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Still worth having a diesel??

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by dalepearson, May 16, 2008.

  1. dalepearson
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    dalepearson Member

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    Hiya Guys,

    couple of years ago I had a 2.0T S-Line DSG A3, but I sold it to fund another purchase, and got myself a diesel Toyota Auris, I wont go into the details but it had to go as the MPG was terrible, worse than the A3.

    Anyway I ordered my A3 2.0TDI 170 S-Line A3 and I should get it end of June. However at the moment I have a Polo GTI on lease, and its not a bad motor and I am getting 40MPG on the motorway. Well I filled it up yesterday and noticed the 10p a litre difference between petrol and diesel.

    Got me thinking, is the diesel going to give me enough more mpg to compensate for the large gap between fuels.

    What are others thoughts?

    D
    #1
  2. MikeS4
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    MikeS4 MikeS4

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    i've never run a diesel myself, but don't they also burn a lot more oil then petrol cars. another extra cost worth bearing in mind..
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  3. dalepearson
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    dalepearson Member

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    I think the VAG cars do, my Toyota was fine, but I know some VAG petrols use a fair amount of oil.

    Its mainly fuel I am thinking about, to late now thought.

    Still worth a discussion though.
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  4. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Two things to consider:
    You will always get better fuel economy from the oil burner...I can drive my vRS like a hooligan and still get mid 40s MPG...drive steady and 55-60 is easy.
    So it still makes sense despite the additional cost per litre.

    Diesels seem more relaxing to drive..lots more low down torque than petrol cars...you get used to not needing to use the gearbox much. I like that for an everyday car.



    And my TDI uses no more oil than my 1.8T or 2.0 8/16v VAG engines I've had before.
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  5. fingermouse
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    fingermouse thats me

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    think I read that the pay back milage was getting up to 55k betwwen diesels and petrol cars.

    I have the S3 and my wife a 2ltr gttdi golf the golf is a wonderful drive and is returning 46mpg average.

    think the 170`s can be a little thirstier but I agree with Glen the oil burners are a more relaxing drive.
    #5
  6. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    For me. my diesel Passat makes sense, I'm averaging around 40mpg per fill, which isn't fantastic, but I use it mainly in town and carrying heavy loads for my business. I had a petrol one before which only got around 25mpg, so despite diesel costing a bit more, you can see it makes sense for me.
    To compare a VW Polo and an Audi A3 doesn't really make it a fair comparison, it has to be like for like.
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  7. dalepearson
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    dalepearson Member

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    Sorry I wasnt making a comparison really, it was more about the fact of 10p difference between fuels.
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  8. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    10p difference really pales into insignificance when you're getting at least 30% more miles per litre. Using more oil? How much oil do you have to get through for this to even be a factor? If you're going to that level of detail then you should also consider the road tax reduction for a diesel which should more than pay for a shed load of oil. Having said that my A4 quattro gets through far more oil than our TDi, and it does far less miles.
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  9. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    In between oil changes on my A4 tdi i never needed to top the oil up once.
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  10. auditek
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    auditek Member

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    i agree with james, my a4 avant has never needed topped up between services, in all the 4 years ive had, my astravan the same and it gets thrashed to death,
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  11. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    My Passat had 76k miles when I brought it, it's now got 153k miles and never needed an oil top up between services, and it's been rinning chipped power for the last 60k miles!
    #11
  12. fingermouse
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    fingermouse thats me

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    have to top up the oil on the 2ltr Tdi golf, once or twice between services.
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  13. jcs356
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    jcs356 Brum brum

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    'Honest John' who writes in the Telegraph every Saturday has now started recommending that people don't buy second hand diesels - which is a major about turn for him.

    This isn't based upon the 10p difference in pump price, rather TDi cars from 4 - 5 years ago are proving to need more spending in the garage than anticipated - injectors, fuel pumps, turbo etc.

    I'm guessing this is based upon the fact that a diesel car would pay back the initial higher cost in better MPG but if there are bigger repair bills needed in due course then the sums don't necessarily add up.
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  14. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    I've not experienced many problems in my derv in 80k miles or so, apart from general wear and tear, I've had to replace the temp sensore once, brake switch twice and MAF once, all of which I did myself. Despite paying a premium to own a diesel in the first place, residuals are good for my car, as I have the desireable estate model.
    It's a balancing act at the end of the day, and my Passat has really paid itself off with good mpg and residuals since I brought it used in the first place.
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  15. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I second that, our TDi returns an average of 48mpg, has done nearly 190k miles and only required a new turbo & clutch in all that time. Both of which would have been required on a 1.8T with that mileage. My petrol A4 has done 160k miles and has needed a new steering rack, exhaust, clutch in addition to usual maintenance and returns half the mpg. No idea where "honest john" gets his data but it's clearly inaccurate.
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  16. lil_coz
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    lil_coz Active Member

