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Stressed, Please Help!!

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by _JMills, Feb 7, 2012.

  1. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Hey guys been a lurker on here for a while and now I have got a problem which I don't understand I'll explain I really hope someone has the answer and can help or has VAG-COM or something I live near Basildon, Essex for those who want to know.

    Basically yesterday I had charged the battery over night and went to start it in the mourning was a bit of a pain as it always started after about 3-4 seconds as I had the car sitting on my driveway while I saved for insurance and other things, but yesterday it was really difficult to start and eventually I managed to get it to tick over while holding the starter motor I released the key and revved it and few times misfired a bit and held it around 4000rpm for 5 seconds let it drop down and it idled as usually thought it was a tad strange but it was idling let if for 5 mins and gave it a quick couple of blips still idling spot on I assumed the cold weather had been a tad rough on it, so anyway left it idling for 20-30mins while on the phone to the insurers spending near enough all my money got that sorted and then went out to the car it was upto temperature on the water and oil was at the first stop as it's alway been as I haven't driven it since I bought it in october, so thought nice I'll turn the car off pop up the road get the tax, I returned, and put the tax in the window and went inside ready to drive it to see my other half later at work for lunch.

    Went out to the car all happy thinking this is going to be so nice to drive hoped in and turned the key nothing just turned over and over, for no reason wouldn't even try to fire into life after about 6-10 seconds on a prolonged try the low oil pressure light blinks three times I checked and found that if the engine hasn't fired into life it see's the pressure as being low obviously, I then later that night after a very upset other half, we live further than walking distance apart, I then found the fuel pump when turning the engine over doesn't buzz I assume like most cars it should prime but it doesn't I looked up this fuel pump relay and put 12 volts to it well hey it buzzing so the pump works, I then continued to start it but nothing fuel is getting to the fuel rail but sounds like its getting returned to the pump, but when turning the car over the pump stops? So since then it just turns over, I took the ecu out and put in the house to warm up thought it might reset something if out put it in this mourning nope still turns over, but wierd thing is after the first time I put it in the rev guage was going mental the car was off but it was revving too 3000 rpm on the accessory funtion wierd no warning car said it was ok turned it off and put it back in nope still not firing, I then found the little stalk on the left hand side of the dash pressed it and there's an X over a little usb icon it looks like, I can't remember what the other symbols are right now as I'm in work.

    Can this be an immobiliser issue?

    What's happened?

    Currently really stress out and just want a answer for my next step, I can't understand how it can start up and work for all those months then cold weather rolls in and it refuses, I'm very stress out to the point where I'm sick and really shouldn't be in work to be honest, my other half is really unhappy and doesn't like to be away, I'm gutted as I've paid £1730 insurance £118.25 tax totally out of pocket until the 15th when I get paid which won't be a lot I just want someone to come down like god and help I know I'm not going to get much help but it's worth a try, I know a lot of you are extremely knowledgeable and it's probably something so stupid but I'm having to get my mum to drop me to work and my uncle to pick me up my other half live in Southend so it's a expensive train journey.......


    I need a car to get to work and other commitments :( Sorry for the life story but I really need some help and guidence
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  2. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    If the fuel pump isnt running with the engine cranking, the ECU doesnt know the engines cranking.

    That suggests a faulty crank sensor.

    The crazy rev counter might also tie in here, as the crank sensor signal to the ECU is what drives the rev counter.

    Alternatively it could be a fault with the ECU itself.

    If it was the immobiliser there would be a flashing yellow light on the dash with a picture of a car with a key underneath.
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  3. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Thanks for the reply aragon, hmm It could be, I don't get a flashing yellow light like you say the screen and dash stay blank bar the battery symbol and the handbrake symbol.

    How could I check the crank sensor, I assume the cold whether has messed it up, where is it located? Guessing under the car near the radiator. How could the ECU just suddenly play up as the car it's honestly been fine and started every weekend up until this cold front hit.
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  4. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    The yellow light should come on initially, then go out if the IMMO gets disabled.

    I've no idea what engine you have, so i cant say exactly where the crank sensor is, but its probably on the passenger side of the engine block, near the back of the engine.

    Obviously randomly changing parts without a proper diagnosis is never a great idea, so i'd suggest a vagcom scan first. The other thing it could be is a faulty fuel pump relay, as this also supplies power to lots of engine circuits.

