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Star Performance Testing Day – Pt5 Power Figures

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Ess_Three, Feb 19, 2004.

  1. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    The factual bit:

    I spent many hours down at Star Performance yesterday…12 hours in fact (08:45-20:45) having a play…testing a few things, having a load of work done, trying out a few things etc.

    Firstly, thanks to Jim & Brian…12 hours and two meals later we were all knackered!
    Credit where it’s due…anyone looking for decent service, advice and standard of work could do a lot worse than giving them a shout.

    Secondly, none of this was free…labour rates, wheel alignment rates, dyno time, replacement parts…all paid for out of my pocket...I have the invoice for over £900 to prove it!!

    Thirdly, these are our (mine, Jim’s and Brian’s) observations based upon our findings. All testing carried out with conditions kept as close to previous conditions as possible etc…some will disagree violently, some will agree…that’s your prerogative.



    So, Puzzle me this:

    If my car makes more torque than any other S3 Star Performance has ever dynod - which it does....and it makes decent power on decent high octane fuel - which it does...

    And it takes me 2 x bespoke ICs including a FMIC, Samco hoses everywhere, 1.7 bar of boost, modified airbox, coil air feed, K&N filter, modified throttle body, de-restricted turbo outlet pipe, APR Optimax software, Milltek cats, Milltek exhaust etc...to make about 200 BHP @ wheels / 310 lb-ft of torque...

    How can 'other' tuners get much more power 280, 290+ BHP and over 300 lb-ft of torque from just a simple re-map.

    One instance I know of it a re-mapped S3 that shows just over 1.0 bar but according to the dyno chart makes 300 lb-ft ot torque. How's that work?


    My figures are (averaged):
    About 200 BHP @ wheels.
    About 310 lb-ft torque
    ...and if you really want the totally irrelevant and calculated (often fudged) flywheel figure it's about 265-270 BHP.
    ...and yes, the car was run in 4 WD mode....and yes, it was a fight to get it run!


    Can anyone explain this to me? As i'm obviously missing something?

    Is the air less dense north of the border?
    Does fluctuations in electricity supply make for differences in the operation of rolling roads?
    Is there a glitch in the matrix?


    Either way...it doesn't add up.

    Rant over. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif
    #1
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  3. RAPS3
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    RAPS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ess_Three said:

    How can 'other' tuners get much more power 280, 290+ BHP and over 300 lb-ft of torque from just a simple re-map.

    One instance I know of it a re-mapped S3 that shows just over 1.0 bar but according to the dyno chart makes 300 lb-ft ot torque. How's that work?

    Can anyone explain this to me? As i'm obviously missing something?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Glen you've already answered this yourself...

    [ QUOTE ]
    ...and if you really want the totally irrelevant and calculated (often fudged) flywheel figure

    [/ QUOTE ]


    [ QUOTE ]
    Is the air less dense north of the border?
    Does fluctuations in electricity supply make for differences in the operation of rolling roads?
    Is there a glitch in the matrix?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Or it may be the fact that other tuners use a different Flux capacitor. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif


    [ QUOTE ]
    Either way...it doesn't add up.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No but it does make it good for a marketing gimmick.

    #2
  4. AL_B
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    AL_B Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    Glen,

    Excellent posts mate. Factual and testing that was as near scientific as you could achieve. Very impressed.

    I think the power figures that tuners publish are the "calculated" and "expected" figure at the flywheel aren't they? How that "calculated" flywheel figure is worked out is anyones guess, and may vary from tuner to tuner. We all know they should publish the expected figure at the wheels - but that isn't as big a headline is it?

    AL
    #3
  5. 603ELO
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    603ELO Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    The only car that I have had chipped was a 97 golf 16v about 1 year ago with a well known midlands tuner.

    Figures produced were pure fiction.

    Suposedly was a 'good one' as had nearly 160bhp before they started and 172 bhp when finished. Still felt cr*p.
    I have had cars with a genuine 170bhp before and believe me this do not feel anything like it!

    Makes a mockery out of chipping. Think I will give my £500 to the firm that can give me 300 bhp out of my 1.8t so long as thay can give me a fancy bit of paper that I can show everyone!