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    If your question is "Which is cheaper to run, diesel or petrol?" I'd say the answer is deafinately diesel. My car has only done 5K miles but i'm easily averaging mid to high 40mpg. You would get nowhere near this figure with petrol models. Difference in petrol prices is about 10% where as diesel could give you as much as 35-40% more in miles.
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  17. Road Razor
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    Road Razor Member

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    The price of diesel cars usually cost more than the equivalent petrol version, but the way things are going at the moment. 1. Diesel cars are outselling petrol 2. high fuel prices and its set to get worse (people opt for more economic cars) 3. high road tax prices (diesel gives lower CO2). No doubt there will be in higher demand for diesel cars therefore they'll hold their value even more.
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  18. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Don't see any cars holding their value these days (unless it's something very old or exotic). More diesels on the roads as company cars mean more available 2nd hand which means bigger choice and thus bargains to be had, so whichever way you look at it they are easily the best option if you do anything other than low mileage. It's a no-brainer.
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  19. Les 51
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    Les 51 A pint of Diesel please!

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    Well my 2.5tdi is averaging about 34mpg atm!! This is mainly little B roads.
    Do I think it is worth buying a diesel now? it costs me over £70 to fill up and if I'm lucky I'll get approximately 470 miles for that.
    Unless diesel comes down by quite a bit I'll probably be buying petrol next!
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  20. rodenal
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    rodenal Active Member

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    To be fair the 2.5tdi vag units are renowned for being very uneconomic

    similar to the old bmw 325tds diesels, struggled to do 35mpg in some cases.

    Any other diesel tho and i agree its a no brainer. I have a 1.8tdci focus as a company car, it gets driven hard and returns a genuine 48mpg average. On the motorway if i was sitting a steady 75-80 it'd easily hit 55.

    As said above its also a much more relaxing motorway drive with a diesel, i'd never have a petrol as a car to do lots of miles in, even a turbo.
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  21. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Yes my V10 twin turbo diesel doesn't get anywhere near the stated economy detailed in the handbook either!
    No idea why people buy the V6 if they want economy. You can get better mpg from a petrol turbo.
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  22. Crazyfool
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    Crazyfool Lead boot

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    I still think it depends on your mileage per year. I did a comparison between the 2.0T and 2.0TDI back a while ago when petrol and diesel were the same price; where I found that running both for five years taking into consideration value, tax, consumption, servicing, mileage per year, etc, I was only saving about £500 overall having a diesel.

    Everybody is complaining about the price of pertol/diesel going up, but at the end of the day can we really see it going back down. I remember the days when I used to fill my mk1 Astra for just over £20's.

    There is a lot to consider these days, some diesel cars are now cheaper than their petrol equivelant...but petrol cars are starting to improve. 1.4T for example is more economical, has better performance than a 1.6 and is cheeper to tax.

    You need to take everything into consideration, rather than just looking at mpg. One of the auto mags proved this earlier on in the year. The smaller the car, the more mileage you would have to do to get a return from a diesel.

    I will be doing my calcs again before I purchase my car next year.
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  23. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Well durrrr! If you do no mileage then of course there's no benefit.
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  24. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    Again, we have to compare like for like. Your 2.5TDI I'm guessing is a Quattro model, so you was always going to get a few mpg less having the extra weight and transmission losses of 4WD. My comparison with your car would probably be a 2.8/3.0 Quattro in terms of performance, and how much mpg do they get? Around 25 at best I reckon, so you're not doing too badly in my book. If
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  25. Crazyfool
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    Crazyfool Lead boot

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    Just to give you an idea; the mileage I think was about 20k per year and based on this you would get a return on your diesel after 40k for a Mercedes E class, 70k for a 3 series (that's over 3 years worth of driving before a return bearing in mind some of the lucky people amongst us may consider changing their car by then!) and 120k for a Pug 1006.

    I hear quite a few people these days who own a diesel say that they are now considering changing to petrol.