    Continually starting the car and not actually driving it really isnt good for it, so stop doing that. The engine wont care if it sits without turning for 6 months so long as its in good order.
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  5. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Audi B5 1997 A4 1.8t AEB

    Only issue with VAG-COM is who or where can I get it done as I'm going to need someone to come out.

    is it worth cleaning the sensor out with some wd40 or drying it out the second of which seems the best idea, ideally need VAG-COM tonight or tomorrow as I've taken the day off to sort it but have no idea who has a copy, also is there a way of testing the circuit for resistance or if any power is making it through I assume any water on it may be messing with the signal to the ECU? How much are they to replace and is it a straight forward job should I need to?

    Going on the relay where would it be located, how much are they to replace and how could I properly test it I mean when sending 12 volts through it, the pump buzzes into life nice and strong, but while trying to start the car the volts drop to about 10 and I tried jump starting it the volts held at 12 would I need a little more, to power the pump and the other circuits, just strange that the pump sounds like it turns off when cranking the car over.

    Sorry if I'm sounding like a pain but just trying to get answers, whilst hoping nothing overly serious happen, as I'm pretty gutted at the moment, typical it all goes t*ts up after paying out a load of money :(
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  6. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    One extra thing I may add, when cranking the engine should the rpm needle move or stay still under the engine actually fires into life?
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  7. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    The sensor isnt really something you can clean. It sits in the side of the engine block, and reads the teeth on a wheel mounted to the crankshaft.

    This is a photo of the passenger side of the engine block:

    http://www.canadubs.com/images/IMG_5621-sm.jpg

    The crank sensor is the black thing with the splodge of green paint on it, thats in the bottom right of the photo.

    Fuel pump relay is in the central electrics panel under the dash, you need to remove the drivers knee trim to get at it.

    10volts while cranking is about normal

    Does the pump run when you first flick the ignition on? It should whirr for 2 or 3 seconds then shutoff, then start up again when you start cranking the motor. If it does run when you first turn the key the relay is probably fine.
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  8. Alais DJA
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    Alais DJA Member

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    Needle should jump to 1200 - 1300 depending on your setup.

    Do you have Breakdown cover to your home address? if so give them a call and explain your car "had to have a computer to check it" the tell 'em it needs a VAG-COM.
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  9. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    I think the RPM needle normally just sits at the bottom until the engine fires, but i cant be sure.
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  10. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    So not really anything I can do to check it really?


    Aha, right well when turning the key to the second position after unlocking the steering lock you would normally here the whirr as you said priming the system and it simply isn't doing it at all which I thought was odd but every car I've had did it and was unsure the only way I've check the pump is running and isn't dead is 12 volts through the fuse to it, so is the relay probably dead as the second you start to crank the pump stops whirring and come straight back on after you release the key from cranking it, would you say that could be it or am I getting a head of myself, tbh the second I can get it working I'm going to hunt a person with VAG-COM down and check the whole car over.

    Really appreciate your time to help by the way :)
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  11. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Alais DJA: I took out my insurance yesterday so haven't had a spare minute from trying to sort the car to set up breakdown cover yet although I may ring my insurers and get them to amend my policy I think, hmm can't say I've noticed usually revved to 1200rpm after the first firing sequence but never really noticed it move until it fired :/
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  12. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    Hmm. Where have you sourced the 12v feed from? I suspect it stops while cranking as you've taken it from an accessory feed, and the ignition switch cuts power to the accessory circuit while cranking.

    It does sound a bit like the fuel relay in that case, as even if the crank sensor was dead, it should still prime the pump.

    Could also be the ECU though i guess.
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  13. Alais DJA
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    Alais DJA Member

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    Mobile mechanics?
    #13
  14. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    I'm not to sure at the moment as I can't double check, but looked at a left hand drive a4 diagram and It may hand been a spare for the rear wiper I think possibly, it won't prime any fuel but does make a clicking noise under the bonnet on the passenger side no idea where from does this relate to anything, I don't even know if I'm getting a spark either as the fuel can't get in from what you've said in regards to it should be priming then the relay may have died, is this a common fault I take it?