    #4
  6. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ju said:
    The only car that I have had chipped was a 97 golf 16v about 1 year ago with a well known midlands tuner.

    Figures produced were pure fiction.

    Suposedly was a 'good one' as had nearly 160bhp before they started and 172 bhp when finished. Still felt cr*p.
    I have had cars with a genuine 170bhp before and believe me this do not feel anything like it!


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I am dying to open a can of whoop ass on this one!
    I have a similar experience...but i'm not sure this is the time or the place for it...


    [ QUOTE ]

    Makes a mockery out of chipping. Think I will give my £500 to the firm that can give me 300 bhp out of my 1.8t so long as thay can give me a fancy bit of paper that I can show everyone!


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes it does...
    But people want HUGE numbers in order to make their penis appear larger that that of their peers down the local wine bar. Don't they? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    I have around 200 BHP at the wheels...and just a shade over 300 lb-ft. I'm happy with that...and I'll put my 265 flywheel BHP against any 280, 290 or 300 BHP standard turbo / standard ECU's S3 I come accross.

    Scottish horses are very strong!
    #5
  7. MingBluS3
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    MingBluS3 Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    what is a standard 210 S3's BHP at the wheels?
    #6
  8. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    MingBluS3 said:
    what is a standard 210 S3's BHP at the wheels?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    160-170ish!?! Get a fair bit of power loss through the tranny

    Rich
    #7
  9. MingBluS3
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    MingBluS3 Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    just out of curiosity what is a subaru impreza bhp at the wheels, my mate has a P reg Impreza turbo and i raced him the other night, he recons he wasnt pushing it and i did notice him gaining on me at one point.

    But then again he did not get infront or me and he is the sort of bloke who has to WIN!.
    #8
  10. speedyp
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    speedyp Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    Probably similar power but a lighter car!!

    The S3 is very heavy.... as I found out at Santa Pod whilst pushing it in the queue to save keep starting.
    #9
  11. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    PeterS3 said:
    Probably similar power but a lighter car!!

    The S3 is very heavy.... as I found out at Santa Pod whilst pushing it in the queue to save keep starting.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    They are a lard arses arent they! I always push mine in the queue.. Dont want it getting all hot now do we /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Rich
    #10
  12. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    RichA3Turbo said:

    160-170ish!?! Get a fair bit of power loss through the tranny

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Steady on Rich...
    You'd more likely see that on a high output FWD car...

    S3's seem to make about 140 BHP @ wheels standard based upon a 210 BHP start...a drop of about 70 BHP would be about right.

    Imprezas tend to loose a bit more...them and proper quattro Audis..maybe about 80 BHP dropped for them.

    Now, how accurate these figures are is anyones guess, as the method of measuring the values is debatable...but Star Performances rollers show these sort of losses...mine was making about 138 / 140 @ wheels standard when new and tight.

    The thing that makes reliable Haldex transmission losses hard to measure appears to be the Haldex dissconnecting the drive to the rear when measuring the coastdown values...so in effect you may well be measuring front wheels, gearbox, transfer box and propshaft but not rear shafts and wheels...not the lot.
    This could make the corrected power differ from place to place....it would also account for Haldex quattros showing less transmission losses than Torsen quattros.

    Because of this, you can onlt really go by thr power at the wheels figures...


    Also, it seems that 210s tend to make slightly over when run in...and 225s slightly under...at best the difference is only 5 - 10 BHP on Star's rollers.
    #11
  13. DuncS3
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    DuncS3 Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    Maybe all the tuners are in cohorts with each other as my car put out 300 lb/ft on one tuners dyno, running a chip from another tuner

    Actually I agree with you - Like the car thats recently made 290 bhp from a chip only. I bet if you compared that car to a P1 (with a couple of big blokes in it), which has a true manafacturers figure of 280 bhp...

    I'm not saying people are fabricating, just they way we measure all these figures and make so much out of headline figures. Remember my car put out 233 bhp on AMDs RR then 260 bhp two months later, exactly same setup. Theres not much logic in all this.

    Dunc
    #12
  14. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ess_Three said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    RichA3Turbo said:

    160-170ish!?! Get a fair bit of power loss through the tranny

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Steady on Rich...
    You'd more likely see that on a high output FWD car...



