to me as a 1bar actuator from pagparts.
I have moved the actuator to its new position after clocking of the comp housing, but i fail to see how it was ever shipped out at 'fully open at 15psi' there simply isnt enough arm to do that.
without the wastegate arm attached it cracks open at 10psi as stated, so the 15psi that its sold at must be with a bit of preload, but obv shouldnt sacrifice this much travel.
Ive ported the wastegate to as much as i can, and the wastegate opening from the turbine inlet is good, but obv i dont want to see massive overboost due to such little travel.
What i will do tomoro is probably try and space the wastegate bracket off the back of the comp housing a mm or two, this may give me enough to be acceptable. Although if dan is saying it should be fully open at 15, im going to need a longer arm to achieve the ideal setup.
Thanks for the input anyway, you are the two i was hoping would comment.
Is the end that connects to the wastegate arm, fixed or does it unscrew? Was thinking you could find a longer piece of tube with the same threads to extend the length if you can't unscrew it far enough
I have plenty of those tubes, which I'm sure are longer than the ones in the picture. If I remember I put one in the post.
also testing the opening pressure with it not attached to the turbo and not running on the car, doesn't really prove much tbh.
So much playing around with it and its deffo too short, im not happy with how open the wastegate is at 15psi.
I reckon I need one about 10mm longer to comfortably set this up.
I know as dan says it doesn't prove much doing this off the car without testing it on the road. But as it is I have zero adjustability and quite clearly too much preload.
Would anyone agree that I need this sort of result:
at my wastegate pressure of 1bar?
as opposed to this:
small update, but hardly any pics to show what ive done.
Basically started to make my turbo lines, did coolant feed, coolant return, oil return, but until i have the gearbox and transfer box on the oil return isnt 100% done, only the turbo end for now.
As for the feed, im leaving that to the pros, last thing i want is to crimp up the inside of my oil feed effectively making it smaller.
Also got a longer actuator arm on the way which should have that problem solved, il them upload some pics/videos to show my crack pressure and travel, just want it to be right first time really.
Also continued work on porting the AEB head:
Its by no means Andrew standard stuff, just a gasket match (as is the inlet mani), and smoothing of the casting marks as far as i can go.
I dont think im going to bother going all out on it, the inlets already flow so great on these heads so theres not a great deal of benefits for me. And as for the exhaust side, its tight in there, and im not 100% confident in working behind the valve seats (where the gains really are), plus the time it takes to do this, im at the stage i want to throw the damned thing together.
finished all my porting jobs, and general cleaning of the head:
and the inlet mani is also gasket matched:
my turbo lines:
Next the head needs exhaust valve guides, so that will be sent away asap.
All that's left is little pissy things, like some welding, im extending the turbo outlet so its away from heat, and also meets the oem charge pipe nicely, -10AN boss on the sump for oil return. I also need to drill and tap the exhaust mani for M10 studs as a precautionary measure.
And once the head is back will obv have to lap the valves in and time it all up, otherwise, I think that's all that's left.
Nice work bud.
Its there a DP available "off the shelf" or do you need to get one made up?