    At the end of the day it comes down to personal circumstances and preferred driving style...The choice is your.
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  26. rodenal
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    rodenal Active Member

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    It's swings and roundaboutsBuying new i would certainly have a hard time deciding due to the cost of diesel cars. However i would never buy a new car due to the immediate loss in value - just personal opinion.Buying second hand and if you do a fair amount of miles, 20k or more a year i'd say not buying a diesel is just silly. You might have to buy a year older Golf/A3 etc than if you were buying a petrol but lets face it, a year is bugger all and if you buy a dog it'll be a dog no matter how new it is.The new 1.4T petrols make a good case for themselves but i imagine people will look down on them as 'base models' although i can fully imagine they drive well.Doubt you'll see a realistic mpg of over 38 with them tho, and with a similarly priced diesel car again you'll be hitting 47-50mpg easily.
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  27. rodenal
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    rodenal Active Member

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    BTW The (lack of) spacing and paragraphs above are not my fault, the forum seems to like removing my punctuation
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  28. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    Cost saving arguments aside, I like other benefits associated with diesel.
    I travel from Aberdeen to the North of England/Midlands quite a lot, to support Tottenham.
    I love the fact a diesel's tank range can get me down to any North/Midlands game without having to stop, and sometimes a good way back up too.
    It makes a helluva difference to your journey time, it really does.
    For example, I can comfortably do Blackburn in about 3.5 hours, Manchester in 4.5 hours.
    Set off at 9am, watch the game, back home in time to watch it again on MOTD!
    I also like the fact the tank range means, for day to day running around, I don't have to visit a filling station as often.
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  29. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    No idea how you worked that out, but it's plainly wrong.
    20k miles a year equates to £2,367 of derv @ 48mpg (which is what my 1.9 130 averages over 72 hours of driving) at £1.25 per litre
    The same equation on a typical 30mpg petrol = £3,484 of unleaded @ £1.15 per litre
    So saving £1100 per year.

    You can't take new car prices into account unless you can show me 2 vehicles identical in every way apart from the engine. Yes the diesel maybe be more money, but will also hold its value better, so it really is a calculation that can't be perfectly accurate.
    As for trading a TDi in for a puny 1.4, by that rationale you might as well trade it in for a scooter if you have that little self respect.
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  30. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Cost saving aside...

    A 75 BHP petrol vs a 75 BHP diesel will have the TDI being the nicer to drive due to lots more low down torque and real world better performance...same goes for 150 BHP petrol vs 150 BHP diesel and 200 BHP petrol vs 200 BHP diesel...the diesels always have more low down grunt.

    So they are more relaxing to drive...and in my experience have 'better' motorway overtaking potential.

    A diesel will in most cases not reward like a petrol for those who like to rev their engine...but as a relaxed way of getting about, I'm converted.
    I simply cannot see myself buying another petrol as an everyday car as the diesel is just so much more relaxing and lazy to drive, and often making just as good progress with much less effort.
    The fact that I'll get 50% more MPG is a bonus as I only do 7000ish miles per year.
    and even with low annual milages..I'd still take another diesel over a petrol as an everyday car.

    As a hot hatch to do trackdays in? No...
    But for everyday use...yes.
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  31. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    I cohose diesel for Claires car, the family wagon, even though it'll only cover a max of 10K miles a year. But second hand the price difference is negotiable. It averages about 24mpg and costs about £100 to fill up. But it is so much nicer to driver than the petrol version.

    J.
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  32. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    24mpg & £100 to fill up? What on earth did you buy her, a double decker bus?
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  33. rodenal
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    rodenal Active Member

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    Or a tourareg V10 or somethin? lol
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  34. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    LOL...Close, about the same size as a bus. ML 320cdi
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  35. quattrojames
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    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    :lmfao:
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  36. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm guessing you don't like her much!
    ML's the doggiest of 4x4 dogs, and that's up against some pretty stiff opposition.
    #36
  37. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    Hear hear.
    The wife's 86bhp Clio has 200nm of torque.
    It's petrol sister has 105nm of torque.
    So I'd have to thrash the paps off it to get anywhere.
    As it is, the wife's car breezed through a family weekend from Aberdeen to Alton Towers, no problem at all.
    Family friends came with us in their behemoth Grand Voyager (petrol...).
    Not only were they astonished at the turn of pace the wee Clio could muster, but they were positively green with envy when they kept having to fill up, and we didn't.:respekt:
    #37
  38. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    Really? All the reviews say pretty much the same about it. Nice to drive only downside is that it only has 5 seats.
    #38
  39. rodenal
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    rodenal Active Member

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    He was perhaps talking about the old ones which were hideous to look at and driveand built by somebody who knows as much about putting cars together as i do, and therefor inside and out fell apart worryingly quickly
    #39
  40. rodenal
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    rodenal Active Member

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    I am intruiged tho. This isn't meant as any sort of dig i'm genuinely wondering as i doubt i'll ever be in a position to consider having anything like an ML as a second car.....What is it that makes you want a 4x4 when it drinks so much, costs so much and doesnt drive as nicely as the equivalent Estate/saloon? I just dont really get it tbh, seems a real waste of money.
    #40

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