    [/ QUOTE ]

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif
    #13
  15. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    Hi,
    Interesting this discussion on power at the wheels,just as a bit of background on my previous car a 2wd mr2(no prop) i made 283bhp at the fly and 240whp so roughly a 15% trans loss.A evo dyno'd at the same time made 320bhp and 240whp roughly 25% trans loss.4wd technically torque split i think.It's a hard one for the s3 because of the haldex,but if we assumed it was a normal torque split 4wd box and assuming 25% that would make a standard 210 s3 157.5bhp whp.I heard there is a special way to strap a haldex down on the rollars,anyone heard this?Is there a way to activate the haldex to perminant 4wd i assume that would approx 50:50??torque split?I'll know more when i get my car revo'd as i'm paying extra for a rolling road set-up,regards Ryan
    #14
  16. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ryanc said:
    Hi,
    Interesting this discussion on power at the wheels,just as a bit of background on my previous car a 2wd mr2(no prop) i made 283bhp at the fly and 240whp so roughly a 15% trans loss.A evo dyno'd at the same time made 320bhp and 240whp roughly 25% trans loss.4wd technically torque split i think.It's a hard one for the s3 because of the haldex,but if we assumed it was a normal torque split 4wd box and assuming 25% that would make a standard 210 s3 157.5bhp whp.I heard there is a special way to strap a haldex down on the rollars,anyone heard this?Is there a way to activate the haldex to perminant 4wd i assume that would approx 50:50??torque split?I'll know more when i get my car revo'd as i'm paying extra for a rolling road set-up,regards Ryan

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You CAN get a new haldex ECU which is permanent 50:50 split. Works well apparently... Some places even pull the haldex fuse so that its just fwd, but this is NOT such a great way of doing things.

    Rich
    #15
  17. cyuen
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    cyuen Member

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    wut wut wut, wuts this about a Haldex computer ~
    #16
  18. Banwell
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    Banwell previously LeeS3

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    careful. The haldex system is designed to reduce wear and tear on the running gear - implying that permanent 50:50 dist would seriously damage your car..
    #17
  19. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    I'm not really interested in going permanantly 4wd it's just hard to measure the power at the wheels because the system is continuely switching between haldex and 2wd,also i heard it's proportionally split so it could go from 50:50 to 99:1 but i'm not totally sure as looking at the system it's either engaged or not which means 100:0 or 50:50??guessing a bit ,others may be a bit more knowledgeable on haldex,regards Ryan
    #18
  20. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ryanc said:
    hi barry,
    I still stand by my previous comments that the s3 fuel system is only good for 280bhp at a push.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ryan, you are spot on...i've seen you posting regarding this subject before...and you are absolutely spot on!
    I've logged the injector duty cycles on mine when it's making over 270BHP and the injectors are almost permenantly on...that is there is barely (or even actually) not enough time for the solenoid to switch off before being asked to switch back on again...not a good situation to be in for a fuel injector.

    So, I'm running 1.85+ bar at peak torque...
    1.35 bar at peak power, with the turbo stretched well beyond it's efficiency (or safety) range...
    With injectors almost permenantly on...

    And I'm making 270 ish BHP....with 2 x bespoke ICs to keep the charge air cool (including a FMIC), cats, exhaust, modified turbo pipework, Samco hoses, modified airbox, very aggressive re-map, different N75, inlet manifold insulating gasket...

    So my question is how can some people get over 280BHP from a chip only?

    Answer? They can't.
    It's all lies.
    #19
  21. simont
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    simont Member

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    very interesting thread. I agree that the tuning industry needs to clean up its act regarding power output claims...

    Am I right in thinking that there is already an established 'Standard' for this?? or is it more complex/open to abuse than simple standards.. It is interesting that we are hearing higher BHP figures being quoted recently from AmD's rolling road.

    BTW, it appears that MTM in Germany RR haldex based cars in 2 wheel mode (ie pulling the Haldex fuse)... Kim Collins is doing the same with his new RR. When I asked him (after hearing over the last couple of years that this was bad!!), he stated this gives a more accurate output!!