    But all that happens when sending the volts to it is, it will buzz for as long as you hold it there and under the bonnet and whoozing noise from the fuel rail I take it the rail it pressurized and spare fuel is being sent back to the tank?

    Could the crank sensor and pump relay be link in the way as such no rotating detected (in the event it is faulty) and not switching the pump on, but then countering it by the fact it is not priming hmmph

    I do hope it's not an ECU issue as I can't see why it would die after being switched off only a hour or so after being running fine!!
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  15. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    May try that next, ideally need a VAG specialist but of course money is an issue, and I'm quite competant myself to do any work to her without forking out and being told they have no idea and wasting money :S
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  16. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    Yeh the wipers are on the accessory side, so will turn off when cranking.

    I'd try another relay first off.
    #16
  17. caistor_bmx
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    caistor_bmx Sam

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    You tired another battery? Freezing weather often makes a decent battery a dud overnight. Happened to me twice on my MK2 golf
    #17
  18. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    I'll try when I get in, any idea how to correctly go about doing this, is it just a case of swapping a relay to another one on the car or not good to mix and match?
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  19. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Yeah bought a brand new battery last night to see if it worked this was before we realized the fuel pump didn't prime :( but tbh with it running flat and charging it up again it was probably dying anyway plus compared to the new one it was like half the size :S
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  20. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    Its a specific relay, you need the right one.

    It should be numbered "372" or maybe "208" if its old.

    You can replace it with either a 372 or a 208.
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  21. caistor_bmx
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    caistor_bmx Sam

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    Yer you cant use any realy, they are in theory very very simple circuit boards (so simple that all they do is turn on or off another circuit).
    #21
  22. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Right well, looks like I'll give that a go when I get home hopefully all should be well (I really do hope)

    Thanks for all the advice, just wondering now if anyone has had these symptoms before?
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  23. NineNails
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    NineNails Proud sponsor of the snack food industry

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    Hmm, this all sounds vaguely similar to a nightmare I had with mine last year. Has the ecu been chipped do you know? Turns out mine had been (I wasn't aware) and it was dry solder joints causing the problem. Think a new fuel pump relay is about £12
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  24. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Ok, annoyed and happy in a way

    got it scanned fault code 01176 key not found

    and upon first reading engine start blocked by immobiliser although after we cleared the code and tried to start only key not found showed up for now.....

    Got told to replace the immobiliser reader ring and then code the new key to the car, so I'd have one key for the door locks and boot, and one for the ignition annoying but I can live with that, so ordered the part off a 98 model, and it arrived looked up how to remove them, paper clip in the hole while turned to the on position push it in then pull the unit off.......

    Will it come off NO!! I watched a video on how to remove it and it took all of about 7 seconds to remove it, I took nearly an hour and a half and it did not budge, I tried a small allen key and still did not budge!!!

    Quite annoyed that it is the only fault that showed and looks straight forward but it is far from it, so I'm going to see if my uncle can try a garage later today while I'm at work and see if they have a magic tool as £100 from Mr "Vorsprung Durch Technik" is rediculous![h=3][/h] (For those who want to know this is the whole unit and it's the little black ring on the right http://www.bradgatemotors.co.uk/spares/media/gbu0/prodsm/u_a4_ignlock_fj61639.jpg.jpg)

    Or replace the whole unit as a whole which involves jigsaw piecing the steering column levers off and on, an then i'll still need a new key chip to match the car!!

    I know Audi do this to stop people stealing the car but I would've thought an hour and a half I would've made some progress (Moving it about half a MM in the recess of the unit isn't really what I'm aiming for), in the end I stopped one because I was on the verge of seeing the usefulness of a good ol' BFH but I thought even IF I can remove this which I doubt I could I still need to fiddle around with removing the silly thing off of my car.

    Any idea's on this one or just swap the units over?

    I'm sure the solution really is simple so please enlighten me on the matter anyone, much appreciated :)

    James
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  25. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    Why not just swap the reader coil from the replacement barrel onto your existing barrel?