    So, what's the correct way to rolling road Haldex based cars then??
    #20
  22. Banwell
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    Banwell previously LeeS3

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    Also we shouldn't forget that the ultimately the ECU changes are to iron out any flat spots in the power delivery & ultimately make the car more driveable. All ECU upgrades do this, just some better than others (to the beholder) and usually to a style prefered by the tuner/customer.

    Absolute changes to the power can only be achieve by the costly addition of upgraded mechanical parts ie. FMIC, uprated turbo, etc, etc..

    I keep meaning to ask this, but ultimately if you put the late A. Senna in a bog standard S3 210 and asked him to drag race any Chip/tweaked S3 running approx 270 I am sure that Senna would win the in line quarter mile race?!?
    #21
  23. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    RS4 Barry said:
    Probably not as any monkey can get a good 1/4 mile time provided you are brutal with the car but he would run rings round it on the track!!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Got to agree Barry...
    I see very little real skill in getting fast 1/4 mile times...good technique, yes. but not good driving skill.
    As you say, any muppet can learn how to run a quick 1/4 mile if they are brutal enough.

    To have the ability to make a car to extraordinary things on a track is a skill reserved for only the special few...of which Senna was one of the very best.

    I would guess Senna in a standard A3 1.8T would run rings round all of us in our chipped S3s on the track!!
    #22
  24. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    hi ess three,
    so which of the methods do you use to measure your car whp?1/2/3???What was the method for your 275bhp and 200whp,i might need this info to let my tuner know when i go for the revo,thanks Ryan
    #23
  25. mramage
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    mramage Member

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ess_Three said:
    As for the plug...I don't know which plug. Yet!
    I don't know what it does, or where it is...but the car runs in 4WD and doesn't shift torque about.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, you owe it to us to find out /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    We need to know /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #24
  26. DuncS3
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    DuncS3 Member

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    [Apr 4, 2004]
    Just gotta say, another excellent technical thread on AS.Net - keep it up!

    Dunc
    #25
  27. s8n
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    s8n Member

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    [Apr 4, 2004]
    you can infact use the abs sensor removed to upset the haldex and effeciely switch it off...

    Ive had issues dyno'in my car because it does the same thing, moves all around the place.

    Has anyone tried a Dynapak Hub dyno? bolted to each wheel? I heard these are VERY accurate?
    #26
  28. Bazza
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    Bazza Member

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    [Apr 4, 2004]
    There is certainly a smaller margin for error when using a hub dyno as the possibility of wheelspin is removed - main problem is it's a pain in the ass setting the car up on a hub dyno.
    #27
  29. ANDYTQ
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    ANDYTQ Active Member

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    [Apr 10, 2004]
    Have you tried driving on the road in perminant 4x4,i'm quite intreiged now.Please find out,plleeaassee.Cheers Andy
    #28
  30. Kunit
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    Kunit Member

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    [Nov 12, 2009]
    Rolling roads calculate the loss through the transmission by measuring the drag once the clutch is dropped, it will not matter if the haldex is engaged or not as the rear diff is still causing drag either way. And the figures tuners quote is the flywheel figure, i haven't found any that will quote 280+ for just a remap?
    #29
  31. vetch
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    vetch S3

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    [Nov 12, 2009]
    Why did you make him wait 5 and a half years before you replied? That's just plain rude?
    #30
  32. djb83
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    djb83 redline responsibly

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  33. KB
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    KB Member

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    [Aug 11, 2010]
    :laugh:
    #32
  34. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 12, 2010]
    run 3 is hybrid k04 B5 map
    run 4 is stock k04 revo

    [​IMG]

    gauge and compare
    (seeing the threads appeared out of the ashes, and I have info to compare now)
    #33
  35. Barks
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    Barks Member

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    [Aug 12, 2010]
    Hello Bill what was the Leon running??
    #34
  36. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 13, 2010]
    leon is a 2ltr 20v, catcams, ported head, SEM/80mm, 630cc + 4bar, Apexi-AVC-R, backdraft manifold & DP, Forge supersize DV, large cone filter - ran 25psi peak initial boost, holding 23psi
    #35

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