    That way you dont need to reprogram the key or end up with two different blades?
    #25
  26. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    How can you remove it? I can't see how I can without breaking it as its on there really tight.
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  27. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    No idea :p

    Maybe worth practising on the busted one first?
    #27
  28. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Maybe I'll see if I can, probably just going to replace the whole unit as a whole, bit fiddly but more straight forward any I don't mind having two keys anyway I'll just see if I can program the new key to work with the central locking as I can get my hands on a fresh transmitter that isn't locked......grrr can't believe this has happened it's my first Audi and I'm not really impressed right now :(
    #28
  29. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Ok, quick update,

    Went into the garage Saturday after it not starting and was told they attempted to start the car initially after being unloaded off of the recovery truck and it didn't start just cranked over, they later that day plugged there diagnostic computer into the car went to turn the key and it started and took it around the block, no boost issues or other problems, drove smoothly (I wouldn't know I haven't even driven it :() came back parked it up went to turn it back on refused to start.

    Really confused by today's news, but basically I supplied a new reader coil assembly with barrel steering lock etc with a key, as it was found to be the culprit with things like this and should've been a case of recoding the key properly and swapping the blade to use the ignition and central locking system, thought simple really I'll leave them too it. Just got off the phone today to be told "Is the key that locks and unlocks the car the original key" I replied "As far as I know yeah" garage then went onto too tell me and you've been managing to start the car while SORN as you say every now and again, I again replied yes it went flat a few times I just recharged the battery started it and left it running till at full temp and let it idle......now the concerning bit, he doesn't know how I've gotten away with it as when he opened up the key, the immobiliser chip isn't there as far as he can see it's missing :/

    He's going to look into it for me but now begs the question "How have I managed to start my car with no chip in the key?"
    #29
  30. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Ok,

    Now wondering if someone can help.

    Got in touch with the old owner who came round to see the car, opened up the ecu and used some special electrical cleaning liquid, no the car has gone from not starting at all to starting for two seconds and cutting out but now I can actually here the fuel pump priming upon turning the key!!

    So now I suspect I need a new key coded to the car or immobiliser disabled or something along those lines does anyone know how to go about this or who can help?

    Appreciate any info given, but I really don't want to get shot of the car but at least its given me some hope for it?
    #30
  31. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    Your latter symptoms do sound like the immobiliser. Are you still getting the Key not Found code?


    If not, You need Vagtacho, which you can buy from ebay to code your new key in.

    Alternatively you'll have to call out an Autolocksmith who has the correct kit to code a new key, or send the ECU off to have the IMMO removed.
    #31
  32. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Thanks for the reply aragorn,

    At least I'm one step closer, yeah I read about VAGtacho, but some people mentioned you would need to use VAGtacho to read the SKC pin and retrieve it, then use VAG-COM to code the key as using Vagtacho can cause issues?

    Just want to confirm, the car priming the pump then starting and running for a couple of seconds then dying is typical immobiliser playing up? I have noticed the pump cuts out once the car is started like it get a shut down signal from the ecu, like just after starting....hard to explain does that sound like the symptoms?

    don't really want to loose the car as the spec is pretty good: K04, upgraded fuel pump, FMIC, and a phase 3 chip so it's a pretty good motor really well for me anyway and I just want the damn thing to work.
    #32
  33. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    Yeh thats standard IMMO cutout.

    Isnt the light flashing away on the dashboard too?
    #33
  34. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Yeah every so often it was 3 beeps with a warning symbol in the DIS screen didn't do it every time but it did do it quite a bit when trying to start it.
    #34
  35. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Pleased to annoced its finally working, great to drive and pulls for fun,


    Not much else to say right now as I'm having waaaay to much fun getting used to it :D

    Been grinning all day like a brain donor tbh, anyway most of the circuit board in the ecu was fried for some reason so all fixed and patched up.]


    Now issues right now apart from a annoying leaking power steering reservoir. :D


    Thanks,

    James
    :
    #35
  36. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Also would like to extend my gratitude to the people that chimed in to help, and thank you all ever so much for helping :)
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  37. NineNails
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    NineNails Proud sponsor of the snack food industry

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    Happy it's running but what do you mean by fried? like burnt or something, or just a failed component? Seems odd...
    #37
  38. _JMills
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    _JMills Member

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    Like the circuits we over loaded and killed most of the components luckily the chip I had on the board was ok but everything else way burnt or melted from being discharged and charged, that's what the ecu place put in their report :S
    #38
  39. PAULF
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    PAULF Member

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    Good news for you!
    For future reference, who did you send it to?
    #39
  40. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    So did you replace the ECU?
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